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According to Northern on X, formally known as Twitter, a Northern service today blocked the line between Deansgate and Piccadilly for a considerable time due to it "stopping in the wrong position"
@NORTHERNASSIST said: Disruption caused by a train not stopping in the correct position at a station earlier today at Manchester Oxford Road has now ended. Services are no longer affected by this problem.
According to Northern on X, formally known as Twitter, a Northern service today blocked the line between Deansgate and Piccadilly for a considerable time due to it "stopping in the wrong position"
According to Northern on X, formally known as Twitter, a Northern service today blocked the line between Deansgate and Piccadilly for a considerable time due to it "stopping in the wrong position"
Platform 3 at Oxford Road, if I'm not mistaken, so an altogether awkward platform with a mid-platform signal that can often be kept at danger and lead to a train (necessarily and legitimately) stopping short of where it needs to be. Been there, done that, thankfully no door release though! Presumably quite a messy situation though with all sorts of factors to consider, including potentially train defects (ASDO?).
Presumably the knock-on effect of the above explains why there were several late running trains at Liverpool Lime Street yesterday, mid afternoon, originating from, or heading to, or beyond, Manchester Oxford Road (via Warrington Central).
Was thinking that, or if it's been brought to a stand at the mid-signal (436, P4) as there was a delayed northern service moving off P3 as it arrived meaning 436 won't clear until that's out of the next section. Good driver (although you must never expect it) reminds guard that we ain't all gonna fit, as I had many times from some of the best drivers at that platform.
Occy Rd is one of them stations you've always asking yourself 'is the back on?' - especially with the curve.
Platform 3 heading eastbound (Piccadilly direction) will only accommodate 5 carriages due to the 2nd signal position. So that's a big risk in itself with 6 car formations. It looks to have been a double 331 formation, so a manual SDO override will have been required by the conductor from the 5th carriage to go forward only. It would seem the conductor did the SDO override in both directions, causing the operational incident.
Interestingly a double 323 formation cannot use platform 3 eastbound as there is no SDO system on board to isolate the rear coach.
Probably unreleated, but my commute home yesterday was a 6-car on the Chat Moss that was having repeated problems getting the doors to open, as if the SDO wasn't functioning properly. They wouldn't open at all at Broad Green, and the guard had to buzz the driver who moved the train forward a few feet; that did the trick, even though we appeared to be stopped in the correct position anyway.
I hope this incident doesn't dissuade Northern from running 6-cars on the Chat Moss. It's been fantastic these past few weeks to finally have trains big enough to accomodate the passengers!
I wonder, by contrast, how many such incidents you get with the much simpler Unit Deselect used on the 350s? I don't think I've ever seen a wrong release on a 350.
The SDO system on the CAFs does appear incredibly complex for a guard operated train, though I guess they weren't originally intended to be guard operated.
I wonder, by contrast, how many such incidents you get with the much simpler Unit Deselect used on the 350s? I don't think I've ever seen a wrong release on a 350.
The SDO system on the CAFs does appear incredibly complex for a guard operated train, though I guess they weren't originally intended to be guard operated.
The CAF system isn’t that bad. The biggest fall down is in a multi platform station. The system needs to be told which platform it’s entering. Because there’s no agreement for drivers to use the ASDO, other than to set it up on the trains first journey of the day, the only way for the guard to release the doors is to override the system.
One of the routes I drive, I always wondered as you never know from the front really and all the platforms are the length of the train-ish, until 1 day a manager and trainee took my train off me and I sat in the back cab and could see the tolerance we had, made me feel a lot more comfortable for sure
Probably unreleated, but my commute home yesterday was a 6-car on the Chat Moss that was having repeated problems getting the doors to open, as if the SDO wasn't functioning properly. They wouldn't open at all at Broad Green, and the guard had to buzz the driver who moved the train forward a few feet; that did the trick, even though we appeared to be stopped in the correct position anyway.
I hope this incident doesn't dissuade Northern from running 6-cars on the Chat Moss. It's been fantastic these past few weeks to finally have trains big enough to accomodate the passengers!
I wonder, by contrast, how many such incidents you get with the much simpler Unit Deselect used on the 350s? I don't think I've ever seen a wrong release on a 350.
The SDO system on the CAFs does appear incredibly complex for a guard operated train, though I guess they weren't originally intended to be guard operated.
It's not particularly complex, but Northern choose to override it all the time changing their instructions about the precise correct way to do it seemingly every few months for the past several years of using them (everywhere, or only where it doesn't know which platform you're in, or only where there is actually a short platform). As a result it's not exactly possible to be completely confident in what it's going to do, even if you do know, you probably won't be confident. There's also a risk if you toggle incorrectly you override the doors that aren't on the platform while keeping the ones that are locked.
For example a six car 323 opens all doors at Mauldeth Road, as this is the only option other than just opening one door, but on a six car 331 the conductor must override the rear door only, even though it's on the platform. In the unlikely event your train has correct information on the screens and announcements, it still won't tell you when this happens, because it can't handle just one door in a coach being released.
Finally the announcements and screens never work and there's no way of knowing which carriage you're in so telling the customer to be in the front three carriages is utterly meaningless to them. The coaches all look exactly the same and even the letters are repeated in both halves. This is part of the reason why it takes so long to release doors on Northern. The short platform information at stations is almost always wrong. There are new posters up at Liverpool Lime Street and even those posters show the wrong coaches. At non Northern managed stations there doesn't seem to be any short platform information on the screens.
Finally, when the SDO is overridden it frequently causes the "Door not in use" sign to illuminate on all doors, include while the door release button is illuminated and as the door actually opens. Accordingly the vast majority of regular passengers on 195/331 routes have learnt sensibly to ignore any "Door not in use" sign and assume the door will open anyway. As I'm sure you will agree that's something of a problem...
As someone who has signed both 331s and 385s, this is probably a root cause of so many problems.
The 385s are simpler in that each car is either accommodated or it's not, even if one door is on the platform. And considering the number of issues with 331s (and 195s), which is still not reliable six years after introduction you have got start asking questions.
Other than an odd occasion where a 385 has lost where it is, i've never heard of similar issues with 385s, unlike some of the issues that have happened to conductors working 195/331s.
The CAF system isn’t that bad. The biggest fall down is in a multi platform station. The system needs to be told which platform it’s entering. Because there’s no agreement for drivers to use the ASDO, other than to set it up on the trains first journey of the day, the only way for the guard to release the doors is to override the system.
IMO the driver shouldn't be turning to focus on making an input on a display screen that is 90 degrees from their windscreen, when entering a platform number at a major station, and likely travelling towards buffers or a red signal. Their focus should solely be on driving the train. The screens are not particularly responsive either so can be extremely frustrating to use, an added distraction.
IMO the driver shouldn't be turning to focus on making an input on a display screen that is 90 degrees from their windscreen, when entering a platform number at a major station, and likely travelling towards buffers or a red signal. Their focus should solely be on driving the train. The screens are not particularly responsive either so can be extremely frustrating to use.
If there was an agreement for drivers to be involved with releasing doors then I’m sure they would wait until stopped, just as on current DOO services. I suspect the CAF ASDO was designed with DOO in mind.
However, while there’s no agreement for drivers to open the doors then they’re stuck in this middle ground of having ASDO which requires overriding by guards at any multi-platform station.
That wouldn't be possible unless guards didn't release the doors till driver had done so. This could be a delay of a few seconds or longer depending on the priorities.
At present the ASDO panels in the cab are only operable with a drivers key in the desk. It may be that guards should be allowed to use the ASDO screen, this can allow them to then set the arrival platform, or if they are unable to access the cab (eg train full and standing and can't get to cab) they can override as they do at present. It wouldn't totally solve all the issues, as it's still a fairly 'dumb' version of ASDO which requires the driver to stop in the correct position and for it to be configured correctly - there was a recent incident with a platform extension that wasn't completed but had been uploaded to the units as being completed ready and so doors where released onto a closed section of incomplete platform - this wasn't the guard (or drivers) fault.
One other thing that isn't helped is I believe guards do not know which doors are locked out and which aren't unless they check the screen in cab, or look at the doors to see which have the red 'Door not in use' illuminated. They will learn through route learning and just working the trains but should something occur out of the ordinary it's a totally different method of work compared to every other train they work where it's more of a manual process, though that's not saying it doesn't happen with the legacy fleet either, I would definitely say it's a rarer occasion.
These trains they're working are also long and they have no aids other than there own eye sight as to whether the train is on the platform where it should be or not is likely another factor. Of course if they're unsure they should walk and check, but this could cause a delay and then they don't want to have to explain themselves etc.
I believe the CAF units (195/331) do have the technology on board to use ASDO beacons but this is turned off, is this something whereby it should be looked into using them at stations where beacons are already provided for TPE etc? Of course, this is hypothetical and I'm not 100% on them having the correct tech
Even if the drivers were willing to accept releasing the doors (they may do if offered a large enough pay rise but I don't think it's ever been discussed at Northern? I also suspect that there are any number of far more pressing uses for that money) I think it's pretty clear the conductors would strike again if they had it taken away from them...
Unless your suggestion is for the driver to enable the doors and then the conductor to release them after receiving a bell indicating they can? In which case that would be perhaps the only possibility that actually takes longer than the current (very slow) process Northern use.
For example a six car 323 opens all doors at Mauldeth Road, as this is the only option other than just opening one door, but on a six car 331 the conductor must override the rear door only, even though it's on the platform.
I note mention of the *Door not in use" usually lit up on all CAF doors, I really don't know how this was passed out by the ORR and RSSB - it is an essential function to indicate to passengers that a door has malfunctioned and is locked out of use - NOT this door won't open bcoz asdo, bcoz were not there yet etc.
I note mention of the *Door not in use" usually lit up on all CAF doors, I really don't know how this was passed out by the ORR and RSSB - it is an essential function to indicate to passengers that a door has malfunctioned and is locked out of use - NOT this door won't open bcoz asdo, bcoz were not there yet etc.
Indeed. In my opinion the trains should never have been permitted to carry passengers until all of these things were changed. My guess is that would mean most of the CAF stock still hadn't entered service now over 5 years later.
If there was an agreement for drivers to be involved with releasing doors then I’m sure they would wait until stopped, just as on current DOO services. I suspect the CAF ASDO was designed with DOO in mind.
However, while there’s no agreement for drivers to open the doors then they’re stuck in this middle ground of having ASDO which requires overriding by guards at any multi-platform station.
It sounds like the usual bugger’s muddle of new trains not being correctly specified for the circumstances in which they are to be operated. See also the 701s!
I note mention of the *Door not in use" usually lit up on all CAF doors, I really don't know how this was passed out by the ORR and RSSB - it is an essential function to indicate to passengers that a door has malfunctioned and is locked out of use - NOT this door won't open bcoz asdo, bcoz were not there yet etc.
Do you mean the indication that comes on all the time when you’re standing by the door expecting it to open at the station, so you go and find another door, only to see the door you were standing next to open?
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