Saltney/Wrexham redoubling,question to Minister

[merlodlliw]

Received this from A.Ms Cardiff staff.

Please see question below to the Minister for Finance & Leader of the House, Jane Hutt AM, in last Wednesday’s Plenary session. (8/6/11)

Mark Isherwood: A year ago, during the business statement, I called for a statement on double tracking of the rail track between Saltney and Wrexham. The issue had been put back several times. In your response, you said that Welsh Government funding was in place for the improvements. You went on to say that you were sure that I was playing my part in ensuring that the partnership delivered with regard to the part played by Network Rail. Network Rail did respond to me. It said that the Welsh Government had asked it to focus on delivering options for increasing capacity on this section of the route between Chester and Shrewsbury and that the proposals included a partial redoubling of the Wrexham to Saltney junction route, that there were a couple of constraints, but that the timetable for the project remained broadly on track. A year later, therefore, may I call for a statement updating us on progress, advising us whether options and costs have been resubmitted, and confirming whether the new Welsh Government is still on board and supporting the project with funding?

Jane Hutt: Thank you very much to the Conservative Member for north Wales for that. There is clearly continuity in the way that we are following up business. It is important that Network Rail has responded and I am sure that the Minister will respond if a question is put to him next week or through correspondence.
...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Ill keep RF updated, the money is ring fenced from previous years. Note the change to Welsh Govt.

Bob

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I trust that the question WILL be put to the minister at the end of the period referred to. Please can you monitor this and report back to the forum, please.

 

[merlodlliw]

I trust that the question WILL be put to the minister at the end of the period referred to. Please can you monitor this and report back to the forum, please.

Yes, it will be reported back in full, hopefully next week, ill e mail the AMs staff to send me & others the responses.Ill also ask the A.M. to refer to the period mentioned..

Bob

 

[merlodlliw]

Dear Mark Isherwood AM
Please see attached response to your letter to Carl Sargeant of 13/06/2011.
Please note that no hard copy reply will issue.
Yours sincerely
Denise West.

Mark Isherwood A.M.
National Assembly for Wales
Ty Hywel
Cardiff Bay
Cardiff CF99 1 NA 28 June 2011

Dear Mark.

Thank you for your e mail of 13th June asking for an update on the progress of the two transport studies being carried out in North East Wales.

I will be prioritising the objectives of the National Transport Plan over the coming months and will publish a re-scheduled delivery plan this Autumn. The two studies proposed will be finalised once I publish the re-scheduled delivery plan.

Carl


Carl Sargeant A.M.
Minister for local Government & Communities.
Welsh Government.


Anyone wishing to see the official Ministerial reply ,please PM me.


It is also interesting that Saltney is within this Ministers Constituency, as
Anglesey was within the previous Ministers patch,this will be interesting.



Bob

 

[The Informer]

Dear Mark Isherwood AM
Please see attached response to your letter to Carl Sargeant of 13/06/2011.
Please note that no hard copy reply will issue.
Yours sincerely
Denise West.

Mark Isherwood A.M.
National Assembly for Wales
Ty Hywel
Cardiff Bay
Cardiff CF99 1 NA 28 June 2011

Dear Mark.

Thank you for your e mail of 13th June asking for an update on the progress of the two transport studies being carried out in North East Wales.

I will be prioritising the objectives of the National Transport Plan over the coming months and will publish a re-scheduled delivery plan this Autumn. The two studies proposed will be finalised once I publish the re-scheduled delivery plan.

Carl


Carl Sargeant A.M.
Minister for local Government & Communities.
Welsh Government.


Anyone wishing to see the official Ministerial reply ,please PM me.


It is also interesting that Saltney is within this Ministers Constituency, as
Anglesey was within the previous Ministers patch,this will be interesting.



Bob

I find it mad that a 2.5 mile loop at welshpool has just recently been opened with not yet an hourly service to accomodate it and still nothing on one of the most annoying bottlenecks in wales!

 

[merlodlliw]

I find it mad that a 2.5 mile loop at welshpool has just recently been opened with not yet an hourly service to accomodate it and still nothing on one of the most annoying bottlenecks in wales!

Thats politics for you. I suppose they could boast the Cambrian has the longest dynamic loop in Wales,alas moving passengers on it seems of little importance.

All that can be read into the statement is, The Saltney/Wrexham dual track is not ruled out.


Bob

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

All that can be read into the statement is, The Saltney/Wrexham dual track is not ruled out.

I suppose that is some relief. All you can do is hope, but the money for the project is still on an annual rolling "ring-fenced" basis....or will this not be time expired eventually? All good things come to an end.

P.S. The report came through in good order

 

[merlodlliw]

I suppose that is some relief. All you can do is hope, but the money for the project is still on an annual rolling "ring-fenced" basis....or will this not be time expired eventually? All good things come to an end.

P.S. The report came through in good order

My understanding is, it is ring fenced for now, but we all know how creative politicians are at finance.

One thing going for it is, Both Saltney & Wrexham are both in Ministers constituency's, Wrexham s A.M. is Welsh Minister for Health Lesley Griffiths who supports the double tracking and ATW want this bottleneck removed. Pleased to hear you got the official statement, ill keep you informed

Bob

 

[The Planner]

It is now in GRIP 4. It is worth noting that if WAG hadnt stumped up the thirty mill this would have got nowhere. You could have built the ark in the meantime but im pretty confident this will get built.

 

[The Informer]

It is now in GRIP 4. It is worth noting that if WAG hadnt stumped up the thirty mill this would have got nowhere. You could have built the ark in the meantime but im pretty confident this will get built.

It seems to have been in GRIP 4 since time began!

 

[merlodlliw]

It is now in GRIP 4. It is worth noting that if WAG hadnt stumped up the thirty mill this would have got nowhere. You could have built the ark in the meantime but im pretty confident this will get built.

Agree with you about the money, it seems to have been with Network Rail for years, most of the time grip three, I am confident it will go ahead.

 

[The Planner]

It seems to have been in GRIP 4 since time began!

Only for a couple of weeks, it has been in 3 for what seems like ever.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I find it mad that a 2.5 mile loop at welshpool has just recently been opened with not yet an hourly service to accomodate it and still nothing on one of the most annoying bottlenecks in wales!

The loop at Dyfi Jnc has been "in the ground" since 2009. Currently all service trains are using the "UP" track of the dynamic loop and only the UP platform at Welshpool station. WG are insisting on the following before contemplating actually using the investment .".....we will ensure that the reliability of the current services is fully robust before any further services will be introduced."

Anyone out there got official PPM figs for Cambrian Mainline? Period 1 this financial year was probably bad but its certainly better since then.

 

[merlodlliw]

The loop at Dyfi Jnc has been "in the ground" since 2009. Currently all service trains are using the "UP" track of the dynamic loop and only the UP platform at Welshpool station. WG are insisting on the following before contemplating actually using the investment .".....we will ensure that the reliability of the current services is fully robust before any further services will be introduced."

Anyone out there got official PPM figs for Cambrian Mainline? Period 1 this financial year was probably bad but its certainly better since then.

I am sure our good friend The Planner may know someone


Bob

 

[The Planner]

Nothing to hand, but this shows a very small graph for up to March 2011. Looks like about 92% for Feb

 

[Gareth Marston]

Nothing to hand, but this shows a very small graph for up to March 2011. Looks like about 92% for Feb

Thanks Planner that shows a pre ertms figure for a comparative value.
Of course the ppm may have nothing to do withe ertms the scenario where ertms is fine but ppm poor due to problems in West Midlands is real. we will have to watch carefully that signal cable theft at Stechford is not used as an excuse not to run an extra train between say Dovey Jnc and Barmouth at around 1800 - a big gap in the usefulness of the current Cambrian timetable.

 

[merlodlliw]

From: Denise West
Sent: 06 July 2011 13:17
To: Isherwood, Mark (Assembly Member)
Subject: Please see attached response from the Minister

Dear Mark Isherwood AM

Please see attached response to your letter to Carl Sargeant of 22/06/2011.

Please note that no hard copy reply will issue.

Yours sincerely

Denise West.


Copy is below ver batum, anyone who wants the original please PM me with an e mail address.

Mark Isherwood A.M.
Ty Hywel
Cardiff Bay
Cardiff CF99 1NA dated 6th July

Dear Mark.
Thank you for your e mail of 22 June about the dualling of the railway track between Wrexham and Saltney Junction.

The Welsh Government has funded Network Rail to produce a feasibility report on this project - the aim being to reduce journey times and deliver increased capacity improvements. We have recently received this report from Network Rail and we will be reviewing its recommendations.

I am currently prioritising the objectives of the National Transport Plan to ensure existing transport funding is used effectively and the level of resources enhanced. A re-scheduled delivery plan will be published this Autumn. This will include my conclusions on the re-doubling of the railway line between Wrexham and Saltney Junction.

Carl Sargeant
Minister for Local Government and Communities

CS/05344/11

This is the second written response from the Minister, at least we now know that Network Rails report is now concluded & sent, after what seems years in its preparation, it is my understanding pressure as been put on NR in the past month to get the costings to the Minister following questions raised in the Senedd that require answers.

 

[The Informer]

Thanks Planner that shows a pre ertms figure for a comparative value.
Of course the ppm may have nothing to do withe ertms the scenario where ertms is fine but ppm poor due to problems in West Midlands is real. we will have to watch carefully that signal cable theft at Stechford is not used as an excuse not to run an extra train between say Dovey Jnc and Barmouth at around 1800 - a big gap in the usefulness of the current Cambrian timetable.

Just going back to cambrian punctuality its 88.4% period 25th may to 25th june.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Just going back to cambrian punctuality its 88.4% period 25th may to 25th june.

Have to be careful here as whats described as "Cambrian" in the publicly released stats is in fact the ex Central Trains services that were handed over to the Wales and Border franchise so includes BHM INTL TO SALOP-Wrexham-Chester trains as well.

 

[jones_bangor]

This is the second written response from the Minister, at least we now know that Network Rails report is now concluded & sent, after what seems years in its preparation, it is my understanding pressure as been put on NR in the past month to get the costings to the Minister following questions raised in the Senedd that require answers.

Hopefully this Minister will realise that the cost-benefits just don't add up with this - a good feasibility should make this clear.

Cost: High
Time savings: Minimal

Vs Speeding up sections on the Marches and North Wales Coast
Cost: High
Time savings: Significant

When your capital budget has been effectively halved............

 

[The Planner]

Which is great if you are looking at journey time improvements, this is a capacity scheme. Getting trains to Wrexham/Chester earlier doesn't mean you can fit them down the single track. It is all very well speeding the Marches up until they come to a grinding halt outside Piccadilly and at Maindee Jn as they can't get a path, you'll just end up sitting at Shrewsbury and Crewe longer.

 

[The Informer]

Have to be careful here as whats described as "Cambrian" in the publicly released stats is in fact the ex Central Trains services that were handed over to the Wales and Border franchise so includes BHM INTL TO SALOP-Wrexham-Chester trains as well.

Well that figure was taken off the notice board at machynlleth!

 

[tbtc]

Hopefully this Minister will realise that the cost-benefits just don't add up with this - a good feasibility should make this clear.

Cost: High
Time savings: Minimal

Vs Speeding up sections on the Marches and North Wales Coast
Cost: High
Time savings: Significant

When your capital budget has been effectively halved............

Improving top speeds is a bit of a waste of time when there's a decent chance that some long distance services will be run by 150s due to stock problems.

The Marches line is as fast as most rural secondary routes. The bottleneck at Wrexham seems a bigger issue (knowing the problems the single track at Dore causes), the problem is that I'm not aware of any additional services which would run that way (are they spending the money just to make existing services more reliable, or because there's scope for new train services?)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Improving top speeds is a bit of a waste of time when there's a decent chance that some long distance services will be run by 150s due to stock problems.

The Marches line is as fast as most rural secondary routes. The bottleneck at Wrexham seems a bigger issue (knowing the problems the single track at Dore causes), the problem is that I'm not aware of any additional services which would run that way (are they spending the money just to make existing services more reliable, or because there's scope for new train services?)

Its inherently about flexibility - the single track section and times through it "lock" long distance services into certain times and this cascades far and wide the section sees Holyhead to Milford Haven services over it as well as effecting the entire north wales coast, Marches and Salop to Birmingham lines. The Holyhead trains leave Shrewsbury a couple of minutes before Cambrian arrivals at the moment which is a big bug bear with SARPA members.

 

[jones_bangor]

I calculated the train speed over the section (Wrexham Central - Saltney Junction) today at 60mph in a 158 on Birmingham - Holyhead.

Again, I go back to my point that linespeed should be the priority between Saltney and Wrexham / Shrewsbury...

 

[The Planner]

No it shouldn't, it should be capacity. As we have talked about before in the past you need some sort of IB solution between Gobowen and Shrewsbury.

 

[daikilo]

No it shouldn't, it should be capacity. As we have talked about before in the past you need some sort of IB solution between Gobowen and Shrewsbury.

I think you are both right. The critical point is the feed through the single line section, but this is irrelevant if the feed can not be sustained due another bottleneck such as the above.

 

[merlodlliw]

No it shouldn't, it should be capacity. As we have talked about before in the past you need some sort of IB solution between Gobowen and Shrewsbury.

Capacity is key to the future,loose the double tracking money to other areas & it wont come back,Politicians saved less than half £million by single tracking the bridges a few years ago for the Wrexham Bypass, now its £42millions to put it right, capacity for three trains an hour only between The largest town in North Wales and West Cheshire's largest conabation is unrealistic.

Not being perdantic, but Wrexham Centrals line runs to Shotton not Saltney.

 

[jones_bangor]

Sorry - yes - the journey was Wrexham General - Shotton!!

 

[The Informer]

I calculated the train speed over the section (Wrexham Central - Saltney Junction) today at 60mph in a 158 on Birmingham - Holyhead.

Again, I go back to my point that linespeed should be the priority between Saltney and Wrexham / Shrewsbury...

You couldn't run a train any faster along that section. Capacity is the issue! And I agree with making an IB section between Gobowen and Wrexham! Linespeeds can only be increased when they rid of ALL the jointed track sections. Especially BR1 and Lockspike type baseplates, of which there is plenty between salop and chester!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No it shouldn't, it should be capacity. As we have talked about before in the past you need some sort of IB solution between Gobowen and Shrewsbury.

Just reading that again Planner but don't you mean between wrexham and gobowen? There is already an IB section between Salop and Gobowen approx half way at Stanwardine. There is 4 colour light signals in total in this area. 2 for each line, a distant followed by a controlled signal that are both operated from Crewe Jnc. CJ200 controls the UP and CJ201 the down, obviously once a train is passed either signal then another is sent straight in!