ALR (London before 9.30am)

[garnon]

Firstly, apologies for starting a new thread.

I have just been shown an email from an East Coast guard that reinforces the pre 9.30am rule. It seems to go further (and i confess it was hard to read all of it at speed) and states that there are no exceptions, and ALR holders would need to pay the full single fare to Peterborough.

I asked about the split ticket to Finsbury Park, and the answer was a certain 'no'.

Is this one guard's misunderstanding or have ATOC clarified the wording that allowed ALR's to be combined with point to point ticket ?

 

[sonic2009]

this may help :

The All Lines Rail Rover is NOT valid for boarding or alighting train services operated by CrossCountry, East Coast, East Midlands Trains, or Virgin Trains before 10:00 Mondays to Fridays at the following stations:

Birmingham New Street
Bedford
London Euston
London Kings Cross
London St Pancras International
Luton
Luton Airport Parkway
Milton Keynes Central
Stevenage
Watford Junction


No restrictions apply on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays.

also the ticket is classed as a leisure travel pass!! and does appear in the NRCOC, so a split is valid.

 

[transportphoto]

The ALR is classed as a 'Leisure Travel Pass' as defined in the NRCoC Section 19:

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket
(excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes.

also in Section 19 is:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

So therefore, in my interpretation, the split is valid and the train doesn't have to stop at the split station.

TP

 

[LexyBoy]

Is this one guard's misunderstanding or have ATOC clarified the wording that allowed ALR's to be combined with point to point ticket ?

Was it ever confirmed from ATOC that it was valid? I've always considered it a rather contentious proposal.

 

[OwlMan]

Yhe problem is that the restriction is not standard wording. It states
The All Lines Rail Rover is NOT valid for boarding or alighting train services operated ........................
The key words being "boarding or alighting". If you split your ticket at Finsbury Park it can be argued that as you Boarded at Kings Cross your ALR is not valid and will only become valid when you can board the train (i.e.first stop) after the restictions - Peterborough (if it stops there).


Peter

 

[LexyBoy]

collybs, that would be my interpretation (not saying it's correct, just that I'd not want to try my luck!). You cannot board the train in that example with just the FPK ticket, as that alone is not valid - it is the combination covering the full journey which is valid.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Boarding is the act of getting onto the train.

Alighting is the act of getting off the train.

If I have a single from Kings cross to Finsbury Park and a leisure pass for onward travel, I am entitled to get on board using the single and travel upto Finsbury Park, the leisure pass then covers the remaining journey.

At what point have I used the Leisure pass to board the train?

 

[yorkie]

I have just been shown an email from an East Coast guard that reinforces the pre 9.30am rule. It seems to go further (and i confess it was hard to read all of it at speed) and states that there are no exceptions, and ALR holders would need to pay the full single fare to Peterborough.

It's not up to an East Coast guard, it's just his/her opinion. EC guards vary from extremely reasonable and friendly, to acting in a way that is quite frankly incorrect. If you read the East Coast PTUs, it's obvious that some EC guards do not act correctly consistently enough.

I'm with hairyhandedfool this time. Given recent developments, there's much more I agree with him than disagree with.

Also I recall someone from ATOC said something along the lines that this loophole is valid but if too many people use it, and business people start using it, then they will consider tightening it up further (though it is tricky to envisage how they'd do this).

If anyone was issued an Unpaid Fare Notice for a ticket to Peterborough, while I cannot guarantee success, I would be reasonably confident of it. I would also be asking EC to give the guard re-training and seek assurances about staff training. EC are also subject to the Freedom of Information Act, and I have contacts who know people high up in the company and would use them to the maximum extent possible.

Let's face it, ATOC were never really bothered about enthusiasts using this ticket for peak journeys. The problem was that due to the publicity Adonis caused it to get, business users started using it, and that is what ATOC are concerned about!

 

[garnon]

It's not up to an East Coast guard, it's just his/her opinion. EC guards vary from extremely reasonable and friendly, to acting in a way that is quite frankly incorrect. If you read the East Coast PTUs, it's obvious that some EC guards do not act correctly consistently enough.

I'm with hairyhandedfool this time. Given recent developments, there's much more I agree with him than disagree with.

Also I recall someone from ATOC said something along the lines that this loophole is valid but if too many people use it, and business people start using it, then they will consider tightening it up further (though it is tricky to envisage how they'd do this).

If anyone was issued an Unpaid Fare Notice for a ticket to Peterborough, while I cannot guarantee success, I would be reasonably confident of it. I would also be asking EC to give the guard re-training and seek assurances about staff training. EC are also subject to the Freedom of Information Act, and I have contacts who know people high up in the company and would use them to the maximum extent possible.

Let's face it, ATOC were never really bothered about enthusiasts using this ticket for peak journeys. The problem was that due to the publicity Adonis caused it to get, business users started using it, and that is what ATOC are concerned about!

In fairness this guard was entirely reasonable. Trying to avoid a tricky situation later in the week perhaps?

The email was issued in the last few days and had a 10 day 'period of grace'...that is why i wondered whether ATOC had just tightened the rules.

If no-one has heard that this has happened, then it is more likely that East Coast are just waking up to the morning restriction and this particular guard has not come across (or does not recall) ATOC section 19.

Perhaps Yorkie's contact could offer clarification on the intent of the communication?

 

[yorkie]

In fairness this guard was entirely reasonable.

The vast majority are! But there are a number who are not, and they are quite well known, (and can be 'desperate' with other staff too!)

Perhaps Yorkie's contact could offer clarification on the intent of the communication?

I know nothing about this communication (other than what you've posted here), but I can do some 'digging' if you can PM me some more info

 

[DaveNewcastle]

We should bear in mind that this restriction does NOT apply to northbound departures from Kings Cross on Hull Trains nor Grand Central.

The restriction affecting EC departures before 10:00hrs was publicised last year, and sent as a reminder to staff in December in these terms:

Please note that All Line Rovers sold for travel
on or after the 2nd January 2011 now carry some
off-peak time restrictions, which will bring it into
line with all other period Rovers.
• On East Coast the restriction is: Not valid for
boarding or alighting train services at London
Kings Cross or Stevenage before 10.00
Mondays – Fridays.
• NOTE: East Coast will actually allow it to be
used at Stevenage 09.55 or later for consistent
validity on the Harrogate-London train.
• There continue to be no time restrictions on East
Coast for journeys entirely north of Stevenage.

there's no mention of any attempt to dis-allow the ticket combinations which are permitted by NRCoC 19 and it beggars belief that any interpretaion of that Rule can be found which disallows a combination of tickets including an ALR as proposed. Indeed, EC then published later guidance indicating that some staff may have been disallowing similar combinations, wrongly

Use of Travelcard Season tickets plus Boundary
Extension tickets, e.g. to Stevenage.

Apologies to all those who have read this item in the
past, but some customers are still being told that this
combination of tickets are not valid on our services.
They are.

The NRCoC states:
19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as
long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special
conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you
change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for
this purpose does not include Season Tickets or
travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger
transport executive or local authority) or a leisure
travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
Therefore where one ticket is a season ticket (a
period Travelcard, but note NOT a day
Travelcard), and the other is a Day ticket
(Boundary extension ticket), Condition 19c is
met and they can be used together on a nonstop
Kings Cross <> Stevenage train.
This also applies to other FCC stations north of
Stevenage, for example towards Cambridge and
Huntingdon, where the combination of tickets can be
used on EC trains for the portion KGX<>Stevenage.

That extract doesn't specifically apply to ALRs, but it does make it clear that the Company is aware that some staff have been disallowing some permissable combinations in error.