Break of Journey / Outward Leg

[Southern Beau]

I'm wanting to ask a break of journey question.

I'm travelling from Squires Gate to Stansted Mountfitchet (Via Euston), using an Off Peak Return (with Two Persons) @ £92.75 each

For the outward leg, ideally I want to start my journey on a Monday, stay overnight in London on Monday night, and then travel from London to Stansted on the Tuesday.

I know this would be possible for the return leg, but not sure about the outward?

Looking at the terms on a Northern Ticket Machine for that specific journey / ticket, it did state break of journey on outward leg was allowed, but does "break" mean overnight?

I don't think it does, but it would save me some money!

Many thanks

 

[signed]

Not on the outward leg of a Off-Peak return

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VALIDITY
One journey in each direction to be made within:​
Outward Validity:​	AS ADVERTISED (1 day)​
Return Validity:​	AS ADVERTISED (1 month)​

The outward is valid only 1 day

 

[jfollows]

Exactly, break of journey outbound is fine, but constrained by the ticket’s validity, so overnight break of journey is not possible.

 

[Watershed]

Break of journey means that you can stop off at intermediate stations (and optionally start/finish the journey there).

That is separate from the number of days for which the outward and return portion of your ticket is valid. For an Off-Peak Return, normally this would only be one day on the outward portion - however, there is an exception which allows you to break your journey overnight if it is 'not possible' to complete the journey on the first day.

It is highly ambiguous what 'not possible' should be interpreted to mean in practice. Some people think it refers to journeys that are physically impossible to make within just one day (e.g. from the far north of Scotland to Cornwall). Others think it refers to setting out from your origin at a time that means it's too late to make it to your destination that day.

To reduce the chances of having problems, I would suggest getting a journey planner to generate an itinerary with the overnight break you want, to buy the ticket for that itinerary and then to follow it as closely as possible on the second day. That way there can be no doubt that you are travelling with a valid ticket, since you are always contractually entitled to travel on the itinerary you select when buyihg your ticket.

TrainSplit allows you to specify additional interchange time at intermediate stations, so it should be possible to get it to offer an itinerary which involves an overnight break in London followed by a post-09:30 start on yoru way to Stansted (you can't travel before 09:30 due to your Two Together Railcard).

Also note there are two stations in Stansted, and Mountfitchet is the one for the village, not the Airport.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The extra fare required (for the following day's leg from London Liverpool Street to Stansted Mountfichet) is likely to be £14.90 per person with TwoTogether railcard discount, but only if travelling after 09:30. Might possibly be able to get a cheaper pair of Advance Singles.

 

[Hadders]

Admitedly this is a very old post about overnight break of journey but the forum member who posted it was authoratitive at the time and I don't believe the position has changed.

The outward portion is valid until 04:29 on day 3, although I wouldn't expect a hassle free journey if this was put to the test.

Revised NRCoC

Have you ever actually tried either of these options? From my experience ticket office staff don't know the answers to any but the most obvious questions. The last time I mentioned the routing guide at one it was clear that the staff member I was talking to had never heard of it. In my area it...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

Regardless of contractual entitlements and 14 year old posts on the forum, if you attempt to use the ticket to travel from London to Stansted Mountfitchet on the second day you should expect staff to tell you that it isn't valid. That's just the reality.

 

[Watershed]

Regardless of contractual entitlements and 14 year old posts on the forum, if you attempt to use the ticket to travel from London to Stansted Mountfitchet on the second day you should expect staff to tell you that it isn't valid. That's just the reality.

Perhaps so, but with evidence of contractual validity, at least @stew would have a clear basis for claiming back any additional fare they were forced to pay.

 

[Miloage]

I am also wondering about break of journey for an off-peak single. I have an off-peak single from Aviemore to Norwich. I called National Rail Enquiries earlier today and they said an overnight Break of journey is fine with the ticket I purchased (though they did add to double check with staff at the station). After looking at posts like this, it appears that the journey should be completed the same day (unless there is a valid reason?)

However, what about the case where return tickets (of any type) are not sold on that particular route? I had to buy two off-peak singles for the journey, it is simply not possible to do a return option. Does that make any difference?

 

[jfollows]

See https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail...pert=on&flow=0&multi=1&fare=2&rte=700&tkt=SVS

Break of journey is permitted. For long-haul train journeys, if a customer begins their journey at such a time that the timetable does not facilitate completion of the journey into their destination, customers may break their journey overnight. Customers may not resume travel on day 2 from any intermediate station before 09:30.

The overnight break of journey is designed for long trips where the trip can’t be completed in one day, and Aviemore to Norwich seems like one such.

But it does make a difference, the reason you can’t buy a return is because LNER prices this flow and has abolished them, they say in the cause of “simplification” but lots don’t agree with this reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LNER are actually quite good at explaining this right in their restriction codes, being quite clear that you can start your journey when you want and can break it overnight if you wouldn't be able to get all the way that day having started when you did (and also doesn't state that you have to get as far as you can, so you might break sooner if that for instance has better or cheaper hotel availability), but other TOCs less so. It's one thing they do get right (well, at least until they abolish their off peak walk up fares ), but I guess with a singles-only approach they have more need for it than others.

 

[Haywain]

However, what about the case where return tickets (of any type) are not sold on that particular route?

For a journey of that nature it is more likely to be accepted that it cannot be completed in the same day.

 

[gray1404]

As previously stated, it is possible to finish a journey on day 2 that was started on day 1 on the outward portion of an off peak return.

I would book on train split and get an itinerary that at least shows an overnight break of journey on the outward portion. If you are forced to buy new tickets for the final leg on day 2 I would initially protest but if they insist you buy new tickets do so. Then dispute it with customer service.

 

[redreni]

It is a rule open to a very wide range of interpretations. The use of the passive tense "cannot be completed the same day" gives rise to the question 'by whom?'. Is it an abstract test: would it be possible for a hypothetical person to buy that ticket and complete that journey on the same day? Or is it referring to you as an individual passenger: was it, in fact, possible for you to complete the journey on the same day.

Because of course, the answer may be very different in each case: it might be perfectly possible for any hypothetical person to complete a certain journey in a day, but I as a passenger may have to operate under all kinds of practical constraints that may well make it impossible for me to do so.

Ambiguities are generally to be resolved in the consumer's favour, of course.

 

[Haywain]

Ambiguities are generally to be resolved in the consumer's favour, of course.

Ultimately, but that isn't necessarily what will happen at the time.

 

[Miloage]

LNER are actually quite good at explaining this right in their restriction codes, being quite clear that you can start your journey when you want and can break it overnight if you wouldn't be able to get all the way that day having started when you did (and also doesn't state that you have to get as far as you can, so you might break sooner if that for instance has better or cheaper hotel availability), but other TOCs less so. It's one thing they do get right (well, at least until they abolish their off peak walk up fares ), but I guess with a singles-only approach they have more need for it than others.

Thanks. Do you have a link to LNER's TOCs?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2025 ==

It is a rule open to a very wide range of interpretations. The use of the passive tense "cannot be completed the same day" gives rise to the question 'by whom?'. Is it an abstract test: would it be possible for a hypothetical person to buy that ticket and complete that journey on the same day? Or is it referring to you as an individual passenger: was it, in fact, possible for you to complete the journey on the same day.

Because of course, the answer may be very different in each case: it might be perfectly possible for any hypothetical person to complete a certain journey in a day, but I as a passenger may have to operate under all kinds of practical constraints that may well make it impossible for me to do so.

Ambiguities are generally to be resolved in the consumer's favour, of course.

Yes indeed, and open to interpretation by the conductor you get on the day.

The thing is with this journey- while it is a long haul journey and takes 9 plus hours, I can technically complete it within one day. But how about if I start the journey later on the day of departure, meaning that I literally couldn't complete the journey in the same day? But then with an e-ticket, nobody is marking my ticket with when I boarded the train on that day anyway, are they? How can it be proved in any case that I could not complete the journey on the same day?

 

[pedr]

A year or two ago some family friends phoned National Rail Enquiries twice before buying a ticket and spoke to ticket-office staff on the second day to enquire about breaking the outward portion of an off-peak return overnight in circumstances where the break was two stops from the destination and in the middle of the day. Everyone told them they could do it - but then there were no on-train checks on day two and the ticket barriers were open at the destination, so I still don't know if the ticket would have opened the barriers or what revenue-focused staff would have made of it.

Single-leg pricing/ticketing would be more attractive and passenger-friendly, and the rules much clearer, if Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Singles were valid for two days, the way Anytime Singles are, leaving 'Day' tickets and Advances for journeys that have to be completed on the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. Do you have a link to LNER's TOCs?

Post 10 above contains a link to the brfares.com entry for one of their fares, which includes it in the restriction code. You should be able to see the same on nationalrail.co.uk/<code>.

 

[Miloage]

A year or two ago some family friends phoned National Rail Enquiries twice before buying a ticket and spoke to ticket-office staff on the second day to enquire about breaking the outward portion of an off-peak return overnight in circumstances where the break was two stops from the destination and in the middle of the day. Everyone told them they could do it - but then there were no on-train checks on day two and the ticket barriers were open at the destination, so I still don't know if the ticket would have opened the barriers or what revenue-focused staff would have made of it.

Single-leg pricing/ticketing would be more attractive and passenger-friendly, and the rules much clearer, if Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Singles were valid for two days, the way Anytime Singles are, leaving 'Day' tickets and Advances for journeys that have to be completed on the day.

Thanks for sharing that. Interesting that staff said that it would be fine to break the journey in the middle of the day, even though they would have been able to complete the journey on that day. Agreed- wish the rules were clearer!

Post 10 above contains a link to the brfares.com entry for one of their fares, which includes it in the restriction code. You should be able to see the same on nationalrail.co.uk/<code>.

Ok, thanks!

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes I think this is the sort of thing I wouldn't attempt with out an itinerary and even then I would expect an argument. You can force such itineraries (see here for instance) but definitely a risk of arguments and having to buy more tickets.

 

[fandroid]

I have only ever done it on the outward leg of
an Off-Peak return where the journey was unusually long, ie from South of England to the North of Scotland. Even then gateline staff at Glasgow Queen Street were reluctant to let me through late on day one as the last train to my ultimate destination (Oban) had already left. I had booked an hotel on the West Highland line at a location before it diverged from the Glasgow suburban network. I had no queries from the onboard staff the following morning.

 

[unsatisfied]

But it does make a difference, the reason you can’t buy a return is because LNER prices this flow and has abolished them, they say in the cause of “simplification” but lots don’t agree with this reason.

If the simplification included making the cost of any A -> C journey the same as A -> B plus B -> C, the longer break of journey in the return leg (which is valid for a month) would have been carried over and even expanded.
I think break of journey makes sense as you aren't using any more train services (and the times restrictions still apply on each journey). TfL via contactless disagree. What difference does it make if you use the same train service, in the same time restriction, be it on the same day or different day? One could argue it is to increase passenger movement predictability so TOCs can better optimise their service but in groups passengers as a whole become more predictable. Regarding reasons not to implement cost(A -> C) = cost(A -> B) + cost (B -> C), TOCs may want to decrease the amount of passengers getting on and off at each stop, using trains like a bus to travel short distance, but a train is meant to be useful, disembarking and boarding can only physically take a maximum amount of time, and dedicated passengers who want to do this but pay more. If they really dislike people getting on and off trains then charge £1 or something each additional time, but I think they have no strong reason to dislike the practice anyway.

 

[DeverseSam]

Regardless of contractual entitlements and 14 year old posts on the forum, if you attempt to use the ticket to travel from London to Stansted Mountfitchet on the second day you should expect staff to tell you that it isn't valid. That's just the reality.

For the purposes of forum interest, it’s a shame the journey isn’t to the airport as there is a high chance of being checked upon exit. The first ticket checker might refuse the ticket but the managers probably would know the rule

 

[Southern Beau]

Yes I think this is the sort of thing I wouldn't attempt with out an itinerary and even then I would expect an argument. You can force such itineraries (see here for instance) but definitely a risk of arguments and having to buy more tickets.

I do now have a sample itinerary which allows me to buy an off-peak return (with a journey straggling two days for the outward leg).
I couldn't get timings to overnight in London as I will likely need to do, but the Journey from the North West to London should not present any issue. Its the leg from London to SST where the itinerary below clearly does show a journey the next day.

I'll keep this thread updated



AND

Also note there are two stations in Stansted, and Mountfitchet is the one for the village, not the Airport.

Having lived in the village for 30 years, I'm well aware of the Mountfitchet and Airport stops. Conincidently I actually attended the "renaming" of Stansted Village station in 1990. It was quite a turnout!