help and opinions on charge RE: privilege card

[Genki]

D should not happen. There are no grounds for prosecution as no act of fraud has taken place. It would be easy to prove a pass has not been tampered with by looking at it under different lights and forensically testing for eraser markings. I am aware of another TOC who has used this method to prove in court a season ticket HAD been tampered with/fraudulenty produced. Remember it is up to East Midlands Trains to prove guilt, not the OP to prove innocence.

IF there is a written rule that markings have to be in pen, then I would put that down as a mistake filling the pass in and the day should have been voided and the next box filled in under the rules. If there is no written rule that the box must be filled in pen not pencil then the OP has met the criteria and if the RPI/guard wants to go over it in pen, fair enough but no rule has been broken so the pass should not be confiscated unless the RPI/guard has reason to believe the ticket HAS ALREADY been tampered with. Even if boxes are filled in pen, whats to stop a 6 being made an 8 or a 1 a 7? Will this RPI/guard confiscate any pass with a 6 on it just in case it gets tampered with.

I feel the OP should talk with their manager/own TOCs revenue department for advice. Revenue departments do talk so they may see the case quietly dropped.

we'll see what we can do about talking to her fathers manager, see if he can suggest anything. I really just hope it doesn't get taken too far, it seems like something that could get very messy if they don't accept her explanation.
The box she travelled with on that day was filled in with pen, so it's not like she could have gone back and used another box or anything. I guess we'll have to wait and see what their grievance with it is at the interview. We've already rung to confirm the appointment so hopefully they'll realise we're trying to be agreeable

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with Ferret's analysis.
I'll respond at the weekend (I'm in Court all day)

 

[DarloRich]

Turn up, put your case. I don't know if it's anything the employees union might be able to help with, as it's got the potential for serious repercussions.

I would contact your ( or the parents?) union and seek there advice and support.

(I would also listen to what Dave Newcastle has to say!)

 

[Genki]

I agree with Ferret's analysis.
I'll respond at the weekend (I'm in Court all day)

Thanks very much Dave, your take on this would be greatly appreciated

 

[RPI]

If she's been called in for an interview it will more than likely be conducted under caution, see if your union will provide a solicitor to be present.

 

[Genki]

If she's been called in for an interview it will more than likely be conducted under caution, see if your union will provide a solicitor to be present.

sorry if this is a stupid question to ask, but when you say 'conducted under caution' what does that entail? thanks

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Anything you do say will be taken down and may be used in evidence. It may harm your defence if you fail to mention now, something which you later rely on in court. Or words to that effect.

 

[1V53]

Very sad. I'm a post '96 entrant but don't even bother getting them to fill the boxes in. Most of us follow the unwritten rule that railway staff travel free. Barriers now prevent that - I have had staff chase me down the train asking me to please sell them a ticket! Sad.

 

[nedchester]

Very sad. I'm a post '96 entrant but don't even bother getting them to fill the boxes in. Most of us follow the unwritten rule that railway staff travel free. Barriers now prevent that - I have had staff chase me down the train asking me to please sell them a ticket! Sad.

So it's OK for staff to avoid payment but not the general public (just being devils advocate like)

 

[Ferret]

Nedchester - playing equal devils advocate, it tends to work as a favour for a favour - you never know when you might need assistance on board the train to deal with anything untoward. BTP get free travel, on the understanding that they assist with any issues that occur if asked to do so.

 

[AlterEgo]

Let's not get into this again - someone here is facing (potentially) some serious consequences as a result of what is probably a genuine mistake.

 

[Ferret]

Let's not get into this again - someone here is facing (potentially) some serious consequences as a result of what is probably a genuine mistake.

Hmmm, fair comment. If there has been no wrongdoing, then I can't see how EMT plan to prosecute under the byelaw they referred to.

 

[RPI]

The courts dont usually like cases involving staff travel by people who are entitled to it, they usually have the view that it's an internal issue when it comes to staff, but they may look differently at a pass belonging to a spouse or dependant, I very much doubt that EMT would like to go all the way to court on this, like I said, see if your union will advise you on this, most "normal" solicitors wont touch ticket issues.
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Very sad. I'm a post '96 entrant but don't even bother getting them to fill the boxes in. Most of us follow the unwritten rule that railway staff travel free. Barriers now prevent that - I have had staff chase me down the train asking me to please sell them a ticket! Sad.

I'm of the same opinion with staff, however, if I come across someone abusing it (i.e. altered dates or buying Priv's for their mate's) then I do take it further, I haven't seen the pass involved in this case so I don't know whether it has been altered or not.

 

[nedchester]

An interesting thought crossed my mind. If the previous boxes 'looked' as if they had been altered but the one being used at the time was not then surely there is no proof that the card was being used irregularly?

Same surely applies to those 4 in 8 type railrovers as well?

 

[1V53]

An interesting thought crossed my mind. If the previous boxes 'looked' as if they had been altered but the one being used at the time was not then surely there is no proof that the card was being used irregularly?

Same surely applies to those 4 in 8 type railrovers as well?

I'm not sure I understand your logic here. Lets take the 4 in 8. It is only to be used for four days, so not only should the guard check the date (I am amazed how many hide the ticket with the boxes under the ticket and how often they've travelled half the day without marking a date) but if he suspects alteration of an earlier date he or she would be entitled to class it as fraud as the ticket has been filled in incorrectly. It should clearly show up to four separate dates, anything else is tampering and potentially fraudulent.

 

[RJ]

So it's OK for staff to avoid payment but not the general public (just being devils advocate like)

Railway Byelaw 18.3 states that one may travel without a valid ticket if an authorised person permits it. Plus, there are clauses like 7.2d in the Penalty Fare Rules which acknowledge that an authorised person may permit travel without a valid ticket. Obviously it should never be done on a DOO-P train - if somebody tries that then gets caught by revenue inspectors, I have no sympathy whatsoever if they get done for it. Likewise for staff without the courtesy to ask the guard prior to boarding their train.

Nedchester - playing equal devils advocate, it tends to work as a favour for a favour - you never know when you might need assistance on board the train to deal with anything untoward. BTP get free travel, on the understanding that they assist with any issues that occur if asked to do so.

Indeed - I've assisted on trains numerous times when off duty. On one occasion I was on the HS1 service at Ashford, as soon as I heard the guard announce that a fare evader was causing problems and we were waiting for the police, I went straight to assist and got the passenger to disembark within 30 seconds. I'm officially entitled to travel free on those trains but I still jump in if a fellow railwayman needs help. There is a surprisingly high incidence of troublemakers on that route. When a load of chavs started causing trouble on the North Downs line, I went and defused the situation as they were not showing any respect to the rather elderly guard.

 

[nedchester]

I'm not sure I understand your logic here. Lets take the 4 in 8. It is only to be used for four days, so not only should the guard check the date (I am amazed how many hide the ticket with the boxes under the ticket and how often they've travelled half the day without marking a date) but if he suspects alteration of an earlier date he or she would be entitled to class it as fraud as the ticket has been filled in incorrectly. It should clearly show up to four separate dates, anything else is tampering and potentially fraudulent.

I understand what you are saying but if the date actually being used is a 'clean date' (no alterations) how do you prove that the previous dates (that look like they were altered) were ACTUALLY used for fraudulent travel?

There is also the fact that peoples writing can be awful, some pens don't write very well on the shiny ticket surface etc.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The courts dont usually like cases involving staff travel by people who are entitled to it, they usually have the view that it's an internal issue when it comes to staff, but they may look differently at a pass belonging to a spouse or dependant, I very much doubt that EMT would like to go all the way to court on this, like I said, see if your union will advise you on this, most "normal" solicitors wont touch ticket issues.
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I'm of the same opinion with staff, however, if I come across someone abusing it (i.e. altered dates or buying Priv's for their mate's) then I do take it further, I haven't seen the pass involved in this case so I don't know whether it has been altered or not.

I was involved in a case a few years ago now. I found someone on my train with an colour photocopy of a staff travel pass "boxes". I withdrew it and reported the person concerned. It turned out later that the pass was a colour photocopy of the pass that person was entitled to have. I caught it half way through the year, and it was nearly full with all boxes being used within the past month. When it came to court the male pleaded guilty to altering the ticket and attempting to avoid paying the correct fare, but the magistrates were so incensed that a member of staff would do this that they summoned him to appear in court so he could be spoken to. At this point he obviously got legal advice and changed his plea to not guilty. It then went to a trial and I had to attend and give evidence. The company pointed out that by copying his pass he could keep printing it and obtain more days free travel than he was entitled to and hence avoid paying the correct fare etc. His defence was weak, and to be honest, shambolic. Most of it sounded like porkies. His solicitor quite clearly didn't know about railway ticketing. He was, not suprisingly found guilty and received fines and costs totalling just under £1700. Last thing I heard was he was involved in disciplinary action with his employer. I think in this case the magistrates took a very dim view of the matter and the fines and costs were the highest I have ever seen.

 

[Collins85]

Hi Genki

A very similar thing happened to someone I know, did you seek legal advice?

 

[Genki]

Hi Genki

A very similar thing happened to someone I know, did you seek legal advice?

We've not sought legal advice, but members on this community have given us some wonderful advice, and we've spoken to my husbands union who have also given us the same advice. The interview is tomorrow so I'll be sure to update on here on how it went
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was involved in a case a few years ago now. I found someone on my train with an colour photocopy of a staff travel pass "boxes". I withdrew it and reported the person concerned. It turned out later that the pass was a colour photocopy of the pass that person was entitled to have. I caught it half way through the year, and it was nearly full with all boxes being used within the past month. When it came to court the male pleaded guilty to altering the ticket and attempting to avoid paying the correct fare, but the magistrates were so incensed that a member of staff would do this that they summoned him to appear in court so he could be spoken to. At this point he obviously got legal advice and changed his plea to not guilty. It then went to a trial and I had to attend and give evidence. The company pointed out that by copying his pass he could keep printing it and obtain more days free travel than he was entitled to and hence avoid paying the correct fare etc. His defence was weak, and to be honest, shambolic. Most of it sounded like porkies. His solicitor quite clearly didn't know about railway ticketing. He was, not suprisingly found guilty and received fines and costs totalling just under £1700. Last thing I heard was he was involved in disciplinary action with his employer. I think in this case the magistrates took a very dim view of the matter and the fines and costs were the highest I have ever seen.

I think for that man to have done that he's honestly incredibly stupid and ungrateful! If you fill up boxes on your card you're still entitled to quarter fares so there's really no excuse! My husband told me he'd even heard of people actually tippexing out dates in order to go over them, it's insane that people do it! I'm not surprised the person you mentioned was disciplined so harshly, I'm sure telling such blatant and flimsy lies didn't exactly encourage the court to go easy on him!
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Hi everyone, just an update on what happened at today's interview. Unfortunately they didn't accept my daughters explanation and insisted guards absolutely wouldn't go over dates in pen for customers, they gave her a choice between taking it to court or paying a fine, we wanted to get it over with so agreed to pay the fine. so they fined her for every box filled with pencil, plus a charge for them to be there, which in the end amounted to just under £500. Steep, but going to court would have involved lots more stress and anxiety and money. However, they didn't take her priv off her, apparently it's not down to them it's down to someone else, they've filed the report and said they feel she has been appropriately punished and that she's learnt her lesson, so hopefully she may keep her card. The interviewers were actually very pleasant and understanding, it was their managers decision in the end. Just thought I'd let you know the outcome after so many of you gave us such valuable information and help, so thankyou

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately they didn't accept my daughters explanation and insisted guards absolutely wouldn't go over dates in pen for customers,

Yes, that's a problem. Your word against the guard. And the guard is likely to win almost every time.

they gave her a choice between taking it to court or paying a fine, we wanted to get it over with so agreed to pay the fine. so they fined her for every box filled with pencil, plus a charge for them to be there, which in the end amounted to just under £500. Steep, but going to court would have involved lots more stress and anxiety and money. However, they didn't take her priv off her, apparently it's not down to them it's down to someone else, they've filed the report and said they feel she has been appropriately punished and that she's learnt her lesson, so hopefully she may keep her card. The interviewers were actually very pleasant and understanding, it was their managers decision in the end. Just thought I'd let you know the outcome after so many of you gave us such valuable information and help, so thankyou

This is blackmail in my opinion.

I also thought that only a court could issue a fine?

Also is the fine (or penalty charge as it might actually be?) an admission of guilt? If so I would fear that it may be argued that the PRIV should be removed.

I'd rather have seen it go to court. But sadly the court would quite possibly have simply believed the TOCs story. I don't really have a lot of faith in courts upholding the principles of guilty until proven innocent. I have read too many cases that make me doubt that we really have true justice in this country.

Anyway, please do let us know what happens next. If nothing else, it will help us advise others in future. But I hope she gets to keep the PRIV.

I know how awful EMT can be (as a company) and how appealingly bad some of their staff (or, ex-staff as some are now) can be. Some of their staff harass customers and falsely imprison people. But I can't talk about certain cases for confidentiality reasons. But the idea that EMT staff should simply believed without question is, sadly, not credible. And the idea that EMT act honourably at all times is also highly dubious.

 

[barrykas]

Yes, that's a problem. Your word against the guard. And the guard is likely to win almost every time.

This is blackmail in my opinion.

I also thought that only a court could issue a fine?

Also is the fine (or penalty charge as it might actually be?) an admission of guilt? If so I would fear that it may be argued that the PRIV should be removed.

I suspect that what has actually been offered is an out of court settlement, which is what I expect most other TOCs would offer in such circumstances.

I'd rather have seen it go to court. But sadly the court would quite possibly have simply believed the TOCs story. I don't really have a lot of faith in courts upholding the principles of guilty until proven innocent. I have read too many cases that make me doubt that we really have true justice in this country.

The other issues with going to court is that the resultant fine (if the TOC win) is likely to be higher than the settlement figure, potentially up to £1000, and the OPs daughter would find herself with a criminal record.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Thanks for the news, Genki. I'm sorry that the outcome wasn't entirely what you'd wished for. Your daughter's explanation was a little unusual, but if true as I'm sure it was, then I had hoped it was heard with an open mind.

However, in view of the severity of the potential offence if prosecuted through the Courts, and the magnitude of the potential fine + costs coupled with the likely criminal record, I fully agree with the other commentators that the settlement which you were offered and accepted is a far, far better outcome than an unsuccessful Prosecution in Court. There's just too much at stake in arguing something like this in a Court - our sense of 'right' and 'wrong' comes with a high price if we choose to test it in Law!

I realise that you'll be feeling dissapointed, but I hope you'll be relieved that the matter is over and that life can return to normal without the anxiety - and that your daughter can continue to enjoy the privileges which, perversely, so many other rail staff do not.

 

[Flamingo]

I have never gone over a date written in pencil with a pen on a priv boxes card, and I have never heard any other guard talking about doing so.

Not saying the OP was wrong, just mentioning it.

I didn't like to say so before the case.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have never gone over a date written in pencil with a pen on a priv boxes card, and I have never heard any other guard talking about doing so.

Not saying the OP was wrong, just mentioning it.

I didn't like to say so before the case.

Neither have I. When I have encountered boxes filled in by pencil I have either - a) if I suspect fraudulent activity, reported them. b) If I do not suspect fraudulent activity, crossed the box out in pen for the avoidance of doubt later.

 

[Genki]

exactly, we'd rather not take it to court, that would involve far too much anxiety and as you say davenewcastle, a potentially much higher price to pay at the end.

Network Rail have sent us a letter with a list of the boxes that EMT weren't happy about, asking for an explanation. Is this normal for them to do after a report has been filed? We thought the interview would be the last of it after paying the fine and everything.

 

[fulshaw]

You said Network Rail had sent a letter. I'm confused as to why they would send you a letter or what it has to do with them? Can you pls clarify.

 

[bb21]

You said Network Rail had sent a letter. I'm confused as to why they would send you a letter or what it has to do with them? Can you pls clarify.

I think they have Priv travel due to her husband working for Network Rail.

 

[Yew]

How exactly can EMT insist on what guards of other train companies will do? and even then, guards have discresion, and one guard might leave it, and one might go over in pen (putting a cross could cause confusion in later legs of the journey)

I have a friend who had some kind of travelcard (i think she was in care for a while or something) and im pretty sure the guard went over it in pen....

Surely on closer examination it would be obvious that the two dates in the box (one in pen, one in pencil) where the same? and then I think any cases of altering the box, to falsely obtain discount would be pretty well sunken


I have no legal experience so dont take any of this to be correct, howeven though the case is kind of over, depending on how the interview goes, NR might decide to try and claim back the settlement, or it could proove useful ammunition if NR take the EMT side of things

 

[Genki]

I think they have Priv travel due to her husband working for Network Rail.

that's correct, however I'm unsure as to why they've sent us a letter asking us for an explanation... We've gone through the interview process and paid a fine etc so I'm unsure about why we've recieve a letter from Network Rail asking for an explanation when they must have the report that EMT filed? unless it's a routine? it's a bit confusing.