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Gathurst has an expensive toilet

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Gathursty

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Northern have installed an accessible toilet at Gathurst station costing £102,000 according to this news report.

Link - https://www.wigantoday.net/communit...brWhEMgDmIlt90Y-TF_aem_rcTwAR6hcXryrdPjekg1bA

A rail firm has been panned for splashing out £100,000 on a Wigan station's new WC.

Gathurst station, which was only recently ranked the second worst in the UK for service reliability, opened its new facility last week prompting a backlash over misspending and bad prioritization.

The new lavatory at the train halt -which has a cancellation rate of 16.2 per cent- cost an approximate £102k which is more expensive than multiple houses listed on Zoopla including a three bedroom semi-detached house.

Passenger Damyn Walkden said: “It is a hell of a lot of money to be spending on a toilet at a station that struggles so much for cancellations.”

He uses the station occasionally to go out with his partner but the cancellation rate “must be shocking if you rely on the station to go to work”.

The Ormskirk, Preston and Southport Travellers' Association (OPSTA) campaign for a better quality train service.

When responding to the toilet cost a spokesperson said: “the cost is shocking but not surprising.

“Personally I would expect for that money you would also get a kitchen, living space, bedroom and bathroom which points to the value for money question that needs to be asked.”

The spokesperson added: “Northern Train's performance has improved this year but there are still too many cancellations and performance issues that are very disruptive, creating anxiety and problems for passengers.”

The campaigners said Gathurst station suffers a high quantity of cancellations because it continues to operate the “very unreliable” Class 769 trains meaning many journeys don’t reach their destination.

These trains often only operate two carriages, causing overcrowding and resulting in OPSTA receiving "too many reports of passengers left at stations”.

The frequency of cancellations has caused rail users to seek other methods of transport or go to other stations that deliver a more reliable service according to OPSTA.

Christopher Hough, 25 uses Gathurst station once every few weeks and said: “I absolutely think the management of this station is quite poor and it can be managed better.

“I’m not surprised it’s the second worst in the UK for cancellations.

“I often take a bus or have to catch a lift to another Wigan station because they are more reliable and provide options for back-up routes if needed.”

Mr Hough currently uses the station to go to football games or gigs in Manchester but in the past used it to get to university.

Cancellations have affected Mr Hough, requiring him to pay for Ubers to get to his destination leaving him frustrated at the little explanation offered when a train is cancelled.

When discussing the toilet cost, he said: “I think there are larger issues with Gathurst station especially in terms of disability access.

“The only way to the platform is a 50m long hill, which is not steep to walk up for me but would definitely be difficult and tiring for someone with a disability.”

Wigan MP Lisa Nandy said: “The fact that only 33 stations out of 18,000 across the country had no cancellations in the first month of the year is further proof of the dire situation our railway network has been left in after years of mismanagement and a lack of investment.

“That's why this Labour Government is taking the railways back into public ownership as contracts expire, saving £100m in management fees currently paid to private operators and giving passengers the service they deserve.”

Northern Rail was asked for a comment but had not responded at the time of going to press.


That price can buy you if not a house but a large chunk of a house in Wigan.

I would like to believe the £102,000 is part of a bundle of other works that have been done at Gathurst and that the article is misinformed.

Can a toilet really cost £102,000?
 
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Halwynd

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I was wondering when it would open for use given it's been built for many months.

I accept it isn't cheap, but I welcome the installation of these facilities by Northern.
 

takno

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Northern have installed an accessible toilet at Gathurst station costing £102,000 according to this news report.

Link - https://www.wigantoday.net/communit...brWhEMgDmIlt90Y-TF_aem_rcTwAR6hcXryrdPjekg1bA

That price can buy you if not a house but a large chunk of a house in Wigan.

I would like to believe the £102,000 is part of a bundle of other works that have been done at Gathurst and that the article is misinformed.

Can a toilet really cost £102,000?
Obvious questions would be where the water, electric and drainage have had to be installed from, and whether the price tag includes maintenance for any period of time. The 102k will also likely include VAT, so it's nearer 85k when compared to a house. I don't think it's a particularly wild price to be honest.
 

Mojo

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I’m not surprised given the cost in the rail industry and more generally across public infrastructure projects that seems to be going on right now.

In a previous role I undertook we were quoted by Network Rail a six figure sum for installation of a waiting shelter equipped with lighting and CCTV. This being on a single track station at the end of a branch line. There was much embarrassment when someone at the meeting was able to produce a screengrab from Rightmove showing a house for sale immediately next to the station which cost several thousands less than NR were quoting. Ironically the house was built on ex railway land which had been disposed of when the railway was downsized some years prior.
 

Halwynd

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More information on these new toilets here:


The new toilet pod represents the first of 83 fully accessible toilets set to be installed at rail stations across Greater Manchester in the next 3 years.

The estate of fully accessible toilet and baby changing facilities for all are thought to be world leading and are packed full of technology and features that will improve accessible refuge and ensure rail travel across Greater Manchester is for everyone.

The multi-million-pound investment will support the refurbishments of some existing toilets, the introduction of new facilities within station buildings or the installation of stand-alone toilet pods.

The toilets have been designed by Seed Architects and accessibility and disability (including hidden) groups have offered their expertise and guidance to ensure all needs are being met.

They are more than just toilets and will all have controlled access via either a radar key, a train ticket QR code or video access linked directly to Northern’s 24hr customer contact centre....
 

pokemonsuper9

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Northern have installed an accessible toilet at Gathurst station costing £102,000 according to this news report.
I breifly read that as costing £102,000 to use, expecting a software error or something to have caused someone to be billed way too much.

£102,000 does indeed feel like quite a lot to just replace a parking space with a single toilet, but compared to building a house there's a lot less economies of scale.
 

SynthD

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The 102k will also likely include VAT, so it's nearer 85k when compared to a house.
Domestically, a bathroom fitted for disability needs is VAT exempt. Is this true commercially?

A parking space won’t have fresh water, drainage or electricity, so building on top of that tarmac isn’t simple. Some of the later toilets in this project may be easier and cheaper.
 

Gathursty

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'World leading' and 'X Architects' gives me red flags.

It doesn't look like it is anything more than a small one room building. I can't see any flair or touch that would make me think 'world-leading' like Norman Foster, Le Corbusier etc... I will have a look when it's open and see if there's something more to it.
 

yorksrob

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It's interesting that we've had a mini-industry of building toilet modules that can be retrofitted to trains in recent years. Could we not have an industry building pre-fabricated accessible toilet modules that could be craned off of a lorry and plumbed in at the station.

In small stations, these could be the sole toilet for all use. In slightly larger stations, these can be brought in to allow pre-existing non-accessible facilities to be brought back into use.
 

AlterEgo

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If you don’t have a QR coded ticket, getting access to have a pee is going to be very annoying when you have to contact a call centre to do it.
 

jupiter

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..In slightly larger stations, these can be brought in to allow pre-existing non-accessible facilities to be brought back into use.

Just to be clear and reading between the lines, are you saying a possible solution to not having accessible facilities is to close the non-accessible ones? Has this tactic been successfully deployed before?
 

yorksrob

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Just to be clear and reading between the lines, are you saying a possible solution to not having accessible facilities is to close the non-accessible ones? Has this tactic been successfully deployed before?

Where have I said that ?

There are a lot of stations with closed toilet facilities that could potentially be brought into use (but would need an accessible option).
 

The exile

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Where have I said that ?

There are a lot of stations with closed toilet facilities that could potentially be brought into use (but would need an accessible option).
Or indeed where the toilets are only available when the station is staffed.
 

dosxuk

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It's interesting that we've had a mini-industry of building toilet modules that can be retrofitted to trains in recent years. Could we not have an industry building pre-fabricated accessible toilet modules that could be craned off of a lorry and plumbed in at the station.

In small stations, these could be the sole toilet for all use. In slightly larger stations, these can be brought in to allow pre-existing non-accessible facilities to be brought back into use.
Err, that's exactly what this project is about.

The pod based toilets are also being manufactured in an environmentally friendly manner and use cutting edge Glass Reinforced Fibre (GRF) technology which takes littered disposable bottles from the sea and transforms them into strong and robust building material.

Each of the toilet pods will remove more than 2,000 plastic bottles from the ocean and the toilet pods themselves are fully recyclable when they reach their operational end of life.

Where station building facilities aren’t available, specifically designed 1.5tonne ‘lift and shift’ modules, like at Guide Bridge, will be installed and these can be disconnected and moved to new locations as needed and as and when the railway estate changes.
 

zwk500

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I breifly read that as costing £102,000 to use, expecting a software error or something to have caused someone to be billed way too much.

£102,000 does indeed feel like quite a lot to just replace a parking space with a single toilet, but compared to building a house there's a lot less economies of scale.
A house doesn't generally come with multiple alarms, distress calls and assistive technology.
Intercoms will be fitted, that both link users to human beings in times of need, but also provide an automated audio description of the toilet and the room upon entry, detailing where certain facilities are and how to use them.

Additional safety and security features have been added including a unique ‘scream’ alert which detects when someone maybe shouting out in distress and immediately connects them to emergency support. The toilets have user activated multiple distress cords and low-level panic buttons.

The intelligent toilets recognise when someone enters and activates an emergency response if after a period of time no user activity is detected, a safety feature designed to assist anyone who may have collapsed or is unconscious.
£100k is paying for quite a bit more than a shed and bog. Would be interesting to know if the price also includes 1/92nd of the design costs, including meeting all the groups.
If you don’t have a QR coded ticket, getting access to have a pee is going to be very annoying when you have to contact a call centre to do it.
RADAR keys are also mentioned to be usable, and the suggestion from the article is that the intercom will connect you directly to somebody in Northern's control room which is presumably a precaution against vandalism.
 

yorksrob

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Perhaps when they get into the production mode, they'll become cheaper.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Just to be clear and reading between the lines, are you saying a possible solution to not having accessible facilities is to close the non-accessible ones? Has this tactic been successfully deployed before?
It happens elsewhere on the railway- if a unit has a universally accessible toilet and a space-saver toilet on board, it can continue in service if the smaller toilet is out of use but not if the universal one is.
 

The exile

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It happens elsewhere on the railway- if a unit has a universally accessible toilet and a space-saver toilet on board, it can continue in service if the smaller toilet is out of use but not if the universal one is.
Surely it can continue in service anyway - just lock the space saver one OOU as well - then there’s no discrimination (which appears to be the only criterion).
 

RailWonderer

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A large part of the cost will be the installation and provision of appropriate services, which will always be a one-off.
Which is why is GBR, when it comes about, could potentially make a list of new stations needing toilets and identifies, let's say, fifty stations nationwide, it can order fifty prefab toilets and install them all at once, then it becomes cheaper with economies of scale.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Surely it can continue in service anyway - just lock the space saver one OOU as well - then there’s no discrimination (which appears to be the only criterion).
Thanks for the correction- indeed AIUI most operators do as you say. Hence you'll see notes on platform displays about "no toilets available on board this service", but never "no accessible toilet on board".
 

The exile

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Thanks for the correction- indeed AIUI most operators do as you say. Hence you'll see notes on platform displays about "no toilets available on board this service", but never "no accessible toilet on board".
I’ve seen “no disabled toilet” at least twice in the last fortnight.
 

Bungle965

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More information on these new toilets here:

Aztec code not QR code!
Presumably they have done some sort of connection between the unit and an eTVD through an API? Similar setup to the Avanti 1st class lounges now.
 

The exile

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Which is why is GBR, when it comes about, could potentially make a list of new stations needing toilets and identifies, let's say, fifty stations nationwide, it can order fifty prefab toilets and install them all at once, then it becomes cheaper with economies of scale.
Fewer economies of scale with the installation as the work needed to attach to existing service connections will always be different. OK, you’re going to get a bit of a “volume discount” but less than on the production of a standard module.
 

Russel

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It's interesting that we've had a mini-industry of building toilet modules that can be retrofitted to trains in recent years. Could we not have an industry building pre-fabricated accessible toilet modules that could be craned off of a lorry and plumbed in at the station.

In small stations, these could be the sole toilet for all use. In slightly larger stations, these can be brought in to allow pre-existing non-accessible facilities to be brought back into use.

Interesting concept, thinking more into it, it could be fitted with solar panels to provide the electricity and in the same way as trains, the waste could drop into a tank to be emptied every couple of days by a lorry which could also fill the fresh water tank...

Just a though, but it could save a few ££ by not connecting it to the national grid for electricity and plumbing...
 

Elecman

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Interesting concept, thinking more into it, it could be fitted with solar panels to provide the electricity and in the same way as trains, the waste could drop into a tank to be emptied every couple of days by a lorry which could also fill the fresh water tank...

Just a though, but it could save a few ££ by not connecting it to the national grid for electricity and plumbing...
Providing Septic Tank is an expensive exercise in its own right even before the tanking costs on top As it’s at a station there is already a ‘grid’ supply present so it’s only a new circuit on the existing distribution board
 

stuu

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Interesting concept, thinking more into it, it could be fitted with solar panels to provide the electricity and in the same way as trains, the waste could drop into a tank to be emptied every couple of days by a lorry which could also fill the fresh water tank...

Just a though, but it could save a few ££ by not connecting it to the national grid for electricity and plumbing...
That's a big operating cost for the rest of time, vs a one-off hit for putting in the services properly. Given operating costs have always been the first to be cut, it's not a great idea
 
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