Gemini Trains - Another New International Open Access Application

[martin2345uk]

“

As far as I am aware only the domestic platforms allow trains to reverse.

That is correct.

 

[Zomboid]

From aerial photos Ebbsfleet has the same issue.
Reversals towards France look possible at Ashford, though.

 

[Peterthegreat]

“

That is correct.

View attachment 180463

Thank you for confirming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2025 ==

From aerial photos Ebbsfleet has the same issue.
Reversals towards France look possible at Ashford, though.

Yes trains can be reversed at Ashford but it needs to be carefully managed.

 

[Doomotron]

I wonder if getting any of those stations operational (I can't see Stratford International being viable at all) would result in Eurostar suddenly deciding to use those stations again to undermine the competition?

In the very unlikely event there's a market and it's profitable, I imagine Eurostar would consider it. But as has been proven time and again, just because one company does something doesn't mean another can copy its success. As a non-rail example, Irish Ferries overestimated the market for their Dover to Calais route and cut the fleet by half last year. Similarly, if Gemini Trains proved there's a market for international services from Ebbsfleet or Ashford, it's unlikely Eurostar would be able to match their success. The location of the stations, as I said before, makes them effectively useless for people living outside of Kent and East Sussex.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Now on IanVisits. Still seems highly unlikely to me.

“Although not intended to be used as a terminus, the tracks include crossovers that would permit arriving trains to stop at the station and then reverse over onto the outbound tracks when heading back to mainland Europe”

Uber could run train services between Stratford International and Paris

Uber branded trains could be calling at Stratford International soon, as Gemini Trains, one of the new rail companies aiming to break Eurostar’s monopoly through the Channel Tunnel, says it plans to use the station as its London terminus.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

I've had a look at my Track Atlas and I can't see a crossover between St Pancras and Dagenham. HS1 is fully bi-di but running wrong road for several miles to access a crossover at Dagenham is unlikely to be an option. And if there's room to reverse in St Pancras they may as well serve St Pancras and Stratford.

 

[Doomotron]

I've had a look at my Track Atlas and I can't see a crossover between St Pancras and Dagenham. HS1 is fully bi-di but running wrong road for several miles to access a crossover at Dagenham is unlikely to be an option. And if there's room to reverse in St Pancras they may as well serve St Pancras and Stratford.

It does make me wonder if anyone actually checked if it could be done. I'd imagine an overenthusiastic employee seeing that Stratford had not been used as an international station, which then lead to the marketing department publicly announcing they'd be operating out of Stratford before looking further into it. I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement that they'd be using Stratford and Ebbsfleet was largely driven by a want to appeal to people permanently complaining about Eurostar withdrawing services to Kent.

 

[TheWierdOne]

It does make me wonder if anyone actually checked if it could be done. I'd imagine an overenthusiastic employee seeing that Stratford had not been used as an international station, which then lead to the marketing department publicly announcing they'd be operating out of Stratford before looking further into it. I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement that they'd be using Stratford and Ebbsfleet was largely driven by a want to appeal to people permanently complaining about Eurostar withdrawing services to Kent.

I struggle to believe that they haven’t checked at least in a cursory manner given that the company is headed up by some people with at least passing knowledge of rail

 

[Doomotron]

I struggle to believe that they haven’t checked at least in a cursory manner given that the company is headed up by some people with at least passing knowledge of rail

...Which makes it all the more surprising that they gave it the green light.

 

[Trainlog]

Ebbsfleet is really well located for the A2 (M2), and therefore the M25 and a lot of South East England. It's not intended to be accessed by rail (though actually the SE trains do provide a good link to North Kent).

Ashford has a different catchment and is easier to get to by rail from most of Kent, but not anywhere else. Arguably the M20 gives it nearly equivalent accessibility from the southern side of the M25 as Ebbsfleet.

Stratford was always a bit pointless as an international station. Since it doesn't actually connect with the domestic station, GA travellers might as well carry on to Liverpool St and get the circle line to St Pancras.

That's the thing, Ashford is ideal for both rail and road access. It's one of the few towns that can cope with traffic in this county so the M20 part wouldn't be much of an issue. Even if traffic were an issue from those travelling from further away from Kent to use the service at Ashford, I can imagine it would still be preferable to London crowds or using the tube to access St Pancras.

As I said in my original post, Ashford would work best to draw people away from London and use the domestic services to access Ashford International. For most towns here, it's either one or two trains to get there and they would be dropped off at their local station than Ashford International to save the parking hassle.

Ebbsfleet will only make Kent's roads and domestic high-speed worse. I appreciate that coastbound is still bad here for Motorways. However, I can imagine drawing more cars onto the motorways, London-bound, would be worse, especially if that extra traffic adds to traffic heading towards Bluewater, Essex, and the M25 in general.

I can see where your coming from on this, however, if Kent was to reopen just one of them, Ashford would still benefit the county more than Ebbsfleet. Though if Gemini does follow through on its promise for 2029, it will unfortunately just reopen Ebbsfleet instead.

 

[Zomboid]

The problem there is that people from Kent is not a big enough demographic to make the service viable. Ebbsfleet opens up a much wider group of people who might want to use the service than Ashford would.

To be honest, I think that the best solution would be both, but it's all academic since it isn't going to happen anyway.

 

[londonteacher]

I've had a look at my Track Atlas and I can't see a crossover between St Pancras and Dagenham. HS1 is fully bi-di but running wrong road for several miles to access a crossover at Dagenham is unlikely to be an option. And if there's room to reverse in St Pancras they may as well serve St Pancras and Stratford.

But I suppose if there is will then crossovers could be added. Where there is will there is a way and all that!

 

[zwk500]

But I suppose if there is will then crossovers could be added. Where there is will there is a way and all that!

The line is in twin-tube tunnels all the way from St Pancras to Stratford and then Stratford to Dagenham. It'd need a rather large amount of financial "willpower" to persuade HS1 to knock a big hole in their tunnels to put extra crossovers in...

From aerial photos Ebbsfleet has the same issue.

Reversals at Ebbsfleet from Europe are possible in one international platform only unless you run wrong-road to Singlewell. (1 and 4 are the international platforms at Ebbsfleet).

The other factor in starting short of St Pancras is the depot question. The chord to access Temple Mills joins west of Stratford and there are (currently) no alternative stabling facilities for international passenger trains this side of the channel. While sets can be stabled in platforms if necessary, this has it's own problems so that's adding to the list of problems that are going to cost money to solve. Perfectly possible solutions exist, but whether they are viable as long-term business plans I don't know.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Is the NLL link not useable as a reversing point?

 

[zwk500]

Is the NLL link not useable as a reversing point?

Don't believe the Signalling was ever commissioned, although of course it could be. However you'd still be charged for the track access of running from Stratford to nearly St Pancras and back. More cost to push on to the punters baording at Stratford and Ebbsfleet...