Advance Single with Specified Journey for Part of Train

[fishball]

Hi! I was recently on a SWR service that was delayed over an hour, with my full ticket being an advance single from Sheffield to Basingstoke. The ticket only specifies a specific EMR train from Sheffield to St Pancras, and upon asking staff at the Sheffield ticket office I was told I could take any train from London to Basingstoke.

Trying to claim delay repay from SWR now but was just told my ticket was somehow not valid for the journey. May I know why?

 

[drueberflug]

Sheffield station staff were only right in parts, as the specific train for your connection from Waterloo is not fixed, but must still be reasonable.
Furthermore, your ticket does not allow for a break in your journey.

 

[fishball]

Sheffield station staff were only right in parts, as the specific train for your connection from Waterloo is not fixed, but must still be reasonable.
Furthermore, your ticket does not allow for a break in your journey.

The delayed SWR train departed Waterloo around 40 minutes after the EMR train arrived into St Pancras. The ticket included a London connection so I got the tube from St Pancras to Waterloo. Does this count as reasonable?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not "reasonable" but it must respect the minimum connection across London, i.e. you must be able to get an itinerary for it. Often you can get across London much quicker but then you don't get Delay Repay based on that train. I've always taken it that if you arrived late by an official itinerary but actually travelled on an earlier train than that itinerary you could still claim for the difference, e.g. if the train you took was an hour and a bit late but the one you should have taken was 30 minutes later then you should have a 30 minute claim, but perhaps some TOCs take it more strictly than that. Or perhaps they're talking rubbish and you should appeal.

Could you post precisely which trains you used and we can see?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2025 ==

The delayed SWR train departed Waterloo around 40 minutes after the EMR train arrived into St Pancras. The ticket included a London connection so I got the tube from St Pancras to Waterloo. Does this count as reasonable?

I suspect that's too tight, but in my view you should still have a claim, albeit not a 60 minute one. Though it is slightly debatable as to what to do if you cross London faster than the official times allow.

Can you post your exact itinerary?

 

[fishball]

Not "reasonable" but it must respect the minimum connection across London, i.e. you must be able to get an itinerary for it. Often you can get across London much quicker but then you don't get Delay Repay based on that train. I've always taken it that if you arrived late by an official itinerary but actually travelled on an earlier train than that itinerary you could still claim for the difference, e.g. if the train you took was an hour and a bit late but the one you should have taken was 30 minutes later then you should have a 30 minute claim, but perhaps some TOCs take it more strictly than that. Or perhaps they're talking rubbish and you should appeal.

Could you post precisely which trains you used and we can see?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2025 ==



I suspect that's too tight, but in my view you should still have a claim, albeit not a 60 minute one. Though it is slightly debatable as to what to do if you cross London faster than the official times allow.

Can you post your exact itinerary?

Hi, thank you for your reply.
My trains were
1437 EMR Sheffield - St Pancras
1723 SWR Waterloo - Basingstoke

 

[yorkie]

Hi, thank you for your reply.
My trains were
1437 EMR Sheffield - St Pancras
1723 SWR Waterloo - Basingstoke

It's not clear when you travelled, but based on today's timetable, that isn't a valid connection, so your "booked" arrival time into Basingstoke would be 18:15.

What day did you travel? What was stated in your itinerary? What time did you actually arrive at Basingstoke?

 

[jfollows]

The delayed SWR train departed Waterloo around 40 minutes after the EMR train arrived into St Pancras. The ticket included a London connection so I got the tube from St Pancras to Waterloo. Does this count as reasonable?

No.
The minimum connection time is 51 minutes.
You may well be able to make a tighter connection than this, but this is the minimum time any through itinerary will honour, and needs to be followed for any itinerary you construct yourself in order to be eligible for Delay Repay.
However the minimum connection time is based on timetabled arrival and departure time of the two trains.
The trains you mention today were 16:39-17:23 which is not long enough.

 

[fishball]

It's not clear when you travelled, but based on today's timetable, that isn't a valid connection, so your "booked" arrival time into Basingstoke would be 18:15.

What day did you travel? What was stated in your itinerary? What time did you actually arrive at Basingstoke?

I couldn’t find the original email for my booking, but the travel date was May 29th and the arrival time was around 1910 if I remember correctly. Definitely over 1 hour late.

 

[drueberflug]

but the travel date was May 29th and the arrival time was around 1910 if I remember correctly. Definitely over 1 hour late.

Unfortunately, after looking up your trains, that has not been a valid through itinerary as you've only had 44 minutes between arrival at St Pancras and departure at Waterloo, which is below the minimum connection time of 51 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately, after looking up your trains, that has not been a valid through itinerary as you've only had 44 minutes between arrival at St Pancras and departure at Waterloo, which is below the minimum connection time of 51 minutes.

That it may not be, but I don't see why the OP shouldn't have a claim based on when they arrived vs. the itinerary they should have used. I've claimed that way before. SWR seem to have said the ticket was not valid which as far as I can tell is absolute rubbish.

 

[Haywain]

SWR seem to have said the ticket was not valid which as far as I can tell is absolute rubbish.

Both the booked train and the train actually used are reservable trains so the ticket would be, technically, invalid on the earlier train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both the booked train and the train actually used are reservable trains so the ticket would be, technically, invalid on the earlier train.

If nothing was printed on the ticket to that effect, as it seems there was not, then I think that is highly questionable.

I know there was work to stop printing "booked trains" on walk up tickets where there was no actual seat reservation, because in that context a counted place is meaningless. But has that erroneously been extended to Advances?

 

[jfollows]

That it may not be, but I don't see why the OP shouldn't have a claim based on when they arrived vs. the itinerary they should have used. I've claimed that way before. SWR seem to have said the ticket was not valid which as far as I can tell is absolute rubbish.

I agree, but the original poster needs to phrase the claim carefully to demonstrate the booked time on the valid train from Waterloo more than 51 minutes later than booked arrival at Saint Pancras (presumably first service at 17:30 or later) and with its booked arrival at Basingstoke versus the actual arrival in Basingstoke. This was the 17:35, due 18:15 in Basingstoke, ironically cancelled. Actual arrival time was 19:12 by getting an earlier service which was then delayed. So 57 minutes delayed. Delay Repay based on that against the cost of Sheffield-Basingstoke.

I think these are the correct times to use, but open to correction as always!

I attach booked and actual times of the three trains services we’re talking about on 29 May.

The principle of Delay Repay is actual delay versus a valid itinerary, but not versus an invalid itinerary.

 

[yorkie]

I couldn’t find the original email for my booking, but the travel date was May 29th and the arrival time was around 1910 if I remember correctly. Definitely over 1 hour late.

No, 19:10 would be 55 minutes late, as your itinerary had you arriving into Basingstoke at 18:15.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2025 ==

Both the booked train and the train actually used are reservable trains so the ticket would be, technically, invalid on the earlier train.

Except an unenforceable term can't be upheld against a passenger, and furthermore, the passenger had been advised they could take "any train", which validates the ticket (demonstrating this may be tricky, but in practice it is never going to arise in the specific situation described in this thread)

Their ticket was valid on the train they took, as well as the train they were aiming to catch, but ultimately the delay is under 60 minutes, so it's a valid claim based on a 30-59 min delay, but not 60+.

 

[pelli]

The SWR delay repay portal requires you to use their search function to state your intended itinerary, which only presents options that respect minimum connection times. Did you enter your full journey from Sheffield to Basingstoke, and if so, when the system offered the 14:37 departure with a 18:15 arrival, did you instead go to "Manually enter your journey" and put in an itinerary fouling the minimum connection time?


Anyway, it seems the facts of the case are:
- Your ticket was valid for an itinerary arriving at 18:15
- You actually arrived at 19:12
Hence, as suggested by Bletchleyite and jfollows, you should select the 14:37-18:15 itinerary and claim for a 30-59 minute delay. Given that the intended itinerary is offered by the automatic system, I don't think there's any need to worry about how the claim is presented (indeed there is no way to present the claim any differently - you just click the appropriate buttons).

Further, just to clarify the implication here:

This was the 17:35, due 18:15 in Basingstoke, ironically cancelled. Actual arrival time was 19:12 by getting an earlier service which was then delayed.

Since your booked train at 17:35 was cancelled, travelling on the earlier train at 17:23 is likely to be unquestionably valid (without needing to delve into the issues of reservability vs non-reservability and contractual rights when a company fails to present their intended restrictions clearly to the consumer).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The one case where I could think you might hit issues with this (aside from an Advance with the train printed on the ticket*) is where the earlier train was the only one that was delayed, i.e. if you had taken the one the itinerary suggested you wouldn't have been late at all. But as the later one was cancelled this is not the case here, and it's fairly rare for that to be the case, only where that specific train had broken down but somehow not disrupted others as it did.

* It may still technically be the case that the itinerary is for a specific train, but if it's not on the ticket I think the railway would be on a hiding to nothing if they took that to Court alleging a Byelaw breach or similar. There's no requirement to retain the itinerary once booked, nor to even give it to the person you have booked for - the ticket is what defines the validity and it can't really be otherwise.