Should members of the public report possible hot boxes?

[Teapot42]

I'm just reading Max S's analysis of the East Palestine accident on Medium, where a failed bearing was not picked up by the hot box detector, leading to a significant derailment and fire.

This reminded me of a situation many years back where I was waiting for a train at Davenport, and a freight passed in the opposite direction with one wheel smoking. At the time I wasn't sure what to do, so mentioned it to the guard on my train when they finally came around, but this was probably 20 minutes after the freight had passed.

In a similar situation, what would the most useful response be? Should / could I have used the phone on the signal at the end of the platform to warn the signaller, or are these not usable by the public? In those days it was before mobiles were common, but is there now someone to call to raise concerns like this?

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Network rail have a 24 hour emergency number that you can contact if there is an emergency or a concern, image attached below with description taken from a quick google search.

Whilst signal post telephones etc are generally marked "not for public use" I am sure that a common sense approach to you picking it up and using it in an emergency would not be frowned upon!

 

[hacman]

If you see something that you are reasonably concerned about, contact Network Rail, the TOC, or better yet, a member of staff.

Worst case, you bother someone over nothing, but you could prevent an issue.

The key is to be polite, not overstate or exaggerate what you see, give as much clear detail as you can, and leave it to the appropriate people to sort out once you've let them know.

Avoid using any phones or anything that is marked as not for public use - there are well-published numbers you can use to contact the relevant people if no staff are around (the obvious exception would be if you observe something that clearly represents an immediate risk to life, in which case you do what you need to do).

 

[dk1]

Hot Axle Box Detecters (HABDs) do that job pretty well. The traincrew would hopefully notice or smell something was wrong. Thankfully a pretty rare occurrence these days. I’ve only twice in 27 years driving had to use a temple stick.

 

[Deepgreen]

Of course, the inane universal message regarding if "something doesn't look right" of "see it, say it, sorted" would perhaps lead the uninitiated to use that.

 

[Sun Chariot]

April last year, I photographed the 6O68 Westbury to Crawley; fifth wagon from rear was squealing deafeningly & smoking noticeably. I presume it was a dragging brake, rather than a hot box? Photo attached.
As I was not near a station, post #2's info is useful; I'll keep it on my phone for future reference.

 

[Deepgreen]

Hot Axle Box Detecters (HABDs) do that job pretty well. The traincrew would hopefully notice or smell something was wrong. Thankfully a pretty rare occurrence these days. I’ve only twice in 27 years driving had to use a temple stick.

I very much doubt if a driver of a freight would be aware of anything wrong with a wagon well back from the loco until it was too late - certainly it would be extremely unlikely for the smell to carry forward to the driver (against the direction of travel).

 

[dk1]

I very much doubt if a driver of a freight would be aware of anything wrong with a wagon well back from the loco until it was too late - certainly it would be extremely unlikely for the smell to carry forward to the driver (against the direction of travel).

Oh yes of course. I was thinking more of passenger services. The HABDs should do their job if provided. With freight it often seems to be a handbrake left on that causes problems.

 

[ExRes]

In a similar situation, what would the most useful response be? Should / could I have used the phone on the signal at the end of the platform to warn the signaller, or are these not usable by the public? In those days it was before mobiles were common, but is there now someone to call to raise concerns like this?

20 odd years ago I was taking empty postal vans to Ashford Yard after running round at Tonbridge Yard, stopping at a red the Signaller told me that a member of the public had used a station signal post phone to report that smoke and flames were coming off one of the van bogies, I think that chap deserved a big pat on the back for getting involved, something which most people wouldn't, it was rather ironic considering the amount of false HABD reports that caused delays while checking perfectly normal vans

 

[Teapot42]

20 odd years ago I was taking empty postal vans to Ashford Yard after running round at Tonbridge Yard, stopping at a red the Signaller told me that a member of the public had used a station signal post phone to report that smoke and flames were coming off one of the van bogies, I think that chap deserved a big pat on the back for getting involved, something which most people wouldn't, it was rather ironic considering the amount of false HABD reports that caused delays while checking perfectly normal vans

Had it been obviously on fire then I don't think I'd have hesitated to use the signal phone to call (or a suitable emergency number these days).

As has been suggested further up the thread, it was most likely a trailing brake. I recall smoke but nothing more - obviously not right, but also not an immediate danger.

The analysis I mentioned suggested that in the case of the accident in the US, the HABD had failed to register a warning, likely because it was detecting the wrong side of the wheel. It did suggest that issues could be missed, due to the 'hot' area being masked by other parts of the wagon. Do the devices used over here have the same shortcomings?

The article in question in here.

 

[skyhigh]

Of course, the inane universal message regarding if "something doesn't look right" of "see it, say it, sorted" would perhaps lead the uninitiated to use that.

BTP can and do pass safety concerns reported via 61016 to Network Rail. If you don't know any other methods of contact it's definitely not the worst thing you can do (and better than doing nothing).

 

[Saint66]

I was actually on a GWR IET service early last year that passed a level crossing where a member of the public heard or saw something strange, who then got in contact with NR/GWR to report the issue.

Our service was stopped for about 20 minutes, not in a station, while the driver went to inspect the issue before we carried on.

 

[driverd]

Had it been obviously on fire then I don't think I'd have hesitated to use the signal phone to call (or a suitable emergency number these days).

As has been suggested further up the thread, it was most likely a trailing brake. I recall smoke but nothing more - obviously not right, but also not an immediate danger.

The analysis I mentioned suggested that in the case of the accident in the US, the HABD had failed to register a warning, likely because it was detecting the wrong side of the wheel. It did suggest that issues could be missed, due to the 'hot' area being masked by other parts of the wagon. Do the devices used over here have the same shortcomings?

The article in question in here.

Honestly, I don't have the expertise to say whether our detectors would have the same shortcomings. As a driver, generally your only interaction with a HABD is if it detects a hot axle. The only time this has happened to me it was in error (suspect it may have been an exhaust). It was very common for 153s, for example, to trigger them due to exhaust heat early on in their career before the units received modification to rectify (though in my case it wasn't a 153).

Anyhow, in your situation, I'd personally absolutely report it. If you're confident enough to strongly suspect its a hot axle box and to know what a signal post/lineside telephone is, then I don't think anyone would call you out for reporting it. Whilst HABDs are used in the UK, they're not thrown around like salt on chips - you can go a good few miles without seeing one - certainly far enough to do a good amount of expensive damage. I'm sure genuine concern would be well received.

 

[GoneSouth]

Of course, the inane universal message regarding if "something doesn't look right" of "see it, say it, sorted" would perhaps lead the uninitiated to use that.

Inane it maybe, but it’s a way in for people who wouldn’t have a network rail number tucked away on their phone, which I would suggest is more than 99% of people using the railway. I assume the number connects you to BTP who should know exactly what to do in an emergency so why not use it?

 

[Deepgreen]

Inane it maybe, but it’s a way in for people who wouldn’t have a network rail number tucked away on their phone, which I would suggest is more than 99% of people using the railway. I assume the number connects you to BTP who should know exactly what to do in an emergency so why not use it?

It's just the abysmal so-called 'catch-phrase' that grates so much - I wonder how many who hear it actually do remember or take note of the number, rather than the phrase.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

Oh yes of course. I was thinking more of passenger services. The HABDs should do their job if provided. With freight it often seems to be a handbrake left on that causes problems.

Indeed - I was just referring back to the OP's freight instance.

 

[trainmania100]

Hot Axle Box Detecters (HABDs) do that job pretty well. The traincrew would hopefully notice or smell something was wrong. Thankfully a pretty rare occurrence these days. I’ve only twice in 27 years driving had to use a temple stick.

Seems theres more of them than WILDs,

HABDs and WILDs

hot axle box detectors and wheel impact load detectors

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

But are there enough? I can't see on the above list (apart from a WILD at Salfords) any hot axle boxes anywhere on the BML or south, if something happened on the BML due to wagon defect it could cause major delays (and has done).

Obviously the document could be out of date but there doesn't seem like a great deal of detectors in place from what I can see

 

[Russel]

there are well-published numbers you can use to contact the relevant people if no staff are around

Disagree, other than 61016, no other numbers are well published at all.

Ask any passenger, 99% will just give you a blank look.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’d have just used the phone to contact the signaller. Better to be told it’s nothing then think it’s nothing and find out it wasn’t.

I always think of the Eschede train crash, a passenger noticed the issue before the wheel fractured and reported it to the guard. By the time he’d found the guard it was too late,

 

[FrontSideBus]

I think that was a case of not wanting to pull the emergency handle in case they got fined, but if that was me, if a big chunk of metal came through the floor... I'm pulling the handle!!!

 

[Railcar]

On a Victoria-bound stopping train that was approaching Selhurst, I heard a bang-bang-bang sound which seemed to me to be flat on a wheel (it varied with speed). Finding a piece of paper, I noted the number of the carriage and where it was in the formation and moved forward to the first carriage. At Clapham Junction, I exited and attracted the attention of the driver and gave him the paper with a shouted explanation.

 

[DelW]

In the case of the Llangennech derailment and fire in 2020, the RAIB report says that members of the public had heard something amiss, and the train had passed through a HABD, some 8 miles and 14 minutes before the wreck occurred. It's not clear whether any of those people had tried to warn anyone about the issue at the time or not.

See this page from the report:

(image of p16 of RAIB report).

Had the warning from either been seen and acted upon, the huge environmental damage from the fire and oil spill, the substantial damage to the track and train, and disruption to passenger services in the following days, might all have been avoided.

 

[Horizon22]

In the case of the Llangennech derailment and fire in 2020, the RAIB report says that members of the public had heard something amiss, and the train had passed through a HABD, some 8 miles and 14 minutes before the wreck occurred. It's not clear whether any of those people had tried to warn anyone about the issue at the time or not.

See this page from the report:
View attachment 180880
(image of p16 of RAIB report).

Had the warning from either been seen and acted upon, the huge environmental damage from the fire and oil spill, the substantial damage to the track and train, and disruption to passenger services in the following days, might all have been avoided.

Bystander effect, which I guess is probably more of an issue in a regulated industry where your average member of the public probably things "well someone must know".

In this vein, I know there was a recent issue near me of a broken rail being reported by a member of the public. It was treated relatively seriously, and the next train through reported a significant crack and the line was closed. What was more concerning was that trains had been running at line speed for a good few hours and it had relatively recently been inspected with no reports prior.

 

[DerekC]

In late 1978 or early1979 I was walking along a public footpath beside a line north of Northallerton station with two small daughters. I think it was the Northallerton - Yarm line. A diesel (I am afraid I can't recall the type but it might have been a 47) went past me accelerating hard from the station stop with a northbound passenger train, with long orange flames coming out from somewhere around the rear bogie. Not knowing what else to do (long before the days of mobile phones) I walked along to a handy signal on the up line, nipped over the fence and picked up the phone. The signaller took the call, interrogated me briefly about who I was and what the hell I was doing on railway property but then took it seriously. I phoned later from my home landline and managed to get put through to control who told me that the train had been stopped and the fire extinguished (they thought it was spilled fuel which had ignited) without much damage to the loco. Neither of my daughters can recall the event (they were only 4 and 2 years old). I still can't quite believe my own memory, but the picture of the flames is quite vivid.

 

[billh]

Inane it maybe, but it’s a way in for people who wouldn’t have a network rail number tucked away on their phone, which I would suggest is more than 99% of people using the railway. I assume the number connects you to BTP who should know exactly what to do in an emergency so why not use it?

The name to remember is INYALA ( not inane) Thompson B1 Antelope class 4-6-0 number 61016
On a more serious note would one report wheel flats particularly on heavy freight trains? A 2000tonne stone train banging along at 30mph can't be doing the track any good. When does a wheel flat become a safety issue?

 

[zwk500]

Seems theres more of them than WILDs,

HABDs and WILDs

hot axle box detectors and wheel impact load detectors

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

But are there enough? I can't see on the above list (apart from a WILD at Salfords) any hot axle boxes anywhere on the BML or south, if something happened on the BML due to wagon defect it could cause major delays (and has done).

Obviously the document could be out of date but there doesn't seem like a great deal of detectors in place from what I can see

HABDs have an installation and maintenance cost attached, so you want to put them places where they'll be doing a job. That means having a reasonable volume of traffic where Hot Axles could be found (e.g. not too close to terminals where trains have just originated), but to maintain them you also need to place them in suitable positions to access. For the trains, you need to place them appropriately on the network so that flagged traffic can be pulled off into an appropriate loop or yard with road access if something needs to be inspected or even repaired/made safe before onwards transit, without pulling signals to red in front of the driver.

HABDs also don't detect every problem, so there's plenty of reasons a wagon defect would block a line fitted with HABDs.

 

[matchmaker]

Many years ago I was out on a New Years Day walk with my family which took us over a footpath crossing. It was a very cold day and as we were crossing I was a large break in one of the rails. Being Scotland there were no trains that day. At the crossing was a NR (or was it Railtrack?) noticeboard which had a Glasgow number on it. Being an early adaptor of technology, I actually had a mobile phone, so rang the number and reported the fault.

Next day I took a walk and saw that there was a temporary repair made plus a TSR in force. The fault wouldn't have been detected by a track circuit fault, as the line was absolute block and at this point well in rear of the distant signal.

 

[Northerngirl]

Surely the emergency call points (the big white circle with a speaker in it) at many stations would be the go to option, who do they actually call because I've always assumed it's NR not BTP

 

[WAB]

Surely the emergency call points (the big white circle with a speaker in it) at many stations would be the go to option, who do they actually call because I've always assumed it's NR not BTP

Sometimes TOC Control, sometimes 999, sometimes BTP. The stupidity of this inconsistency has been discussed previously.