Parades which cause problems for public transport should be banned

[childwallblues]

Moderator note: Split from

Crowd Management at Liverpool Lime Street after Parade

Hi everyone, Just wondering if anyone knows what’s happening at Liverpool Lime Street station this evening. There are thousands of people queueing outside in the rain, and no one is being allowed inside the station. It’s quite chaotic, especially following such a large public event that...

www.railforums.co.uk

I have complained to Network Rail directly, although I do understand the points you make regarding who my contract was with (Northern). For me the compensation/delay repay is less relevant. We had a seat all the way from Manchester to Central Liverpool (via Headbolt Lane). We did not go for any specific return train and knew we would have to queue for some time. By then walking to Edge Hill we got home earlier than staying at Lime Street and we got a seat also! We arrived back in Manchester at 9pm when most others were still outside Lime Street. I consider myself to be a lucky one.

For me accountability and lessons learnt are the most important. I will be pushing Network Rail for better answers because I suspect the ones I receive will not be good enough. I want to see the Network Rail Managers from Lime Street being grilled in Westminster by a Transport Select Commitee so that they realise just how serious and abysmal their failure was. I am drafting a letter to my MP as has been recommened upthread, we should all do it.

Then if necessary I will make a Freedom of Information request to see what their future plans are for when Liverpool win the league next season as well !

This is worth more to me than £9.45 I could probably claim for.

The answer is not to allow any more parades which would allow public transport staff not to be abused. I have worked in Lime Street Station on one of these occasions and I can tell you that the abuse is not worth the hassle.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The answer is not to allow any more parades which would allow public transport staff not to be abused. I have worked in Lime Street Station on one of these occasions and I can tell you that the abuse is not worth the hassle.

No, I’m sorry, unfortunately in a customer facing role you are going to encounter scumbags in any given situation, and while they should be severely recompensed by the law, it is not practical to just ban everything in society where people are likely to get drunk and rowdy. Banning parades, I mean seriously, come on?

Else where do we stop? Banning festivals, banning football matches, banning pubs and clubs, cancelling all late night train services out of London, Manc, Leeds, Liverpool, Glasgow, etc.

 

[sjm77]

The answer is not to allow any more parades which would allow public transport staff not to be abused. I have worked in Lime Street Station on one of these occasions and I can tell you that the abuse is not worth the hassle.

Erm not sure why this was a reply to my previous post?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

The answer is not to allow any more parades which would allow public transport staff not to be abused. I have worked in Lime Street Station on one of these occasions and I can tell you that the abuse is not worth the hassle.

We dont live in North Korea or China, we can march where and when we want and will do, if its not worth the hassle maybe you are in the wrong job.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

We dont live in North Korea or China, we can march where and when we want and will do, if its not worth the hassle maybe you are in the wrong job.

Well said.

 

[Lewisham2221]

We dont live in North Korea or China, we can march where and when we want and will do

No, we live in the UK where the police/authorities can ban or restrict parades etc (including limits on numbers attending) on safety and security grounds.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No, we live in the UK where the police/authorities can ban or restrict parades etc (including limits on numbers attending) on safety and security grounds.

If they didn't see fit to restrict the parade for the safety of those actually there, then it's ridiculous to suggest they should do solely for staff at the nearby railway station.

 

[Lewisham2221]

If they didn't see fit to restrict the parade for the safety of those actually there, then it's ridiculous to suggest they should do solely for staff at the nearby railway station.

Perhaps I should've been clearer. I wasn't suggesting the parade should've been banned purely for the safety of station staff. I've edited my post for clarity.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Perhaps I should've been clearer. I wasn't suggesting the parade should've been banned purely for the safety of station staff. I've edited my post for clarity.

I know, sorry, but you replied to comments which were denouncing the following:

The answer is not to allow any more parades which would allow public transport staff not to be abused.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

No, we live in the UK where the police/authorities can ban or restrict parades etc (including limits on numbers attending) on safety and security grounds.

I would like to see them try. Was absolute chaos at the parade with people pushing down narrow streets in all directions and the police response to one parent was "what can we do" as they stood against a wall out of the way, so no they cant stop it, maybe in law,but in law they can catch criminals, but that rarely happens. In the real world if a parade is happening it will happen.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I would like to see them try. Was absolute chaos at the parade with people pushing down narrow streets in all directions and the police response to one parent was "what can we do" as they stood against a wall out of the way, so no they cant stop it, maybe in law,but in law they can catch criminals, but that rarely happens. In the real world if a parade is happening it will happen.

I thought it was obvious that I wasn't suggesting they wait until there's a million people already lining the streets and then go "actually, no, not today, home you go" but apparently not. More like a "sorry fellas, that weekends a no-go for your parade, you'll have to choose another date, maybe the weekend after?"

By the looks of your post, the police were also massively under resourced for the event, so it absolutely should've been postponed well in advance.

 

[Starmill]

I thought it was obvious that I wasn't suggesting they wait until there's a million people already lining the streets and then go "actually, no, not today, home you go" but apparently not. More like a "sorry fellas, that weekends a no-go for your parade, you'll have to choose another date, maybe the weekend after?"

By the looks of your post, the police were also massively under resourced for the event, so it absolutely should've been postponed well in advance.

One of my friends was working at the football game in London between Walsall and Wimbledon and said it had lost significant police resources compared to usual because of trying to get enough cover in Liverpool at the same time. It certainly sounds to me like Liverpool City Council had every reason to try and stop the club's request for the parade and failed. The same friend suggested that the club can often be very persuasive. However I am not skilled in telling the difference between actual analysis of the football industry and just bare partisan rivalry. Lots of people are quick to criticise for no other reason than sour grapes they didn't win.

 

[HSTEd]

This position is functionally arguing for no more parades, ever

 

[DanNCL]

Maybe, just maybe, the solution is to make public transport able to better handle such events.

Banning parades because the railway can’t cope with them is beyond ridiculous.

 

[SynthD]

I thought it was obvious that I wasn't suggesting they wait until there's a million people already lining the streets and then go "actually, no, not today, home you go" but apparently not. More like a "sorry fellas, that weekends a no-go for your parade, you'll have to choose another date, maybe the weekend after?"

What would be better the next weekend? A million people will come, and the same tiny minority could abuse staff.

 

[The exile]

There is definitely a case for saying that events (not just parades) intended to attract more than a certain number (which would probably have to be determined locally) would only get permission to go ahead once the organisers have proved that they have arranged adequate provision for transport, policing, other emergency cover, waste disposal etc - taking into consideration everything else already fixed for the date. I don’t mean “have you considered how 50,000 people will get home? Yes. OK” - but that detailed plans should show exactly what provision has been / will be arranged over and above the normal (including car parking).

 

[Zomboid]

There were complicating factors at the Liverpool parade that probably meant people dispersed in a more compressed timeframe than would usually happen.

I don't remember hearing about any mayhem resulting from the Crystal Palace or Newcastle parades - no doubt there will have been some idiots at both, but seemingly they passed off reasonably incident free.

Personally these kinds of event are something I'd avoid, but people should be allowed to celebrate sporting achievement or whatever else if it's possible to mitigate the risks appropriately.

 

[childwallblues]

As a Liverpool resident in recent times we have had Eurovision 2023, Queen Anne naming 2024 and Annual Grand National Meetings which the authorities and transport systems have been able to cope with.

We obviously could not cope with the sheer volume of people arriving in the city at once for the parade. I doubt that the parade brought any benefit to the city in terms of money, as many shops/bars/cafes had sensibly closed down for the duration of the parade. And I dread to think of the aftermath that the City Council would have had to clear up.

It is obvious that the same thing is going to occur the next time Liverpool FC win a trophy. Next time I suggest that any parade should be banned from the city centre and instead make use of the marvellous system of dual carriageways. Any parade could start near Liverpool Airport or even Halewood, going via Speke Road, Horrocks Avenue, Mather Avenue, Queens Drive and Utting Avenue to terminate at the football ground.

They could even open the ground and let in 61000 good souls.

It is obvious, especially after the Water Street incident that the City Centre can no longer cope with any further football parades.

 

[The exile]

There were complicating factors at the Liverpool parade that probably meant people dispersed in a more compressed timeframe than would usually happen.

I don't remember hearing about any mayhem resulting from the Crystal Palace or Newcastle parades - no doubt there will have been some idiots at both, but seemingly they passed off reasonably incident free.

Personally these kinds of event are something I'd avoid, but people should be allowed to celebrate sporting achievement or whatever else if it's possible to mitigate the risks appropriately.

Certainly the case that the events on Water Street will have changed the dynamic. However, with no disrespect to either Palace or Newcastle, Liverpool is one of a small group of clubs with a huge non-local following, has been through a lean time and was deprived of their last chance to celebrate by COVID - an almost unique (but entirely foreseeable) set of curcumstances.

 

[Zomboid]

Certainly the case that the events on Water Street will have changed the dynamic. However, with no disrespect to either Palace or Newcastle, Liverpool is one of a small group of clubs with a huge non-local following, has been through a lean time and was deprived of their last chance to celebrate by COVID - an almost unique (but entirely foreseeable) set of curcumstances.

Though Liverpool have won other stuff in more recent times, such as the Champions League. I've no memory of any parades for that, but I can't imagine there wasn't one. Crystal Palace had never previously won anything of note, and Newcastle had endured a famously long lean period, though you're probably right that their fanbases aren't as spread around as Liverpool's.

However the situation with the Liverpool parade was unique in many ways - some foreseeable and others not, and it shouldn't be used as justification for stopping anyone from having a celebration as and when they have something to celebrate.

 

[The exile]

Though Liverpool have won other stuff in more recent times, such as the Champions League. I've no memory of any parades for that, but I can't imagine there wasn't one. Crystal Palace had never previously won anything of note, and Newcastle had endured a famously long lean period, though you're probably right that their fanbases aren't as spread around as Liverpool's.

However the situation with the Liverpool parade was unique in many ways - some foreseeable and others not, and it shouldn't be used as justification for stopping anyone from having a celebration as and when they have something to celebrate.

What happened on Monday at Line Street is only an extreme example, however - you just need to read various threads here to see less dramatic, but equally predictable, situations. Let’s start with all those matches scheduled at times which suit TV but mean away fans can’t get home by public transport.

 

[Topological]

There are some strange arguments here.

Liverpool FC, as one of the major brand attractors of inward investment into Liverpool won one of the world's premier football competitions. A celebration of that success, and hence enhancement of the global reach, drew a huge number of people to Liverpool. The date was the closest sensible date to the actual achievement (the season only finished on Sunday).

People expect the Liverpool leadership (Mayor etc) to turn around and say no parade because we haven't got a good enough transport infrastructure?

There are questions about provision of capacity in the infrastructure, policing etc., but the idea that the council would cut off a major good news story is bizarre*

* Note that it should have been a major good news story were it not for the events on Water Street. Such events are not forecastable, because if they were the police resource would prevent them happening. Such events are also thankfully rare relative to the number of celebrations of local achievement.

 

[The exile]

People expect the Liverpool leadership (Mayor etc) to turn around and say no parade because we haven't got a good enough transport infrastructure?

Yes - especially if “not good enough” really means “unsafe when faced with the expected numbers”

 

[yoyothehobo]

Yes

Good luck with that. Then you just end up with unpoliced, unofficial gatherings

 

[Topological]

There are some daft expectations, but asking the local government to sour relations with a source of £500m of Gross Value Added in the local economy is right up there.

(Source for £500m is a document produced by Liverpool FC in 2017/18: http://assets.liverpoolfc.com/emails/images/PRMBreifing1.pdf)

The recognition of Liverpool FC by the Liverpool Combined Authority is documented neatly here in a 2024 article on their own webpage: https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca....ion-and-the-role-it-can-play-driving-us-trade

Mayor Steve Rotheram has hailed the game-changing role FSG can play in boosting the Liverpool City Region economy after meeting chairman Tom Werner and top executives at Fenway Park.

Quotes from Steve Rotheram within the article:

“LFC continue to have a hugely positive impact on the city region’s economy. This mission is about strengthening trade and driving investment in the US and we’ve discussed with Fenway Sports Group about how they can help us achieve this in Boston and the wider area.

“We’ve already seen the huge impact of sports tourism and how hosting major events can generate tens of millions of dollars for our local economy. It was fascinating to visit Fenway Park to hear about how things are done here and see if there are areas we can learn from.

“Our two great cities already share deep-rooted historical and cultural links and we now have two of the world’s great sporting institutions in common, in the Red Sox and Liverpool Football Club. I’m grateful for the chance to meet influential stakeholders like FSG who have been instrumental in opening doors for us to showcase the tremendous opportunities of collaboration with businesses in the Liverpool City Region. We are keen to build on those links by boosting tourism, trade and investment, and can promise a warm city region welcome to any Bostonians who care to cross the pond and visit us.”

So it really baffles me that anyone would think Liverpool are about to do anything other than welcome such an event.

Whether some of that GVA needs spending on transport is for the voters of Liverpool to determine.

 

[Indigo Soup]

This kind of thing is why a lot of events are ticketed. If the event organisers and the relevant authorities determine that only 500,000 people can safely be accommodated at an event, then only that number of tickets can be issued.

While it's unpopular (especially with anyone who thinks they'd have got the 500,001st ticket), it's a way of making sure that emergency services, public transport, etc. can be properly resourced for the expected numbers of people.

 

[jh64]

There are some daft expectations, but asking the local government to sour relations with a source of £500m of Gross Value Added in the local economy is right up there.

(Source for £500m is a document produced by Liverpool FC in 2017/18: http://assets.liverpoolfc.com/emails/images/PRMBreifing1.pdf)

The recognition of Liverpool FC by the Liverpool Combined Authority is documented neatly here in a 2024 article on their own webpage: https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca....ion-and-the-role-it-can-play-driving-us-trade


Quotes from Steve Rotheram within the article:


So it really baffles me that anyone would think Liverpool are about to do anything other than welcome such an event.

Whether some of that GVA needs spending on transport is for the voters of Liverpool to determine.

As a point of comparison, 300,000 people attended the Newcastle victory parade and that was estimated to be worth at least £6 million to the local economy. The Liverpool parade had over one million people showing up, so that must have meant an astonishing amount of money flowing into local shop tills just for one day. There was no chance of that being turned down.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes - especially if “not good enough” really means “unsafe when faced with the expected numbers”

Perhaps, but - that wasn't the position articulated. It was "the parade should be banned because people are abusive to rail staff".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

This kind of thing is why a lot of events are ticketed. If the event organisers and the relevant authorities determine that only 500,000 people can safely be accommodated at an event, then only that number of tickets can be issued.

While it's unpopular (especially with anyone who thinks they'd have got the 500,001st ticket), it's a way of making sure that emergency services, public transport, etc. can be properly resourced for the expected numbers of people.

Absolutely unworkable for a trophy parade and really naive to think this is how these things work. You'd just get 1 million people in the city centre instead making their own party.

 

[deltic]

It would make more sense to offer additional entertainment at such events to reduce the size of crowds all leaving the city centre at the same time and to spread out the parade as far as possible to spread out the crowds

 

[Fawkes Cat]

spread out the parade as far as possible to spread out the crowds

You do know that the parade was 10 miles long? See the map at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c201gn03rx5o with the comment

The 15-km (10-mile) parade is scheduled to start at 14:30 BST from Allerton Maze, travelling north on Queens Drive towards the Fiveways roundabout and Rocket flyover.

From there it will continue along Queens Drive, Mill Bank, West Derby Road, Islington, Leeds Street, and The Strand, finishing at Blundell Street.

And this, of course, brings its own problems since the Strand is the main North/South road through the city centre while Queens Drive is the North/South ring road.