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Crowd Management at Liverpool Lime Street after Parade

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Wilts Wanderer

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This reminds me of two things:

1. The experience of Liverpool fans in Paris for the CL Final, where seemingly the authorities did not know how to cope with the expected volume of supporters and there was (incorrect) intel that tickets were not valid - so the response of the authorities was seemingly to close gates and block all fans from entering the venue to avoid a crush inside, thereby creating several dangerous experiences outside, very Hillsborough-esque (with added muggings / thievery due to some of the locals)

2. An experience I personally had in Lisbon after a Foo Fighters concert in 2017, where the venue was adjacent to a smallish railway station from which a frequent service was laid on back to the city from about 1hr before the end of the event until about 2hrs afterward… which almost nobody managed to travel on because a) nobody was leaving early, and b) the station rear entrance could not cope with an influx of 40,000 people at once, so the police created a long (2-3 mile) circuitous route over nearby road flyovers which meant, by the time we’d traversed it, all the extra trains had gone empty. So thousands of pax crammed into the station for several hours overnight and swamped the morning commuter services instead, including a crush that pretty-much dislocated my arm and left my wife and others extremely distressed. So a good example of providing the required capacity but then taking decisions that prevented customers from using it, and creating a far more dangerous situation overall.
 
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sjm77

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I have checked realtimetrains. Scheduled between 18:30 and 19:30 (starting with the 18:31 to Wigan and ending with the 1927 to Manchester Vic') there were 12 departures from Lime Street upper level. Those trains between them had 60 coaches, and could have taken at lest 6,000 people. The concourse was empty at 18:30, and only a few hundred people were actually allowed into the station during that time, whilst at least 10,000 people were locked out. If the trains departing each hour can take 6K people, then the queing system needs to be letting 6K people in.!
 

TUC

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Easy to blame the railway but perhaps people should be looking at the council for allowing multiple big events to be held in the city on the same weekend?

There’s only so many trains that can be released to strengthen services. You can’t force people to work their non contracted days even if they’re incentivised.
That's no excuse for not having a well communicated plan on what will be available.
 

jon1966

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My son and i were there last night and it was a total shambles and at one point quite scary.
We queued up the steps for a couple of hours ( zero station knowledge as our first visit) and pretty much joined the masses.
As we got to what we thought was the top and access to station were greeted by a barrier that we and hundreds of others were forced to clamber over.
Then to turn folk round and send them to another entrance and queue again letting 10 in at a time when thousands were facing the prospect of being crushed outside . No communication from police or station staff as to what was happening.
Weirdly once we got inside it was fairly quiet ,plenty of police and station staff just stood about.
 

Western Sunset

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With thoughts of Hillsborough still deeply ingrained in the minds of many Liverpudlians, surely kettling people like this is no way to treat folk.

I know it's very easy to blame others without all the facts; maybe I'm falling into that trap. Though clearly the railway got it wrong this time in their planning (or lack of it) and in its execution. Over and over again, railways fall down with their poor communications. Will they ever learn?
 

VItraveller

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As Mentioned above thread, I think it’s definitely worth anyone who was directly effected to right to your local MP, and the regional mares for the West Midlands and Liverpool Especially since it seems the standard exercise in arse covering has begun this is the only way lessons will be learned for the future.
And don’t let them fob you off with the police incident that happened around the same time.
 

Deepgreen

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I imagine that the problem is that warning of the huge crowds would have been too short in planning terms (i.e. only once the team had won) to provide a level of service that could have dealt with the crowds, even if it was actually possible. Laying on a service that could handle the crowds resulting from a win, and then the reality being a loss, would have been unjustifiable. Add the chaos of the car incident and there is everything needed for disarray. I would expect that the emergency services would have wanted as many people to leave the area of the incident as quickly as possible, but were thwarted by the transport issues.

However, it is a depressingly standard thing nowadays to have an absence of information provided, simply adding to the chaos. Even just announcing that there had been an incident nearby and that little was known about the latest situation would be better than silence, and there is no excuse for failing to advise about the train-related issues, that are within the purview of the railway staff. It is now the case that so much reliance has been placed on automated information systems that 'live' information has been relegated in importance, meaning that exactly when it's needed most, it's most likely to be absent!
 
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Bletchleyite

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I imagine that the problem is that warning of the huge crowds would have been too short in planning terms (i.e. only once the team had won) to provide a level of service that could have dealt with the crowds, even if it was actually possible. Laying on a service that could handle the crowds resulting from a win, and then the reality being a loss, would have been unjustifiable. Add the chaos of the car incident and there is everything needed for disarray. I would expect that the emergency services would have wanted as many people to leave the area of the incident as quickly as possible, but were thwarted by the transport issues.

The service was operating and several TOCs has increased service or lengthened trains (I believe WMT did both). The problem was the mismanagement at Lime St that caused many of those trains to go out nearly empty rather than full and standing as they should have done.
 

Deepgreen

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As Mentioned above thread, I think it’s definitely worth anyone who was directly effected to right to your local MP, and the regional mares for the West Midlands and Liverpool Especially since it seems the standard exercise in arse covering has begun this is the only way lessons will be learned for the future.
And don’t let them fob you off with the police incident that happened around the same time.
However, lessons just AREN'T learned (or if they are, aren't acted upon) - the same things happen again and again, despite promises of 'lessons to be learned'!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The service was operating and several TOCs has increased service or lengthened trains (I believe WMT did both). The problem was the mismanagement at Lime St that caused many of those trains to go out nearly empty rather than full and standing as they should have done.
So, I wonder if those trains were despatched on time or was there provision made for 'depart as required/when full'? Today's railway doesn't really do the latter, in my experience.
 

enginedin

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I imagine that the problem is that warning of the huge crowds would have been too short in planning terms (i.e. only once the team had won)
LFC were confirmed as champions on 27th April (although realistically had been treated as Champions for several weeks before because of the points and goal difference) - is 5 weeks really too short for planning, when in many situations (e.g. FA Cup) the parade will be the very next day?
 

Deepgreen

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LFC were confirmed as champions on 27th April (although realistically had been treated as Champions for several weeks before because of the points and goal difference) - is 5 weeks really too short for planning, when in many situations (e.g. FA Cup) the parade will be the very next day?
I don't know, but some TOCs might say so. I imagine where planning of stock provision, staff rosters and so on does take many weeks, the advice may well be not to use the railway or be warned that huge delays may be expected. I do know that today's railway is vastly less adaptable to these situations than it was decades ago.
 

lfc84

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the issue is the trains that were operating went out with very few passengers
 

sjm77

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So, I wonder if those trains were despatched on time or was there provision made for 'depart as required/when full'? Today's railway doesn't really do the latter, in my experience.

Many trains were departing 10 - 15 minutes late. I presume the TOCs wanted the trains to be full so waited for so long until their platform was needed by an incoming train, or the punctuality of the trains next service would be compromised. However that is a guess made by myself.
 
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enginedin

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I don't know, but some TOCs might say so.
I don't recall similar issues with in the past few weeks with:

- Crystal Palace's FA Cup parade
- Newcastle United's Carabo Cup Parade
- Tottenham's Europa Cup Parade

all of which took place at within much shorter time periods than Liverpool's PL champion's parade
 

KNN

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It doesn't sound like it was very well organised. But was there ever going to be enough capacity for the amount of people who wanted to go?

Taking a step back, even if you can get 5000 people out of the crowd to the right trains, without there being a mass stampede, how many will still be stood outside? It's likely to be tens of thousands from the reports I've heard of the numbers in the crowd.

I'm not one of these personal responsibility absolutists, but what did the people going to the parade think was going to happen?
 

aaronspence

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what did the people going to the parade think was going to happen?

How can you even begin to blame the Parade goers when you have train staff saying trains left with 3 people onboard... Its very clear where the fault is and it isnt with the paying passengers.
 

KNN

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How can you even begin to blame the Parade goers when you have train staff saying trains left with 3 people onboard... Its very clear where the fault is and it isnt with the paying passengers.
Even if people had left on those trains there would still have been a huge crowd, is what I said.

You have to read all the words.
 

lfc84

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Liverpool Echo:

When pressed on the reason behind the issues at the station, mainly the entrances being closed and shutters pulled down, Network Rail declined to go into detail about what happened.

The ECHO visited the station twice throughout the night, once at 6pm where hundreds were queuing down the steps of the station, and again at around 9pm where hundreds remained standing in the rain.
 

Lampshade

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I'm not one of these personal responsibility absolutists, but what did the people going to the parade think was going to happen?
What did we think was going to happen? Maybe the same thing that happened in 2019 and 2022 i.e. everything went without a hitch (and they were on a Sunday).

Parades are nothing new in Liverpool, they just ****ed it up this time.
 

Bletchleyite

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That there is no scenario where tens of thousands of people would have been able to take a train out of Liverpool in the timeframe. There aren't enough trains.

However a lot more should have been able to do so than actually could. The situation should have been managed so every train went out full and standing, not half empty.
 

KNN

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What did we think was going to happen? Maybe the same thing that happened in 2019 and 2022 i.e. everything went without a hitch (and they were on a Sunday).

Parades are nothing new in Liverpool, they just ****ed it up this time.
There is a thread on this forum about the same thing happening in 2019


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

However a lot more should have been able to do so than actually could. The situation should have been managed so every train went out full and standing, not half empty.
That would have been better, no one is disagreeing with that. But there would _still_ have been tens of thousands of people complaining because they hadn't planned their day out very well.
 

Ianigsy

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It sounds as if people were being let into the station in groups, regardless of where they were actually going. This has happened before at Lime Street- they don’t set up a Cardiff-style system of separating passengers by destination. Fortunately my cousin, who uses a walker and had booked assistance, was able to find somebody to let her in as she was going back to Northallerton and had stayed overnight in Manchester so wouldn’t have had anywhere to sleep.

Going back to Birkenhead, I found that the system at Central was at least moving and coping fairly well with the short headways of a full Wirral Line timetable. A few people on the platform still seemed to have missed their train- probably those wanting Ellesmere Port as they were in one queue with the Chester trains. I ended up on a West Kirby train with a few people who’d come from Telford via Wrexham and Bidston so were keeping an eye on their connections.
 

sonic2009

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There was no prior planning yesterday for the expected numbers. Parades have happened in Liverpool before for LFC to parade around the city for the fans.

Plans only came into place after all the fans headed towards Liverpool in the morning. There wasnt any extra services in place days/weeks before. The club announced the parade almost straight after the Spurs game. Lessons will be learned by the situation yesterday.
 

sjm77

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I'm not one of these personal responsibility absolutists, but what did the people going to the parade think was going to happen?

I expected it to be busy. I expected there to be some kind of crowd control / queing system. I (and people around me in the crowd) were expecting the same thing, we had a lot of time to discuss it!

1) The doors to the staation to be closed when the station was approaching a safe capacity.
2) After 10 minutes or so perhaps 3 trains would have left with, say 1,000 people on board.
3) A further 1,000 people are then let into the station.

If this would have happened we would see lots of people being let in at regular intervals, we would all be able to see progress was being made without the need for pushing, and the trains would have left full.

The fact is LESS people were allowed into station than would normally just walk in on normal Monday. The trains leaving had LESS passengers than on a normal weekday too.
 
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