Combination of Megatrain and AP tickets.

[Drsatan]

I've booked a Megatrain ticket on 20 August from Southampton Central to London Waterloo: afterwards I will travel on the Northern Line to Euston where I will take a VWC service to Birmingham New Street for which I've bought an Advanced Purchase ticket. If the train to Waterloo is late and I end up missing my connection at Euston, do I have to pay for an OP single to Birmingham or can I board the next train to Birmingham NS without having to pay extra?

Thanks in advance

 

[Mike395]

Bit of a can of worms here - my personal interpretation of MegaTrain tickets is that they act like Advance tickets (they still make the passenger agree to the NCoC) so you would be covered if the initial train was late (ATOC have recently clarified in 'The Manual' that split tickets still allow you to travel on the next available service if the first train is late, causing you to miss a connection, so long as you allow the minimum connection time).

Not completely clear on this however, and you might have a problem if you come across barrier staff or a guard who doesn't agree with my reasoning

 

[Clip]

In my view this isnt a 'split ticket' as such, it is 2 very different services and thus IMO you would have to buy a new ticket.

 

[class377man]

I think the tube transfer muddies the waters even further too.

 

[DJ737]

G'day

I agree with Mike395

If the train into Waterloo is late, it shouldn't matter what type of ticket you have, as long as you allowed for the minimum connection time.

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I've booked a Megatrain ticket on 20 August from Southampton Central to London Waterloo: afterwards I will travel on the Northern Line to Euston where I will take a VWC service to Birmingham New Street for which I've bought an Advanced Purchase ticket. If the train to Waterloo is late and I end up missing my connection at Euston, do I have to pay for an OP single to Birmingham or can I board the next train to Birmingham NS without having to pay extra?

Thanks in advance

Even with the recent addition of the Advance Fares FAQs, this is a potential grey area.

The FAQs say that multiple tickets (even advances) can be used, under condition 19, for one journey and that delays whilst travelling allow you to travel on later services, irrespective of the combination of rail tickets held.

However, the megatrain/advance fares do not cover the entire journey on their own and the FAQs (Q22) say that 'tube-only' fares are not included in that allowance.

So if you have Southampton-Waterloo + Zone U1-Birmingham New Street tickets you are fine, but if you have Southampton-Waterloo + Zone U1 + Euston-Birmingham New Street tickets then I'd say you are on rocky ground.

 

[barrykas]

IMO, the key here is how long the OP has allowed to get from Waterloo to Euston. If it's any less than the 53 minutes laid down in the eNRT, it's not a valid connection regardless of any delay.

Looking at the Megabus site, tickets are available on the 12:55, 13:55, 15:55, 17:55, 19:55 and 20:55 from Soton on the 20th of August, with arrival times into Waterloo of 14:34, 15:34, 17:34, 19:34, 21:38 and 22:38, respectively.

Projecting forward, that gives earliest departures from Euston of 15:27, 16:27, 18:27, 20:27. 22:31 and 23:31.

This translates to timetabled departures at 15:43, 16:43, 18:43 and 21:03, with no connection for the 19:55 and 20:55 departures from Soton.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[bnm]

Even with the recent addition of the Advance Fares FAQs, this is a potential grey area.

The FAQs say that multiple tickets (even advances) can be used, under condition 19, for one journey and that delays whilst travelling allow you to travel on later services, irrespective of the combination of rail tickets held.

However, the megatrain/advance fares do not cover the entire journey on their own and the FAQs (Q22) say that 'tube-only' fares are not included in that allowance.

So if you have Southampton-Waterloo + Zone U1-Birmingham New Street tickets you are fine, but if you have Southampton-Waterloo + Zone U1 + Euston-Birmingham New Street tickets then I'd say you are on rocky ground.

Think you may have misread Q22 there HHF.

It gives a specific example where a combination of Advances plus a tube ticket is valid for travel on a later train should the passenger experience a delay once their journey has begun.

Q22 - Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A: The following principles apply.

1). Start of the Journey. It is the passenger’s responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train. If they miss it due to problems parking, taxi not turning up etc, they must buy a new ticket;

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held. Examples are:

Included: are passengers travelling on valid:
<snip>

e.g. Advance ticket Bristol-Paddington plus tube single ticket plus Advance ticket Kings Cross to Hull.

Only where a journey starts with a non-TOC ticket and the passenger is delayed on that non-TOC journey would the passenger not be allowed (discretion excepted) to travel on a later train.

Not included: for the avoidance of doubt, are:

Non train-company travel on separate tickets e.g. journeys that commence on bus-only, tube-only, ferry-only or metro-only tickets. (This includes “PlusBus” which is a local day- Rover bus ticket, not compatible with a medium/ long distance ‘Advance’ single journey, so are kept as separate tickets);

In all circumstances the passenger should ensure that they get their AP ticket endorsed prior to boarding a later train following a delay. And I'd say that in all circumstances the passenger should ensure their separate AP bookings allow the proscribed minimum time for the cross-London transfer.

Also from Q22 of the Advance Purchase FAQs from 'The Manual':

Please note there is no change to:

a) Any other rules, e.g. trains stopping where tickets join together (NRCoC 19); nor
b) The need to verify that a passenger has been genuinely delayed en route, and ticket endorsed; nor
c) Any other passenger entitlements as defined by the NRCoC or CIV conditions; nor
d) General ATOC disruption guidance; nor
e) Your discretion in extreme circumstances!

One assumes all this should also apply to time restricted tickets. A delay to one part of a journey may mean you can no longer use a subsequent Off Peak/Super Off Peak ticket for several hours if a delay takes you into a period when your subsequent Off Peak/Super Off Peak ticket is not valid.

 

[John @ home]

One assumes all this should also apply to time restricted tickets.

Why? These are FAQs for Advance tickets, not time restricted semi-flexible tickets.

A delay to one part of a journey may mean you can no longer use a subsequent Off Peak/Super Off Peak ticket for several hours if a delay takes you into a period when your subsequent Off Peak/Super Off Peak ticket is not valid.

If this is true, it adds a new Restriction which is the opposite of railway industry practice prior to the issuing of these FAQs. On what are you basing this sentence?

 

[yorkie]

In all circumstances the passenger should ensure that they get their AP ticket endorsed prior to boarding a later train following a delay.

No such requirement exists.

A delay to one part of a journey may mean you can no longer use a subsequent Off Peak/Super Off Peak ticket for several hours if a delay takes you into a period when your subsequent Off Peak/Super Off Peak ticket is not valid.

I don't agree with this. It would result in a huge delay (and, in most cases a full refund) for the passenger.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my view this isnt a 'split ticket' as such, it is 2 very different services and thus IMO you would have to buy a new ticket.

So what does it count as? A non-rail ticket? I think that would be difficult to argue!

I think the tube transfer muddies the waters even further too.

Why does it?

Providing the minimum connection time is allowed, I don't think the tube transfer makes any difference whatsoever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IMO, the key here is how long the OP has allowed to get from Waterloo to Euston. If it's any less than the 53 minutes laid down in the eNRT, it's not a valid connection regardless of any delay.

Agreed. We can't give a definite yes/no answer as we don't know which trains the OP has booked on.

 

[Drsatan]

Looking at the Megabus site, tickets are available on the 12:55, 13:55, 15:55, 17:55, 19:55 and 20:55 from Soton on the 20th of August, with arrival times into Waterloo of 14:34, 15:34, 17:34, 19:34, 21:38 and 22:38, respectively.

Projecting forward, that gives earliest departures from Euston of 15:27, 16:27, 18:27, 20:27. 22:31 and 23:31.

This translates to timetabled departures at 15:43, 16:43, 18:43 and 21:03, with no connection for the 19:55 and 20:55 departures from Soton.

Cheers,

Barry

Just to confirm, I'm catching the 1255 from Southampton Central to London Waterloo, which will arrive at 1434 . The departure from Euston I'm booked to travel on is the 15:43. That means I will have one hour and nine minutes to cross London, which is over the minimum connection time stated by the National Rail journey planner.

Think you may have misread Q22 there HHF.

It gives a specific example where a combination of Advances plus a tube ticket is valid for travel on a later train should the passenger experience a delay once their journey has begun.



Only where a journey starts with a non-TOC ticket and the passenger is delayed on that non-TOC journey would the passenger not be allowed (discretion excepted) to travel on a later train.



In all circumstances the passenger should ensure that they get their AP ticket endorsed prior to boarding a later train following a delay. And I'd say that in all circumstances the passenger should ensure their separate AP bookings allow the proscribed minimum time for the cross-London transfer.

Also from Q22 of the Advance Purchase FAQs from 'The Manual':



One assumes all this should also apply to time restricted tickets. A delay to one part of a journey may mean you can no longer use a subsequent Off Peak/Super Off Peak ticket for several hours if a delay takes you into a period when your subsequent Off Peak/Super Off Peak ticket is not valid.

From what this post means, if the 12:55 arrives late into London Waterloo, which means that I miss the 15:43 to Birmingham NS, I should (in theory) be allowed to travel on the next departure at no additional cost. Although article 19 of the NRCoC might be interpreted as meaning something completely different, the passenger shouldn't be expected to have an intimate knowledge of the NRCoC to avoid being ripped off. Instead, the AP FAQs are what passengers are more likely to read, and they clearly state that in the majority of circumstances if someone has bought an AP ticket to London, then a tube single and an AP ticket from London, if that passenger misses the connecting train he/she should be allowed to travel on the next one.

 

[bnm]

Originally Posted by bnm
In all circumstances the passenger should ensure that they get their AP ticket endorsed prior to boarding a later train following a delay.

No such requirement exists

Agreed, badly written on my part, and does on second reading look like official advice. I should've said, "For the avoidance of potential problems, when boarding a later train to the one originally booked I would advise the passenger to ensure, wherever possible, that they get their AP ticket endorsed."

I agree there's nothing written that says this is required, but it would be beneficial for both the passenger and any subsequent on-train staff encountered. The passenger has confidence that their ticket is valid, and the on-train staff have no need to take up time checking the passenger is valid for travel.

 

[rail-britain]

Perhaps we should simplify the query
megatrain tickets are only valid on the train service to which the reservation is made
There is no compensation for late running or delays
It has already been well documented that passengers have allowed the minimum connection time, but a delay has resulted in subsequently missing the next service and having to pay full fare on the next connection, so beware

Let's say the passenger travels on the Northern Line, but this arrives too late for the AP ticket
The issue then lies on the connection with Northern Line
If the incoming megatrain service is late, then sadly tough

 

[bnm]

As an example: your travelling from Manchester to say bristol and changing at birmingham. But the train getting into brum is late so you miss your connection - thats fine under the rules as you are not leaving the station either so the rules apply. This is different to what the OP is saying and which is what im trying to get accross as to how I dont think that the rules apply here with cross london splits.

But the answer to Q22 in the Advance Fares FAQs guidance to retail staff in 'The Manual' clearly states that a combination of tickets including a ticket for a tube journey is allowed as a valid combination when the spectre of a delay on one leg of a journey affects the validity of an AP ticket on another leg.

Q22 - Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A: The following principles apply.

1). Start of the Journey. It is the passenger’s responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train. If they miss it due to problems parking, taxi not turning up etc, they must buy a new ticket;

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held. Examples are:

Included: are passengers travelling on valid:

Through domestic or international tickets; e.g. BrightonScarborough route “TOC X & Connections”;

Through rail & partner tickets for which there is a through bus, tube, ferry or metro fare, e.g. Zone U12-Leeds, Wisbech Coach-York; Ryde Pier-Hull, etc;

Combination of domestic rail-only tickets

e.g. rail season ticket Skipton-Leeds plus Advance ticket Leeds-Peterborough; or adjoining Advance tickets;

Combination of domestic rail & partner tickets

e.g. BrightonZone U12 plus Advance ticket London-Manchester, or

e.g. Advance ticket Bristol-Paddington plus tube single ticket plus Advance ticket Kings Cross to Hull.

All-Zones Travelcard, PTE-products etc (where rail is included) plus Advance ticket;

Combination of Eurostar tickets into the UK and then either advance purchase tickets from London Terminals or “London Intnl CIV” or “Lndon Eurostar CIV”.

So in that example I've highlighted in bold if you are delayed between Bristol and Paddington and/or Paddington to Kings Cross on the tube your subsequent AP ticket from Kings Cross to Hull will still be valid on a later service. Provided your original bookings allowed for the minimum cross London transfer time.

 

[Clip]

Fair enough - i stand corrected..

 

[AlterEgo]

There is no compensation for late running or delays

It has already been well documented that passengers have allowed the minimum connection time, but a delay has resulted in subsequently missing the next service and having to pay full fare on the next connection, so beware

Let's say the passenger travels on the Northern Line, but this arrives too late for the AP ticket
The issue then lies on the connection with Northern Line
If the incoming megatrain service is late, then sadly tough

No!

Megatrain, in their terms and conditions as a ticket retailer, will obviously state they are unable to offer compensation for delays. The Trainline will not offer compensation for delays either, as they are also only a retailer!

The TOC causing delay will offer compensation as per their Passenger Charter or Delay Repay scheme (if you like getting vouchers for, say, 25p! )

A Megabus/Megatrain ticket is still a rail ticket and the passenger, and the carrying TOC, are still subject to the NRCoC.

You are not therefore to be penalised, either for delay compensation, or for the provision of onward travel, for having a Megatrain ticket.

 

[rail-britain]

megatrain do not offer any form of compensation
Equally where the TOC receive a claim for such a ticket, they refer the customer back to megatrain
So far I am not aware of anyone who has successfully been awarded or received compensation or a refund for a replacement ticket that was required

 

[AlterEgo]

megatrain do not offer any form of compensation
Equally where the TOC receive a claim for such a ticket, they refer the customer back to megatrain
So far I am not aware of anyone who has successfully been awarded or received compensation or a refund for a replacement ticket that was required

Sorry, but this is eminently wrong (not saying you are wrong, but the practice is). I know of one TOC who will compensate, as it's in the NRCoC that the customer must receive a minimum level of compensation, regardless.

 

[rail-britain]

I know of one TOC who will compensate, as it's in the NRCoC that the customer must receive a minimum level of compensation, regardless.

I have had loads of compensation claims, typically from 30 minutes late upwards and even including heating failure

However as above, tickets purchased through megatrain will not receive any compensation no matter which TOC is used
Equally if the TOC do receive such a claim they will refer the customer back to megatrain
The is the price you pay for such a discounted ticket
As previous if you have purchased a megatrain ticket, then I would be most interested how you claimed compensation and the responses you received
I know one of my previous customers was disgusted at the three responses they received (megatrain and West Coast Trains)
The third response from ATOC simply advised to contact West Coast Trains but as they had already responded could not change their decision not to award compensation for the type of ticket purchased

megatrain do not have a passengers charter, so the NCoRC do not apply, and ATOC will confirm this

 

[swt_passenger]

For the avoidance of doubt - this is how the megabus site T&C reads...

19.If the train you are booked on is cancelled, you may travel only on the next train provided by the carrier, or you may have a full refund of the fare (and the booking fee). If you decide not to travel for any other reason, you may apply for a refund, (subject to an administration charge of £10.00 per booking) by writing to:

megatrain.com
1 Smeaton Road
Gourdie Industrial Estate
Dundee
DD2 4UT

Compensation for delays is not offered.

20.Rail travel is undertaken under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage as amended by these terms. A copy can be obtained from staffed train stations or from www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/.

(my bolding added)

 

[bnm]

We seem to be getting a bit lost in what megatrain will or will not offer as compensation.

The OPs original enquiry was to ask, if his megatrain journey was delayed and caused him to miss onward travel for which he held another AP ticket, whether he will be able to catch a later train.

I see no reason, according to Advance Purchase FAQs from 'The Manual', why he wouldn't be allowed travel on a later train.

Talk of 'compensation' is just muddying the waters and is not really relevant to the OPs original query.

And lets not forget one of the opening lines from 'The Manual' guidance to retail staff about Advance Purchase validity:

If the answer to your question is not shown below, then the bottom line is:
If it doesn’t say on the Conditions Card (or in the NRCoC) that ticket holders cannot do something, then they can do it!

 

[AlterEgo]

We seem to be getting a bit lost in what megatrain will or will not offer as compensation.

The OPs original enquiry was to ask, if his megatrain journey was delayed and caused him to miss onward travel for which he held another AP ticket, whether he will be able to catch a later train.

I see no reason, according to Advance Purchase FAQs from 'The Manual', why he wouldn't be allowed travel on a later train.

Indeed.

I think my earlier post was poorly worded; if you travel solely on a Megatrain ticket, then no, no compensation for delay will be awarded, as per their TnCs. If you use it as part of a split ticket (with an Advance or any other non-Megatrain ticket), then I fail to see how your rights are affected. This is because you are essentially travelling under two different versions of the NRCoC on each leg of the journey. Not very customer friendly, and in my opinion the more generous interpretation should prevail to the passenger.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Think you may have misread Q22 there HHF....

I think I just forgot it was there