What counts as a "journey" when using split tickets?

[Dirty_Mac]

About a year ago, I was returning from a day trip to Hadrian's Wall when my connecting service at Carlisle got delayed. I later claimed both my tickets (Haltwistle to Carlisle + Carlisle to Lancaster) via Avanti's delay repay, but was somewhat skeptical as my connection out of Carlisle was not the first train, but rather the second, which was scheduled to depart 47 minutes after I arrive at Carlisle, as it was cheaper. Nevertheless, my claim was approved without a problem.

This got me thinking. What counts as a single journey under delay repay? With a hypothetical journey from A to C via B, splitting tickets at B, do I have to get the first train from B (not the case as per my example), or is there some time limit for the connection?
Using this forum's website, I found several itineraries with both advance splits (i.e., advance tickets on both legs) and through advance singles. I can get the connection time up to 6 hours (presumably more but it seemed enough):

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Logically, if I can buy an advance single with an itinerary that has me wait at Carlisle for 6 hours (where I presumably spend time seeing the castle and whatnot), any delay to the second leg would mean I get compensated for the ticket, and this would be the exact same if I bought split advance singles with a 6 hour gap separating them, right?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you respect minimum connection times you can consider it one journey. Inserting breaks means you're less likely to be wanting Delay Repay because it is paid based on arrival at your final destination. Certainly if purchased against an itinerary it is one journey. Only time I've had trouble getting DR paid was where I was using two tickets and starting short on the second (on which break of journey was permitted - were it not, nothing would be due), but it was paid in the end.

On many occasions a delay or cancellation of MKC-Bletchley at the end of a long journey has resulted in a substantial payout.

 

[Watershed]

About a year ago, I was returning from a day trip to Hadrian's Wall when my connecting service at Carlisle got delayed. I later claimed both my tickets (Haltwistle to Carlisle + Carlisle to Lancaster) via Avanti's delay repay, but was somewhat skeptical as my connection out of Carlisle was not the first train, but rather the second, which was scheduled to depart 47 minutes after I arrive at Carlisle, as it was cheaper. Nevertheless, my claim was approved without a problem.

This got me thinking. What counts as a single journey under delay repay? With a hypothetical journey from A to C via B, splitting tickets at B, do I have to get the first train from B (not the case as per my example), or is there some time limit for the connection?
Using this forum's website, I found several itineraries with both advance splits (i.e., advance tickets on both legs) and through advance singles. I can get the connection time up to 6 hours (presumably more but it seemed enough):

Results | RailUK Tickets

TrainSplit is a free service that makes it easy to find the cheapest train tickets for your journey.

tickets-beta.railforums.co.uk

Results | RailUK Tickets

TrainSplit is a free service that makes it easy to find the cheapest train tickets for your journey.

tickets-beta.railforums.co.uk

Logically, if I can buy an advance single with an itinerary that has me wait at Carlisle for 6 hours (where I presumably spend time seeing the castle and whatnot), any delay to the second leg would mean I get compensated for the ticket, and this would be the exact same if I bought split advance singles with a 6 hour gap separating them, right?

There is nothing in the NRCoT that defines the term 'journey' anymore, so it is somewhat of an ambiguous term. Certainly I would argue that anything you can book as one itinerary counts as one journey, but if it's a DIY split with a completely unnecessarily long connection (perhaps overnight) then I could understand the argument that it was two separate journeys.

 

[Royston Vasey]

In general, long connections and split tickets tend to reduce the DR liability to the TOC (less chance of missing a connection, lower claim value) although in your case it worked the other way for the TOC.

An itinerary like yours may fail an automated check (Artificial Unintelligence) but succeed either on referral to a human being, or failing that, on appeal. I've never not had a claim approved (eventually) but I've had to appeal plenty, including presenting the itinerary if needed, particularly when the itinerary I travelled on and had tickets for, was not an obvious route or I added connection time to have a meal. Sometimes I did not follow the itinerary on flexible portions and my claim was accepted on trust, but if you do keep to your itinerary it always helps.

If you have advances for specific trains with a not excessive connection it can hardly be problematic, and claims on advances for definitively delayed trains are usually approved quickly. People can need extra time at stations for lots of reasons without breaking their journey. From experience, a human will review it at some point and approve it.

In your case also, if you had an advance for the specific train to your final destination that was delayed, they therefore have undoubted liability and there's probably little difference in their liability whether you took the 16:00 or 16:30 to connect with the 16:45.

Engineering a six hour connection on an advance itinerary is not how they were intended to work, but if the last train on the itinerary is delayed, at least some compensation is unquestionably due. The liability to the railway (in this case Northern) of "missed connection" delay repay becomes practically zero, but you might have a fight on your hands to add the first leg to your claim.

None of this is very well defined really, and depending on the complexity, the handler may not understand what you've done, may misinterpret/make up rules as they go along, may not believe you or may not approve if they think you're being cheeky. It's not cut and dried; if the individual reviewing the case thinks you were taking the mickey they might just reject it, and the comeback you have is rather limited to explaining, arguing and appealing to their better nature; there's no real legal recourse. What is deemed "not excessive" comes down to someone behind a screen making a decision. A longhand customer service email citing the NRCoT sometimes helps.

 

[yorkie]

About a year ago, I was returning from a day trip to Hadrian's Wall when my connecting service at Carlisle got delayed. I later claimed both my tickets (Haltwistle to Carlisle + Carlisle to Lancaster) via Avanti's delay repay, but was somewhat skeptical as my connection out of Carlisle was not the first train, but rather the second, which was scheduled to depart 47 minutes after I arrive at Carlisle, as it was cheaper. Nevertheless, my claim was approved without a problem.

Without the full details of your itinerary, it is difficult to comment.

Generally speaking, you'd be expected to take reasonable actions to mitigate against a delay. The best thing to do is post here and seek help at the time, by creating a thread, stating what ticket(s) you hold, what journey(s) you are making, what delay(s) you are experiencing and any other queries.

This got me thinking. What counts as a single journey under delay repay? With a hypothetical journey from A to C via B, splitting tickets at B, do I have to get the first train from B (not the case as per my example), or is there some time limit for the connection?
Using this forum's website, I found several itineraries with both advance splits (i.e., advance tickets on both legs) and through advance singles. I can get the connection time up to 6 hours (presumably more but it seemed enough):

Results | RailUK Tickets

TrainSplit is a free service that makes it easy to find the cheapest train tickets for your journey.

tickets-beta.railforums.co.uk

Results | RailUK Tickets

TrainSplit is a free service that makes it easy to find the cheapest train tickets for your journey.

tickets-beta.railforums.co.uk

Logically, if I can buy an advance single with an itinerary that has me wait at Carlisle for 6 hours (where I presumably spend time seeing the castle and whatnot), any delay to the second leg would mean I get compensated for the ticket, and this would be the exact same if I bought split advance singles with a 6 hour gap separating them, right?

By specifying a 6-hour gap, it is reasonable to argue that you are making separate journeys, or are "breaking your journey" which would have the effect of limiting the railway's liability to the specific part of the ticket where the delay occurred.

If you act unreasonably then you are not only likely to have your claim denied, but you risk being placed on some sort of blacklist/watchlist, and also you risk getting the rules changed, or the website functionality changed.

 

[MrJeeves]

I think it is different creating a split with a long break in the middle, but if you had, for example a ticket from A to C, with your itinerary showing a change at B which just happens to have a 6 hour break it's a completely different matter.

I would not expect delay repay on the whole value of the tickets with a split from A to B and B to C with that 6 hour gap, but if it was one ticket which included that long gap, I see no issue.

 

[Dirty_Mac]

Without the full details of your itinerary, it is difficult to comment.

It's 2N27 Haltwhistle (18:28) – Carlisle (19:02) connecting onto 1M19 Carlisle (19:45) – Lancaster (20:38). There's an earlier TPE train that leaves at 19:34 but it's more expensive so I booked the Avanti train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2025 ==

I think it is different creating a split with a long break in the middle, but if you had, for example a ticket from A to C, with your itinerary showing a change at B which just happens to have a 6 hour break it's a completely different matter.

I would not expect delay repay on the whole value of the tickets with a split from A to B and B to C with that 6 hour gap, but if it was one ticket which included that long gap, I see no issue.

I suppose that's fair. What would you say is a reasonable gap for it to still count as one journey? 1 hour?

 

[Watershed]

It's 2N27 Haltwhistle (18:28) – Carlisle (19:02) connecting onto 1M19 Carlisle (19:45) – Lancaster (20:38). There's an earlier TPE train that leaves at 19:34 but it's more expensive so I booked the Avanti train.

I don't think there could be any argument that this wasn't a single journey.

I suppose that's fair. What would you say is a reasonable gap for it to still count as one journey? 1 hour?

I think it is highly context dependent. Let's say you're connecting onto the Far North line at Inverness; missing the first available connection might mean waiting another 4 hours for the next train. I think that would still count as one journey but it would be more ambiguous than the example you gave.

At the end of the day it is context dependent; for some long journeys, an overnight connection may be unavoidable (especially if you want to use an Off-Peak ticket).

I think it's safe to say that if you have one ticket, or a combination of tickets bought from a retailer and are following the itinerary you chose (even if that has a long wait), that would count as one journey.

 

[Royston Vasey]

It's 2N27 Haltwhistle (18:28) – Carlisle (19:02) connecting onto 1M19 Carlisle (19:45) – Lancaster (20:38). There's an earlier TPE train that leaves at 19:34 but it's more expensive so I booked the Avanti train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2025 ==


I suppose that's fair. What would you say is a reasonable gap for it to still count as one journey? 1 hour?

You took the first available train with your chosen operator, so there's no possible issue here.

When I do engineer a split for a break of journey like this to do something off the train, for example to see Carlisle Castle or visit my favourite fried chicken place in Shrewsbury, or to watch trains in Crewe for two hours, I'd say that's your self test. I'd only claim for the latter leg. Everyone will have a different view on this though, and appetite for confrontation and your conscience.

After all, nobody is forcing you to claim delay repay at all, let alone for both legs.

 

[yorkie]

It's 2N27 Haltwhistle (18:28) – Carlisle (19:02) connecting onto 1M19 Carlisle (19:45) – Lancaster (20:38). There's an earlier TPE train that leaves at 19:34 but it's more expensive so I booked the Avanti train.

That's fine. If you become aware that the Avanti is delayed before the TPE has departed, the best thing to do is ask if there is ticket acceptance to take the TPE train. If there isn't, then simply wait for the Avanti train, and claim accordingly.

I suppose that's fair. What would you say is a reasonable gap for it to still count as one journey? 1 hour?

It's variable and subjective. 1 hour would be excessive for Clapham Junction to East Croydon, Victoria, Waterloo etc, but I would allow more if I was getting the Sleeper from Euston to Fort William and arriving from Penzance.