Crowd Management at Liverpool Lime Street after Parade

[Lewisham2221]

Exactly this happens at Mount Florida after events at Hampden.

Complete incompetence, they seem to let a set number of people down onto the platform for each train, with no consideration of the length of the next train arriving.

So you have 6-car trains leaving which aren't even half full, while thousands are still queueing on the street.

That sounds more like they are taking into account the safe capacity of the platform, rather than the train - not the worst idea on an island platform.

 

[BG2024]

Interesting quote from Steve Rotherham (Metro Mayor of Liverpool City Region):

"The issue we have when an incident like this happens is that one of the ways we secure the wider area is to close down the public transport system and we had to do that. That meant people in their hundreds and thousands were waiting for many hours to get transport. But it also meant that the people driving those trains and those buses and those running those transport services also had to work long and late and they did that voluntarily. People came in on their day off to do that. I would like to thank all of those staff for stepping forward. They were absolutely superb.”

So he thinks there was a conscious decision to close down the public transport system after the Water Street incident, but as far as I can tell nobody else is saying that (not the police, not Network Rail, not any TOC, not any of the Lime Street staff who've kindly posted on this thread).

Full quote is in this Liverpool Echo link, but it's a Reach PLC publication, so don't visit without an ad-blocker: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/steve-rotheram-says-trains-shut-31738268

 

[kkong]

That sounds more like they are taking into account the safe capacity of the platform, rather than the train - not the worst idea on an island platform.

Yet there's more than enough capacity for the 6-car trains arriving before the match onto the same island platform.

It's just incompetence.

They put staff with a clicker at the top of the stairs and once it reaches X, allow no more passengers down onto the platform, regardless of which train formation is due in next.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yet there's more than enough capacity for the 6-car trains arriving before the match onto the same island platform.

It's just incompetence.

They put staff with a clicker at the top of the stairs and once it reaches X, allow no more passengers down onto the platform, regardless of which train formation is due in next.

It's not normal behaviour for a 6 car trainload of people to get off a train and then just remain on the platform. People will immediately begin leaving. That's totally different to having that number of people waiting on the platform for a train to arrive.

 

[kkong]

It's not normal behaviour for a 6 car trainload of people to get off a train and then just remain on the platform. People will immediately begin leaving. That's totally different to having that number of people waiting on the platform for a train to arrive.

It's a 150m long platform which is about 9m wide at its peak.

You ought to be able to get more than 3 cars' worth of passengers able to wait there without any difficulty.

 

[sjm77]

Anyone complaining to the TOC would be doing the right thing.

A passenger has a contract with the train operating companies (as clearly stated in the NRCoT) not Network Rail. Before making a complaint to a company it is not a requirement to determine if a third party is ultimately responsible and to address the complaint to them directly, nor would it be appropriate to do so given that the customer has no direct contractual relationship with the third party.

The general public could send complaints to Network Rail if they really wanted to, but I don't really think it makes much sense for many people.

Presumably, most people also want some compensation for the delay, which they are very unlikely to be getting paid by Network Rail. So they'd have to send two complaints.

I have complained to Network Rail directly, although I do understand the points you make regarding who my contract was with (Northern). For me the compensation/delay repay is less relevant. We had a seat all the way from Manchester to Central Liverpool (via Headbolt Lane). We did not go for any specific return train and knew we would have to queue for some time. By then walking to Edge Hill we got home earlier than staying at Lime Street and we got a seat also! We arrived back in Manchester at 9pm when most others were still outside Lime Street. I consider myself to be a lucky one.

For me accountability and lessons learnt are the most important. I will be pushing Network Rail for better answers because I suspect the ones I receive will not be good enough. I want to see the Network Rail Managers from Lime Street being grilled in Westminster by a Transport Select Commitee so that they realise just how serious and abysmal their failure was. I am drafting a letter to my MP as has been recommened upthread, we should all do it.

Then if necessary I will make a Freedom of Information request to see what their future plans are for when Liverpool win the league next season as well !

This is worth more to me than £9.45 I could probably claim for.

 

[dk1]

Was interesting listening to a woman speaking on R2s Jeremy Vine lunchtime show yesterday. She said that both her and her friend felt quite unsafe in the city centre and feeling that the event had far greater attendances than expected. Little or no toilet facilities were available and she felt police presence was extremely limited.

Nowhere near on the same scale but I can only liken it to Grand National day especially when tens of thousands descend on Liverpool itself afterwards. The atmosphere is always fantastic with lots of planning from the emergency services who keep a low but friendly profile throughout the evening.

 

[childwallblues]

I know that the dispatch staff are all provided by Northern, who dispatch everything except Avanti who self-dispatch. I’m not sure on who provides other staffing however

Spot on with your comments. The barrier staff are Northen Rail whilst the concourse is managed by Network Rail who also manage the station pa system.

 

[Gostav]

As the crews waited on the platform, did anyone questioned the sparse passenger numbers?

 

[dk1]

As the crews waited on the platform, did anyone questioned the sparse passenger numbers?

Speaking as a driver, if there is severe disruption as this yes we might question it but thats about it. We have no sway whatsoever and just follow orders from Duty Traincrew Managers with some input from Control.

 

[Starmill]

EMR will have other passengers wanting to make other journeys and might reasonably take the view that waiting a further indeterminate length of time for the station staff to get things sorted, or not, was not appropriate.

Exactly right of course - given the uncertainty of the situation was probably apparent to EMR control and the conductor just as much as it was to the several thousand members of the public standing in the streets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

I know that the dispatch staff are all provided by Northern, who dispatch everything except Avanti who self-dispatch. I’m not sure on who provides other staffing however

Others have said perhaps but my understanding was that on any normal day most station staff are either Northern or Avanti West Coast at Liverpool Lime Street? There are Network Rail staff too, and I believe some TransPennine Express, but I don't think many. Obviously this is excluding Merseyrail staff who work downstairs usually, and third party such as retail or cleaning.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

I have complained to Network Rail directly, although I do understand the points you make regarding who my contract was with (Northern). For me the compensation/delay repay is less relevant. We had a seat all the way from Manchester to Central Liverpool (via Headbolt Lane). We did not go for any specific return train and knew we would have to queue for some time. By then walking to Edge Hill we got home earlier than staying at Lime Street and we got a seat also! We arrived back in Manchester at 9pm when most others were still outside Lime Street. I consider myself to be a lucky one.

For me accountability and lessons learnt are the most important. I will be pushing Network Rail for better answers because I suspect the ones I receive will not be good enough. I want to see the Network Rail Managers from Lime Street being grilled in Westminster by a Transport Select Commitee so that they realise just how serious and abysmal their failure was. I am drafting a letter to my MP as has been recommened upthread, we should all do it.

Then if necessary I will make a Freedom of Information request to see what their future plans are for when Liverpool win the league next season as well !

This is worth more to me than £9.45 I could probably claim for.

You're entitled to complain to both if that's your choice, and a third to your MP or a councillor wherever you live too. It's obviously reasonable to at least ask for your £9.45 back in addition, even if you're not that bothered about the financial side.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

As the crews waited on the platform, did anyone questioned the sparse passenger numbers?

Some of the train crew have posted in this thread that they were briefed in advance to wait for passengers, which is consistent with what others have posted. So it's likely the message was eventually relayed to cancel the previous instruction and go when ready, I suppose. It helps when trains have conductors because the controller can usually call them directly.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Well done for getting the thread back on track. Endless waffle about event scheduling is irrelevant when trains were leaving anything other than 100% loaded. Someone must be responsible for the shambles but it looks as if nobody cares. Even on a day that appears to be a cash cow waiting to be milked, the railway screws up big time.

Exactly, and blaming the city for allowing multiple events on the same day is just LAUGHABLE

 

[Lewisham2221]

Exactly and blaming the city for allowing multiple events on the same day is just LAUGHABLE

Not at all. The authorities absolutely should be considering the ability of the area's infrastructure to cope with the demands placed on it by any and all large events.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Not at all. The authorities absolutely should be considering the ability of the area's infrastructure to cope with the demands placed on it by any and all large events.

If trains were leaving over 30% empty (meaning there were upwards of 500 empty spaces per train depending on the type), then it's likely the infrastructure could handle it if not for a failiure of logistics and croud management.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

If trains were leaving over 30% empty (meaning there were upwards of 500 empty spaces per train depending on the type), then it's likely the infrastructure could handle it if not for a failiure of logistics and croud management.

Bingo

 

[Lewisham2221]

If trains were leaving over 30% empty (meaning there were upwards of 500 empty spaces per train depending on the type), then it's likely the infrastructure could handle it if not for a failiure of logistics and croud management.

Firstly, we honestly do not know if filling those trains would have made any noticeable difference. We need to know how many trains left significantly under capacity, how many (roughly) more people could have been accommodated on those services, an approximation of how many people were queuing outside the station and an approximation of how many people were ultimately unable to board a train that evening. Without that information, we don't even know if there was enough onboard capacity.

Secondly, it's not just about if the actual trains can cope. There's no point having enough space on board trains to accommodate a couple of hundred thousand people if the station that people need to use to board those trains can't itself safely and effectively handle the same number of people.

 

[Energy]

Little or no toilet facilities were available

I currently live not far from the University. It was noticeable not only the traffic but also the number of people urinating in a small secluded bin area across the road from me. There were a load of portaloos outside of Lime St, though.

Exactly and blaming the city for allowing multiple events on the same day is just LAUGHABLE

Not really... you'll, of course, have multiple small events going on, but the Radio 1 Big Weekend was not small, most of Sefton Park was taken up by it.

If trains were leaving over 30% empty (meaning there were upwards of 500 empty spaces per train depending on the type), then it's likely the infrastructure could handle it if not for a failiure of logistics and croud management.

Agreed.

No idea why they didn't have destination-specific queues. Limiting people in the concourse doesn't work when the limited quantity spends significant time finding their train.

The concourse isn't particularly small, they could have setup destination specific queues inside.

 

[Typewind]

I have complained to Network Rail directly, although I do understand the points you make regarding who my contract was with (Northern). For me the compensation/delay repay is less relevant. We had a seat all the way from Manchester to Central Liverpool (via Headbolt Lane). We did not go for any specific return train and knew we would have to queue for some time. By then walking to Edge Hill we got home earlier than staying at Lime Street and we got a seat also! We arrived back in Manchester at 9pm when most others were still outside Lime Street. I consider myself to be a lucky one.

For me accountability and lessons learnt are the most important. I will be pushing Network Rail for better answers because I suspect the ones I receive will not be good enough. I want to see the Network Rail Managers from Lime Street being grilled in Westminster by a Transport Select Commitee so that they realise just how serious and abysmal their failure was. I am drafting a letter to my MP as has been recommened upthread, we should all do it.

Then if necessary I will make a Freedom of Information request to see what their future plans are for when Liverpool win the league next season as well !

This is worth more to me than £9.45 I could probably claim for.

I'm considering writing a proper article based on this discussion and sharing it on social media. Really appreciate all the insights and information everyone has contributed. If anyone has any concerns about me referencing or quoting your comments, please feel free to let me know.

 

[Starmill]

Firstly, we honestly do not know if filling those trains would have made any noticeable difference. We need to know how many trains left significantly under capacity, how many (roughly) more people could have been accommodated on those services, an approximation of how many people were queuing outside the station and an approximation of how many people were ultimately unable to board a train that evening. Without that information, we don't even know if there was enough onboard capacity.

Secondly, it's not just about if the actual trains can cope. There's no point having enough space on board trains to accommodate a couple of hundred thousand people if the station that people need to use to board those trains can't itself safely and effectively handle the same number of people.

We can make educated guesses without the numbers to hand.

For example we can definitely make the educated guess that about the same number of people wanted to go into Liverpool before about midday as leave Liverpool after about 5pm. We know plenty of people stayed the night by one means or another, but we also know there were people who were leaving the city who'd stayed the weekend for non-football related events. In addition we can make the educated guess that by a combination of arriving a little on the late side or switching over to road transport for part or all of the journey, most everyone who set off in good time to get to Liverpool before the parade got there by one means or another.

The train capacity that departed after the parade had finished is obviously lower than before it started. However, we can exclude most of the arrivals in Liverpool before about 0800 as there were no reports of these being busy, although departures around this time towards Liverpool were full. On this measure it's still difficult to guess what the true capacity was because we can't easily account for things like some services being cancelled. But we can see that there was somewhere between two thirds and four fifths of the number of trains after the parade that there was before.

Finally we know that large numbers of passengers ended up stranded in Preston, Crewe, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Manchester Victoria and a few other places and some efforts were made, at enormous expense probably, to source road transport or accommodation. We can guess from Twitter that hundreds more will have paid for a hotel or taxi themselves from these places and will now be attempting to claim these costs back from the train company. Finally we can guess there are vast costs in complaints handling and claims for delay coming in as a result of this, and all that is, at the end of the day, public money that the industry now has little choice but to spend wastefully.

 

[6Gman]

Was interesting listening to a woman speaking on R2s Jeremy Vine lunchtime show yesterday. She said that both her and her friend felt quite unsafe in the city centre and feeling that the event had far greater attendances than expected. Little or no toilet facilities were available and she felt police presence was extremely limited.

Nowhere near on the same scale but I can only liken it to Grand National day especially when tens of thousands descend on Liverpool itself afterwards. The atmosphere is always fantastic with lots of planning from the emergency services who keep a low but friendly profile throughout the evening.

I think the key difference is that the Grand National is an annual ticketed event so numbers can be predicted along with broad travel patterns.

 

[dk1]

I think the key difference is that the Grand National is an annual ticketed event so numbers can be predicted along with broad travel patterns.

Agreed. I was just comparing. It seems this occasion caught many out.

 

[sonic2009]

I think the key difference is that the Grand National is an annual ticketed event so numbers can be predicted along with broad travel patterns.

Whilst I agree with this also. A football parade could have been predicted to an extent, given a fanbase the size of Liverpool FC.

 

[Statto]

Whilst I agree with this also. A football parade could have been predicted to an extent, given a fanbase the size of Liverpool FC.

The parade was announced 4 weeks ago shortly after Liverpool wrapped up the title against Spurs.

A large turnout was expected, what happened at Lime Street was a complete organisational failure by Network Rail.

Merseyrail managed things a lot better, and had directors at the stations, who could make quick decisions.

I went to the parade, I went to Queens Drive by the Old Swan, part of the route, as i knew the City Centre section would be rammed. I got back to Central Station just before 5.30pm, and the queues went smoothly. I was on the train within 25 minutes.

 

[73001]

Interesting quote from Steve Rotherham (Metro Mayor of Liverpool City Region):



So he thinks there was a conscious decision to close down the public transport system after the Water Street incident, but as far as I can tell nobody else is saying that (not the police, not Network Rail, not any TOC, not any of the Lime Street staff who've kindly posted on this thread).

Full quote is in this Liverpool Echo link, but it's a Reach PLC publication, so don't visit without an ad-blocker: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/steve-rotheram-says-trains-shut-31738268

I'm a supervisor for Arriva (buses); nobody told us to stop and we didn't, all night. Possibly he's making excuses for a poorly designed plan.

 

[Starmill]

I'm a supervisor for Arriva (buses); nobody told us to stop and we didn't, all night. Possibly he's making excuses for a poorly designed plan.

It is a very confused picture I will admit. Is there any evidence of Merseyrail shutting down even for a brief period? I'm not sure that anyone else, beyond perhaps Rotheram depending on how you take it, has suggested that happened. Doesn't quite seem like Rotheram has been briefed on what's happened does it...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

How do these measures work with Advance tickets, if you are denied access to the station until after the only train on which your ticket is valid has left.

Not sure if anyone replied directly to your question or not here but on this occasion it was tweeted out earlier in the day that all restrictions were being lifted and passengers departing from Liverpool Lime Street could use any train. So not just advance tickets etc it was all operators including Merseyrail.

This was available at this link but seems to be removed again after it stops being relevant: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/lfc-parade-20250519/

Avanti West Coast also had on their journey check a long list of services all with first and standard premium classes declassified. Pretty much every train from Liverpool was standard class in all coaches. Avanti generally don't declasify First in Pendolino coach K on a whim, however it was on this occasion.

 

[TUC]

Interesting quote from Steve Rotherham (Metro Mayor of Liverpool City Region):



So he thinks there was a conscious decision to close down the public transport system after the Water Street incident, but as far as I can tell nobody else is saying that (not the police, not Network Rail, not any TOC, not any of the Lime Street staff who've kindly posted on this thread).

Full quote is in this Liverpool Echo link, but it's a Reach PLC publication, so don't visit without an ad-blocker: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/steve-rotheram-says-trains-shut-31738268

That does not readily hold water as an explanation. After an incident like this, you want the ability for people to disperse and get out of the area as quickly possible.

 

[jamesst]

It is a very confused picture I will admit. Is there any evidence of Merseyrail shutting down even for a brief period? I'm not sure that anyone else, beyond perhaps Rotheram depending on how you take it, has suggested that happened. Doesn't quite seem like Rotheram has been briefed on what's happened does it...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==


Not sure if anyone replied directly to your question or not here but on this occasion it was tweeted out earlier in the day that all restrictions were being lifted and passengers departing from Liverpool Lime Street could use any train. So not just advance tickets etc it was all operators including Merseyrail.

This was available at this link but seems to be removed again after it stops being relevant: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/lfc-parade-20250519/

Avanti West Coast also had on their journey check a long list of services all with first and standard premium classes declassified. Pretty much every train from Liverpool was standard class in all coaches. Avanti generally don't declasify First in Pendolino coach K on a whim, however it was on this occasion.

It's purely Rotheram talking rubbish like he always does.
There was a brief interruption due to a fire alarm at Moorfields but Merseyrail did not shut down at any point.

 

[LittleAH]

But the point here is that the trains weren’t used. There’s no point in releasing trains to strengthen services and the letting them leave empty-it’s sheer incompetence

That’s not the fault of the operators. The more i hear, the more it looks like both Liverpool FC and the council grossly underestimated numbers for the parade and the station and previous processes/staffing levels couldn’t cope with the volume of people all at once.

 

[sjm77]

That’s not the fault of the operators. The more i hear, the more it looks like both Liverpool FC and the council grossly underestimated numbers for the parade and the station and previous processes/staffing levels couldn’t cope with the volume of people all at once.

It was widely published that ~1 million were people were likely to attend and clearly did so. I am not sure what Liverpool FC got wrong.
But, if there were more than expected it becomes even more important to fill every train. I agree that it was not the fault of the TOCs.

 

[8J]

I've refrained from commenting on this post as I have been based at Lime St as a driver for most of my railway career, but seeing some of the drivel posted on here, I feel compelled to set the record straight on a number of things. I know exactly what went on as I was working on Monday.

The first thing to note was that reduced timetables were in operation due to engineering blockades at a number of locations. Extra trains were eventually provided at late notice by Avanti thanks to some excellent flexibility demonstrated by their traincrews. ASLEF's company council also authorised drivers to work double trips at the request of the Operations Director which was made at about 14:00 and is a very unusual request as it goes against driver's T's & C's, but one that the union accepted with the genuine safety concerns. Northern, TPE and LNWR also operated some late notice extra services to/from Lime St.

The lack of planning for the event from the TOCs was an issue, particularly for AWC and LNWR. One thing I cannot fault the TOCs for was their response on the day to dealing with the sheer numbers of people. That praise should be shared to all grades. The TOC staff on the ground at Lime St on Monday in all grades were excellent as well as TOC control and resources staff. They should all be recognised for their excellent work.

The blame for what went wrong lies solely with NR, the BTP and the security contractors on the station who were controlling the queues. NR decided that they had a tried and tested plan from previous large scale events (The Giants and previous LFC trophy parades). I can tell you from previous experience that these events were not successfully managed and lessons should have been learnt.

Should heads roll? Absolutely they should! Northern's station team leader on duty that night was trying to communicate with NR and security staff on duty that trains were leaving half empty and requested that more passengers were let through. He was told in no uncertain terms to go away and not interfere with their operation.

There should be an inquiry in to events that unfolded on Monday 26/05/2025 with findings published.