VT extra Thursday evening service to Manchester

[philjo]

Press release on VT website.

It says that the extra service starts today, though not yet in the journey planners/reservation system.
Is this service using the Pretendolino stock?
First class is declassified.

http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2011/07/virgin-trains-to-run-additional-london.html

Wednesday, July 6, 2011
Virgin Trains to run additional London to Manchester train to relieve Thursday evening crowding
Virgin Trains has responded to growing customer demand by introducing an additional London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly train on Thursday evenings. Off-peak ticket holders will be able to use the new service, which will leave London Euston at 18:57, starting this Thursday 07 July.

The company had already acted last December to provide extra capacity on the route by introducing the 18:57 as a Friday evening train.

All seats on the new Thursday train will be Standard, with First Class accommodation fully de-classified. It will run to the same schedule as the Friday train, leaving London Euston at 18:57, calling at Crewe at 20:33 and arriving at Manchester Piccadilly at 21:17.

Virgin Trains’ Chief Operating Officer Chris Gibb said: "The number of journeys on Virgin Trains has more than doubled in six years - from 14 million in 2004 to over 28 million. The additional train on Fridays has had a very positive effect in reducing crowding. Increasingly we are now seeing similar issues on Thursdays, so we have moved to provide extra seats on that day too.”

The new service will initially not be shown in timetables or reservation databases but will be loaded into industry systems at the earliest possible opportunity.

 

[Ferret]

Press release on VT website.

Is say that the extra service starts today, though not yet in the journey planners/reservation system.
Is this service using the Pretendolino stock?
First class is declassified.

http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2011/07/virgin-trains-to-run-additional-london.html

Thursday evening wedgeouts are not just confined to West Coast. Some of my recent Thursday evening trains have been a tad er...how shall I put this...intimate for the passengers. Seems to be a growing trend! It's almost as though people know Friday evenings are a farce, and travel a day earlier to make a long weekend of it. And they say we don't need HS2?!

 

[PhilipW]

Is the Friday 18.57 also all Standard and available to Off Peak ticket holders.

I thought (but may be wrong) that there was a fuss when it was first introduced as it was only available to full ticket holders as it departed before 19:00 and therefore did little to remove the post 19:00 crush.

If wrong, I am happy to be corrected.

 

[All Line Rover]

Is the Friday 18.57 also all Standard and available to Off Peak ticket holders.

I thought (but may be wrong) that there was a fuss when it was first introduced as it was only available to full ticket holders as it departed before 19:00 and therefore did little to remove the post 19:00 crush.

If wrong, I am happy to be corrected.

Off-Peak tickets (Manchester to London) are valid for departing London Euston at or after 18:45, not 19:00 (which many people seem to think).

The 18:40 is peak, the following 19:00 isn't, which is why it is always packed. The 18:57 departs after 18:45, so it's an off-peak service.

 

[northwichcat]

Off-Peak tickets (Manchester to London) are valid for departing London Euston at or after 18:45, not 19:00 (which many people seem to think).

The 18:40 is peak, the following 19:00 isn't, which is why it is always packed. The 18:57 departs after 18:45, so it's an off-peak service.

Also note that £30.50 Advances are available on 18:20 and 18:50 departures. No Advances are available on the 19:00 and 19:20 and then £17 advances are available from the 19:40 departure.

 

[PhilipW]

Off-Peak tickets (Manchester to London) are valid for departing London Euston at or after 18:45, not 19:00 (which many people seem to think).

Thanks. yes, I was one who thought the switch time was 19:00 as per some other operators.

I do wish all operators could agree a common time for Peak/Off-Peak (Yes, I know I am dreaming !). It's no wonder the public get totally confused.

 

[SS4]

I do wish all operators could agree a common time for Peak/Off-Peak (Yes, I know I am dreaming !). It's no wonder the public get totally confused.

They need to be different in my opinion. There are going to be more passengers to Birmingham and Manchester than to Bangor or Lichfield.
Then you need to take into account distance and time. Without stating the obvious BHI is closer to EUS than PRE/LIV/GLC so by having a blanket time you're punishing those who need to go further.

I'd prefer to see it mentioned on departure boards at questionable times whether or not (super) off-peak tickets are accepted or not.

Back on topic any increase in capacity is good but have the paths been detailed? I mean the 18:57 is going to have to be a fast to avoid delaying the 19:00 behind it

 

[PhilipW]

They need to be different in my opinion. There are going to be more passengers to Birmingham and Manchester than to Bangor or Lichfield.
Then you need to take into account distance and time. Without stating the obvious BHI is closer to EUS than PRE/LIV/GLC so by having a blanket time you're punishing those who need to go further.

Well, I understand the logic behind your thoughts. In practice that would be a complete nightmare.
We already have different rules out of St Pancras, Kings Cross, Euston, Paddington, Waterloo etc. Even I as a railway enthusiast could not tell you all those rules without looking some of them up.

.. but to have different rules from one station e.g Euston
To make a few up:
18:15 Peak/Offpeak switch for Lancaster
18:30 Preston
18:45 Liverpool
19:00 Manchester
19:15 Birmingham
etc, etc. What a total nightmare

 

[All Line Rover]

Well, I understand the logic behind your thoughts. In practice that would be a complete nightmare.
We already have different rules out of St Pancras, Kings Cross, Euston, Paddington, Waterloo etc. Even I as a railway enthusiast could not tell you all those rules without looking some of them up.

.. but to have different rules from one station e.g Euston
To make a few up:
18:15 Peak/Offpeak switch for Lancaster
18:30 Preston
18:45 Liverpool
19:00 Manchester
19:15 Birmingham
etc, etc. What a total nightmare

What I find particularly ridiculous is that a £70 Flint to London SVR is valid...

• "Arriving London Euston at or after 1000"
• "Departing London Euston at any time except the 1610."

...whereas a £70 Chester to London SVR (it's the same price!) is valid:

• "Arriving London Euston at or after 1129"
• "Departing London Euston before and including 1500 and at or after 1845"

If you're travelling from Flint, you can arrive in London at 1004, but if you're travelling from Chester, you can only arrive in London at 1138.

If you're travelling to Flint, you can take the 15:10, 17:10 and 18:10 services from London, but if you're travelling to Chester, you can only take the 19:10 and 20:10.

 

[tbtc]

What I find particularly ridiculous is that a £70 Flint to London SVR is valid...

• "Arriving London Euston at or after 1000"
• "Departing London Euston at any time except the 1610."

...whereas a £70 Chester to London SVR (it's the same price!) is valid:

• "Arriving London Euston at or after 1129"
• "Departing London Euston before and including 1500 and at or after 1845"

If you're travelling from Flint, you can arrive in London at 1004, but if you're travelling from Chester, you can only arrive in London at 1138.

If you're travelling to Flint, you can take the 15:10, 17:10 and 18:10 services from London, but if you're travelling to Chester, you can only take the 19:10 and 20:10.

Chester has lots of posh First Class folk, who can be fleeced for more money. Flint is more marginal...

 

[northwichcat]

Chester has lots of posh First Class folk, who can be fleeced for more money. Flint is more marginal...

There's also a subsidy from the Welsh Assembly to Virgin to allow the Welsh residents to benefit from more attractive prices.

 

[tbtc]

There's also a subsidy from the Welsh Assembly to Virgin to allow the Welsh residents to benefit from more attractive prices.

I wondered whether that was the case; I know that fares are cheaper from London to Gretna than to Carlisle (presumably for similar reasons)

 

[ukrob]

Back on topic any increase in capacity is good but have the paths been detailed? I mean the 18:57 is going to have to be a fast to avoid delaying the 19:00 behind it

Surely it runs in exactly the same path as the Fridays 18.57?

 

[4SRKT]

Chester has lots of posh First Class folk, who can be fleeced for more money. Flint is more marginal...

Why don't Chester people just buy tickets from Flint?

 

[northwichcat]

Why don't Chester people just buy tickets from Flint?

A break in journey is not permitted on the outward journey on Flint-London Off Peak Return.

To add further confusion the following is a journey option from Flint:

0721 Flint-Chester
0755 Chester-Crewe
0829 Crewe-London

The last leg is on the 07:55 Manchester-London service, where some conductors refuse to accept valid tickets from North Wales destinations. See: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44761

 

[4SRKT]

A break in journey is not permitted on the outward journey on Flint-London Off Peak Return.

But surely taking a connecting train from Flint to Chester then boarding the Vomiter is permitted. How would Virgin on board staff know if someone had been on a train from Flint to Chester or not?

For example, Leeds > Leicester on the 06:34 to St Pancras is peak at around £55 return, but Shipley > Leicester on the same train is off-peak at £42.30. When I do this the EMT guard doesn't quiz me to see if I got on at Shipley or not.

 

[northwichcat]

But surely taking a connecting train from Flint to Chester then boarding the Vomiter is permitted. How would Virgin on board staff know if someone had been on a train from Flint to Chester or not?

Chester has ticket barriers. If these are programmed to not accept Flint-London outward tickets then you'll have difficulty getting on to the train at Chester.

 

[4SRKT]

Chester has ticket barriers. If these are programmed to not accept Flint-London outward tickets then you'll have difficulty getting on to the train at Chester.

But they are very unlikely to be so programmed. Going to get a newspaper etc is a perfectly good reason to leave the platforms without leaving the station. The barriers at Leeds accept outward portions of off-peak tickets from Shipley, and indeed either portion of advance tickets to/from Shipley.

 

[Lampshade]

Chester has ticket barriers. If these are programmed to not accept Flint-London outward tickets then you'll have difficulty getting on to the train at Chester.

A single to Bache (Merseyrail) soon solves that problem.

 

[Failed Unit]

Chester has ticket barriers. If these are programmed to not accept Flint-London outward tickets then you'll have difficulty getting on to the train at Chester.

Does chester have facilities that you would reasonably need to cross the ticket line to use such as cash machines, coffee shop etc? I have done this at Reading before where I have had 25 min connection. The barrier staff who let me back had no idea if I had travelled by train from Bracknell or not.

 

[4SRKT]

Does chester have facilities that you would reasonably need to cross the ticket line to use such as cash machines, coffee shop etc? I have done this at Reading before where I have had 25 min connection. The barrier staff who let me back had no idea if I had travelled by train from Bracknell or not.

It does. In short, people in the know at Chester will buy tickets from Flint, just as people in the know at Leeds buy tickets from Shipley.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does chester have facilities that you would reasonably need to cross the ticket line to use such as cash machines, coffee shop etc? I have done this at Reading before where I have had 25 min connection. The barrier staff who let me back had no idea if I had travelled by train from Bracknell or not.

Yep. Although you can simply pop outside for a cigarette. This does not count as a break of journey.

 

[Holly]

Originally Posted by tbtc View Post
Chester has lots of posh First Class folk, who can be fleeced for more money. Flint is more marginal...

Why don't Chester people just buy tickets from Flint?

Why don't the Chester people just drive to Flint? It's only a dozen miles or so.

 

[All Line Rover]

Why don't the Chester people just drive to Flint? It's only a dozen miles or so.

Because doing so seems a bit stupid? Train travel is supposed to be "green" and all - that's what Virgin tell us all the time anyway! :roll:

In my opinion this BoJ nonsense should be done away with. If you pay for a ticket valid on any train from A-C, it should still be valid on any train from B-C. When TOC's enforce a "no BoJ" rule on tickets, they're simply admitting that their ticketing structure makes no sense!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's also a subsidy from the Welsh Assembly to Virgin to allow the Welsh residents to benefit from more attractive prices.

That's the first I've heard of this.
I know VT's fares policy is subtly different in N Wales (and Scotland) than in the NW generally, but I didn't know it was by WAG direction.
I know they influence the timetable, but are you sure they subsidise fares?
The VT subsidy profile is surely determined by DfT.
Any sources?

 

[northwichcat]

That's the first I've heard of this.
I know VT's fares policy is subtly different in N Wales (and Scotland) than in the NW generally, but I didn't know it was by WAG direction.
I know they influence the timetable, but are you sure they subsidise fares?
The VT subsidy profile is surely determined by DfT.
Any sources?

It's what I've been told by quite a few people living in North Wales.

The fares wouldn't make sense if they weren't subsided. How can someone boarding a Manchester-London train at Crewe be charged over £100 more on a return than someone who's travelled to Crewe from North Wales via ATW services and then boarded the same train if there was no subsidy?

 

[tbtc]

Why don't the Chester people just drive to Flint? It's only a dozen miles or so.

Maybe the question should be "why are the Welsh wasting Assembly money on subsidising cheaper tickets for London passengers, whilst busy routes like the Valleys still struggle with 1980s trains"?

Ticket anomalies have always existed, and will always exist. Just like sometimes its cheaper to buy two small packets of a product in a supermarket than one big one

 

[Pumbaa]

It's what I've been told by quite a few people living in North Wales.

The fares wouldn't make sense if they weren't subsided. How can someone boarding a Manchester-London train at Crewe be charged over £100 more on a return than someone who's travelled to Crewe from North Wales via ATW services and then boarded the same train if there was no subsidy?

There is no Wales subsidy for the N Wales coast - it's always been talked of ans assumed to be gospel, but it isn't true. The differential prices and conditions were inherited from BR. They haven't changed dramatically since 1980s.

Simple economics determined the original pricings - Chester has lots of rich people, N Wales coast doesn't, thus £££ for Chester and only £ for Flint etc.

And of course fares system doesn't make sense. But I don't think anybody has pretended it does in the last how many years? (Other than ATOC of course!)

 

[4SRKT]

In my opinion this BoJ nonsense should be done away with. If you pay for a ticket valid on any train from A-C, it should still be valid on any train from B-C. When TOC's enforce a "no BoJ" rule on tickets, they're simply admitting that their ticketing structure makes no sense!

In effect BoJ and resuming on the same date cannot really be enforced because of all the obvious ways around it. I suppose it's in the TOCs' interest to maintain it in the rules because most people won't bother thinking of the ways around it and just pay up. They probably know some more savvy people will pay less by buying a longer distance ticket and that there is nothing they can realistically do about it, and the TOCs then budget accordingly.

 

[martinsh]

In my opinion this BoJ nonsense should be done away with. If you pay for a ticket valid on any train from A-C, it should still be valid on any train from B-C. When TOC's enforce a "no BoJ" rule on tickets, they're simply admitting that their ticketing structure makes no sense!

Assuming B is inbetween A and C, of course !