Gemini Trains - Another New International Open Access Application

[Doomotron]

As if having both Virgin Trains and Evolyn battling to start a new service through the Channel Tunnel, we have another one which will likely never start.

Gemini announces cross-Channel passenger train ambitions

EUROPE: Gemini Trains becomes the latest company to set out plans to take on Eurostar on the cross-Channel route linking London with Paris and Brussels. EUROPE: The latest company to announce ambitions to launch cross-Channel passenger services to compete against Eurostar is Gemini Trains. It...

www.railwaygazette.com

The latest company to announce ambitions to launch cross-Channel passenger services to compete against Eurostar is Gemini Trains. It aims to use ‘brand new cutting-edge trains’ and a ‘fresh approach’ to ticketing to offer ‘competitive fares and high-quality, frequent’ services from London and Ebbsfleet to Paris and Brussels, ’with further exciting destinations currently being developed’.

Gemini Trains is the trading name of Gemini TOC Ltd. It is chaired by politician Lord Tony Berkeley, and the CEO is Adrian Quine, one of the founders of former open access project promoter Alliance Rail Holdings and a director of Rail Charter Services. This ran ‘Staycation Express’ tourist services on the Settle – Carlisle line. Chief Financial Officer Tom Fielden was previously CFO of Great North Eastern Railway, and Operations Director Richard Stuart was Director of International Development for Go-Ahead Group.

Gemini has been developing its plans over the last two years, engaging with infrastructure managers, governments, regulators, station operators and train companies including Eurostar. It has applied to the Office of Rail & Road for access to the Temple Mills depot in London where Eurostar’s trains are maintained, and it is also in discussion regarding other train maintenance facilities.


‘Our team has real strength, depth, vision and dynamism and is superbly placed to offer customers choice on what is currently a monopoly route’, said Lord Berkeley on March 24.

Quine said ‘the high speed line connecting London and the continent through the Channel Tunnel is one of the great rail routes. With a whole new generation now choosing trains over planes, there is a great opportunity to bring real entrepreneurial flair and dynamism with competitive fares to Europe’s premier route.’

Commenting on Gemini’s announcement, the AllRail alliance of new entrants the passenger market said it ‘welcomes all newcomers — they will bring more choice and more trains to a market that is chronically under served.’

It's backed by a Labour peer and its CEO is formerly of Alliance Rail (heaven forbid). It says it has been working on the plan for over two years, but they don't have a website and don't have any concrete plans of funding or running the operation as of yet.

TLDR: Never going to happen.

 

[Russel]

How many of these open access operators that have been set up over the last few years will ever actually run a train service?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

They do have a website: https://geminitrains.com/

 

[800001]

As if having both Virgin Trains and Evolyn battling to start a new service through the Channel Tunnel, we have another one which will likely never start.

Gemini announces cross-Channel passenger train ambitions

EUROPE: Gemini Trains becomes the latest company to set out plans to take on Eurostar on the cross-Channel route linking London with Paris and Brussels. EUROPE: The latest company to announce ambitions to launch cross-Channel passenger services to compete against Eurostar is Gemini Trains. It...

www.railwaygazette.com

It's backed by a Labour peer and its CEO is formerly of Alliance Rail (heaven forbid). It says it has been working on the plan for over two years, but they don't have a website and don't have any concrete plans of funding or running the operation as of yet.

TLDR: Never going to happen.

Might put pressure on Eurostar to run more services!
The capacity is there to be used.
Competition would be great!

 

[Doomotron]

They do have a website: https://geminitrains.com/

Good detective work - I couldn't find it and ChatGPT couldn't either.

 

[skyhigh]

Good detective work - I couldn't find it and ChatGPT couldn't either.

It's the second top result on a Google search for "Gemini trains"!

 

[Doomotron]

It's the second top result on a Google search for "Gemini trains"!

I don't use Google, so I wouldn't know. Both Bing and DuckDuckGo can't find it, and as I said before ChatGPT couldn't either. It's unusual, because usually ChatGPT is quite good at finding obscure websites.

 

[nwales58]

It's unusual, because usually ChatGPT is quite good at finding obscure websites.

AFAIUI the gpt-4 family only know internet knowledge up to some point in 2023.

ChatGPT then does the sameBing search as you would.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2025 ==

How many of these open access operators that have been set up over the last few years will ever actually run a train service?

See long running thread in International forum

 

[Snow1964]

Seems that Uber is proposing to co-brand with Gemini, in much same way as Uber boats in London for its 10 trains it is proposing to get.

Transport app Uber will "co-brand" trains running through Kent and the Channel Tunnel, it has announced.
The company said it had formed a partnership with Gemini Trains, which is developing plans to launch international rail services from London St Pancras which would stop in Ebbsfleet.
Trains stopping in Ebbsfleet would see a return of international train travel to Kent for the first time since the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic.
The deal, similar to that between Uber and the London Thames Clipper boats, would see tickets offered through the app but operations remaining the responsibility of Gemini.
Andrew Brem, Uber's UK general manager, said: "We've seen amazing momentum since we began launching new modes of transport in the UK, and this collaboration with Gemini Trains is our latest step in how we're helping people get where they want to go."
Gemini is planning to buy 10 new trains for its services, one of several planned competitors to Eurostar.
The company announced in March that it had been developing its plans for two years and had submitted an application to regulator the Office of Rail and Road for access to Eurostar's Temple Mills maintenance depot in north-east London.

Uber agrees to 'co-brand' Channel Tunnel trains through Ebbsfleet

The transport app will sell tickets for a Eurostar competitor which plans to also stop in Kent.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[ShadowKnight]

Seems that they want to operate from Stratford international now rather than st pancras

 

[TheWierdOne]

Seems that they want to operate from Stratford international now rather than st pancras

Are they planning to deadhead in and out of St Pancras or pay for the track work to allow reversals at Stratford International?

 

[Royston Vasey]

The CEO describes Stratford as "the jewel in the crown"

Surely words never before spoken about Stratford!

 

[Doomotron]

Are they planning to deadhead in and out of St Pancras or pay for the track work to allow reversals at Stratford International?

It's completely unworkable if it's true.

 

[Brubulus]

Their CEO was on Green Signals a few weeks ago and said they wanted to operate from St Pancras but also stop at Ebbsfleet as a parkway for non London drivers who can park their cars there. Didn't hear anything about Stratford.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Given there will (probably) only be space for one more operator I suspect they all will be trying to get a unique selling point to put to ORR!

 

[Mag_seven]

So they expect Stratford to be kitted out with Passport Control and Security and all the staff that go with it?

 

[TheWierdOne]

It's completely unworkable if it's true.

Not unworkable but certainly operationally complex.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Their CEO was on Green Signals a few weeks ago and said they wanted to operate from St Pancras but also stop at Ebbsfleet as a parkway for non London drivers who can park their cars there. Didn't hear anything about Stratford.

Sorry, I neglected to provide a source, it was from Simon Calder's article for the Independent today!

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...tunnel-st-pancras-europe-trains-b2755262.html

 

[jon0844]

Just run the trains from Ebbsfleet or Ashford? It's not a problem to get to either from St Pancras, and if you price your fares accordingly then you will get people making the journey on HS1 (perhaps include that as part of the fare). It will have people in Kent more likely to use those trains in preference to those starting at St Pancras, and you'll have (on paper) shorter journey times.

I can't see anyone paying to fit out Stratford International, and I really don't think not serving central London is as big a deal as some might think. Low cost airlines have a long history of stopping short of the 'main' airport - and Southeastern trains are perfectly good for connections.

 

[Brubulus]

Sorry, I neglected to provide a source, it was from Simon Calder's article for the Independent today!

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...tunnel-st-pancras-europe-trains-b2755262.html

Complete about turn on that-not particularly credible to now want to operate from Stratford. He was talking even about the planned capacity upgrades at St Pancras suggesting they were in negotiations to run from there.

 

[Doomotron]

Just run the trains from Ebbsfleet or Ashford?

The convenience of people in Kent wouldn't really matter, because it would make the service less convenient for literally everyone else in the country. Not many people would be willing to travel all the way to Ebbsfleet or Ashford (at their own expense) to go on an operator that wouldn't be much different from Eurostar or any of the other open access start-ups. They could just go to St Pancras, which is easier for the overwhelming majority of people. It's part of the reason I generally disagree with those campaigning to reopen the two stations, even though I live in Kent.

 

[jon0844]

It wouldn't put me off if the fares were cheap enough. Use SouthEastern to either station and check in there. I've never been to either station for Eurostar, but assume there's more room?

Of course St Pancras would be preferable, but there's a lot of work to be done to make the departure hall bigger and if all the available paths get used then even the planned works might not be enough?

There's also the ability for people to drive to Ebbsfleet to park and ride, which can't be an insignificant number of people from the south east.

 

[Trainlog]

To be honest, Ebbsfleet is probably the most surplus to requirement station on HS1 for international services. At least if Stratford International was incorporated, it would give the Greater Anglia region and the Elizabeth line a link (albeit from the other side of Stratford), and all that would be needed to do is properly highlight a clear footpath between the two Stratford stations or emphasise the DLR link more.

Ashford is the better station to return international services to as it connects the vast majority of Kent's domestic lines, and the Marshlink. Apart from lines East of Ashford, most people will be travelling to this station (coastbound) away from the most popular direction (London bound), these services are pretty quiet apart from the evening rushour so it can cope with suitcases, etc. For Kent standards, Ashford's roads are pretty decent so it can cope.

Ebbsfleet is only accessible via HS1 and that is already pretty crowded London bound, adding in luggage that isn't a good idea. You would also be cutting off the vast majority of South West Kent by bringing back only Ebbsfleet for international services and not Ashford.

 

[Doomotron]

It wouldn't put me off if the fares were cheap enough. Use SouthEastern to either station and check in there.

The fares would have to be quite cheaper to make it worth it. Considering the cost of running a service like Gemini/Eurostar/Virgin Trains/Uber/RHDR/Evolyn, I'm not sure how much scope there is to cut down on costs. Plus there'd be the price of getting Ebbsfleet and Ashford back up and running. Of course, that price will likely be even larger for Stratford.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if getting any of those stations operational (I can't see Stratford International being viable at all) would result in Eurostar suddenly deciding to use those stations again to undermine the competition?

 

[The Ham]

Of course St Pancras would be preferable, but there's a lot of work to be done to make the departure hall bigger and if all the available paths get used then even the planned works might not be enough?

Whilst it's true that there's a need for investment at the other stations, it's often overlooked that St Pancras also needs investment, so it's not as straightforward as sending a few now trains there.

That's not too say that it's not the best thing to do, but it may well be that above a certain amount of services it may not be all that practical to do so.

As such, if you could serve some of the other places it could reduce the need to squeeze quite so many people in at St Pancras.

For example if you could run services, from St Pancras calling at one or more station, you could reduce the number of people who you need to deal with at St Pancras and not have to deal with a while train load at the other stations.

You could therefore (say) run 3tph each calling at a non St Pancras station and therefore only have to deal with 2tph worth of passengers at St Pancras, bit only have to deal with about 1/3 of a train load of passengers at each of the other stations (yes I know 3tph may not happen, but it just made the numbers in the explanation easier).

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if there's scope for even Eurostar to run some trains that start at Ebbsfleet or Ashford? Obviously a much lower service frequency, but if the numbers were right then they'd be full trains - and prevent the need for trains from St Pancras to stop with the delays as people find their coach, seat and have to store luggage. It's quite disruptive and I assume most trains from St Pancras are well loaded anyway.

Once another operator starts I do believe we'll see Eurostar suddenly stepping up (which I suppose is the idea).

 

[Zomboid]

Ebbsfleet is only accessible via HS1 and that is already pretty crowded London bound, adding in luggage that isn't a good idea. You would also be cutting off the vast majority of South West Kent by bringing back only Ebbsfleet for international services and not Ashford

Ebbsfleet is really well located for the A2 (M2), and therefore the M25 and a lot of South East England. It's not intended to be accessed by rail (though actually the SE trains do provide a good link to North Kent).

Ashford has a different catchment and is easier to get to by rail from most of Kent, but not anywhere else. Arguably the M20 gives it nearly equivalent accessibility from the southern side of the M25 as Ebbsfleet.

Stratford was always a bit pointless as an international station. Since it doesn't actually connect with the domestic station, GA travellers might as well carry on to Liverpool St and get the circle line to St Pancras.

 

[williamn]

Now on IanVisits. Still seems highly unlikely to me.

“Although not intended to be used as a terminus, the tracks include crossovers that would permit arriving trains to stop at the station and then reverse over onto the outbound tracks when heading back to mainland Europe”

Uber could run train services between Stratford International and Paris

Uber branded trains could be calling at Stratford International soon, as Gemini Trains, one of the new rail companies aiming to break Eurostar’s monopoly through the Channel Tunnel, says it plans to use the station as its London terminus.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

 

[Peterthegreat]

As far as I am aware only the domestic platforms allow trains to reverse.