Could the Sleepers be made self-funding?

[HSTEd]

As would a tiny fleet of extremely powerful and therefore specialised EMUs!

A class 350 has 2,000kW at rail.
A Class 66 has 1,850kW at rail.

A 4REP only has 20% more horsepower than the Class 350.

All EMUs are extremely powerful now.

The only limit is tractive effort, and the sleeper formation is hardly particularly heavy in trailing wait terms.

The sleepers are hardly running a very tight schedule on the WCML either way.

Lets not forget, the only case in the UK of EMUs regularly hauling unpowered stock was the 4REPs, which was only resorted to (imaginatively, it has to be said) because BR could not afford to electrify through to Weymouth. Nowhere else was it ever adopted, and the examples quoted in other countries are to the best of my knowledge very different types of operation; ie does any country anywhere use EMUs to haul its overnight passenger trains?

EMUs hauling trailers is done regularly on various Swiss railways.

 

[Falcon1200]

EMUs hauling trailers is done regularly on various Swiss railways.

How many trailers per EMU, and as part of 16 coach formations>

 

[30907]

How many trailers per EMU, and as part of 16 coach formations>

The Bernina sets are 6 panoramics behind a 3-car unit - and I've seen as many ordinary coaches behind one. But context: outside suburban services, MUs were relative rarities in mainland Europe until at least the 70s - far more common was the single power car plus multiple (non-driving) trailers, and these haven't disappeared entirely.

In principle I suppose you could have a sort of 2-REP for the sleeper seats, equivalent to a RhB Allegra - but I can't think what you would do with it between duties. It wouldn't be available for the morning peak which restricts options.

 

[Meerkat]

What couchettes are being discussed? The ones I remember the seats folded out to meet each other and you slept longitudinally, giving the same issue as fold flat seats.

 

[Tetragon213]

I wonder if you could build a fleet of bi-modes (25kV/Diesel) that are compatible with the Mk3? This way, ScotRail can make use of them to haul Mk3 coaches once the Class 43 power cars are retired. As much as I love the HST, it cannot be denied that they're getting long in the tooth.

This would allow for continued use of the Mk3 coaching stock, at least.

 

[popeter45]

This would allow for continued use of the Mk3 coaching stock, at least.

getting off topic but the mk3 coaching stock are end of life too

the EMU pulling coaching stock idea feels like a rabbit hole as cant see how that would improve the efficency of sleeper services?, what do you get from a seated EMU pulling a overnight service?

 

[NCT]

Are there any sleeper MUs in mainland Europe? Isn't it the desire not to have underfloor traction noises (even for seated accommodation) the reason sleepers have remained as loco-hauled?

 

[signed]

Are there any sleeper MUs in mainland Europe?

None

 

[Brubulus]

getting off topic but the mk3 coaching stock are end of life too

the EMU pulling coaching stock idea feels like a rabbit hole as cant see how that would improve the efficency of sleeper services?, what do you get from a seated EMU pulling a overnight service?

EMU would reduce the amount of shunting, at least in theory.

The cheapest solution to replace MK3 stock is to get rid of the Lowlander and move the stock over to the Night Riviera. Given the late evening options on the ECML and reduced journey times from December, its getting slightly ridiculous for there to be sleeper trains on a 4h journey. If someone desperately wants a sleeper, they could use the Highlander. Or if it generates a decent amount of revenue, don't split the train and run it round the Edinburgh Suburban.

Moving back to multiple units the easiest solution is to set refurbish a 7 car and 2 5 car meridians into a sleeper interior, then it's a simple split/join, no shunting required. The engine noises would help me fall to sleep. Also you could run the Highlander with meridians, and use those coaches on the night riviera, keeping the Mk5s on the lowlander.

 

[Trainbike46]

Are there any sleeper MUs in mainland Europe? Isn't it the desire not to have underfloor traction noises (even for seated accommodation) the reason sleepers have remained as loco-hauled?

I think Vy (Norway) have some on sleeper MUs on order, but none in service

 

[Tetragon213]

I believe mainland China uses quite a few EMUs for sleeper services.

 

[lachlan]

Just run the lowlander via ECML and carry on from Edinburgh to Glasgow which would scrap all the shunting moves and adapt one carriage to a driving van trailer. Scrap the highlander as little demand to Aberdeen and how seasonal is demand to Fort William?

Where has it been said that there is little demand for Aberdeen?

If anything the Fort William service feels like the most vital service given how difficult is it to get there otherwise.

And where does this leave the Inverness service?

 

[Tetragon213]

getting off topic but the mk3 coaching stock are end of life too

the EMU pulling coaching stock idea feels like a rabbit hole as cant see how that would improve the efficency of sleeper services?, what do you get from a seated EMU pulling a overnight service?

Hence why I was considering the bimodes with coaches. An EMU hauling a sleeper seems rather odd to me. I think life can still be squeezed out of the Mk3s; their continued use on the Night Riviera sleeper, Castle/Inter7City HST sets and Chiltern's use of the Mk3 on their premier runs with Class 68s shows that there is life still in the old stock.

Something such as a Class 88/93 (with a slightly beefier engine) capable of hauling a rake of Mk3/Mk4 coaches would at least allow the sleeper locomotives to earn their keep in the daytime. Heck, depending on how many crayons you want to use, one could consider following the European style where the bunks fold away in the day, allowing you to use the sleeper coaches in the daytime as effectively compartment coaches just like in the days of old (I suspect you'd also need to latch the door open).

 

[eldomtom2]

My personal proposal would be for a fleet of four-car bi-mode EMUs. Based on the existing sleeper formations I'd suggest most of these would be 1 seated coach + 3 sleeper coaches, with a few being 1 seated coach + 1 lounge/buffet coach + 2 sleeper coaches. For convenience I'll refer to the units with a lounge coach as "L" and those without as "NL".
So the Lowlander would be L+NL+NL+NL, splitting in half at Carstairs.
The Highlander would be L+NL+NL+NL, splitting at Edinburgh with L+NL heading to Inverness, with one NL each heading to Aberdeen and Fort William.
The Night Riviera would be L+NL. (Is there room to increase the number of coaches on the Riviera?)
Ideally to increase stock utilisation the sleeper compartments would be convertable into regular seated compartments to allow the stock to run daytime services (perhaps they could make the return journey as a luxury express service during the day instead of waiting for the next night? This wouldn't increase the stock required because you need two sets to run both directions on the same night anyway).

 

[computerSaysNo]

There are 45 Class 444 trainsets. Each is formed of driving motor - trailer - trailer - trailer - driving motor.
My suggestion would be refit a number of these as required with AC equipment and fit batteries in one or more of the trailer cars (I know this wouldn't be cheap but it's a one-off cost). The batteries can recharge when under the wires or by having the train be plugged in at the northern termini. Regenerative braking can also be used on the Inverness and Fort William branches. Trains can leave Euston in 15-car sets. Each set has a cab at each end so splitting and joining should be quick.

 

[Tetragon213]

There are 45 Class 444 trainsets. Each is formed of driving motor - trailer - trailer - trailer - driving motor.
My suggestion would be refit a number of these as required with AC equipment and fit batteries in one or more of the trailer cars (I know this wouldn't be cheap but it's a one-off cost). The batteries can recharge when under the wires or by having the train be plugged in at the northern termini. Regenerative braking can also be used on the Inverness and Fort William branches. Trains can leave Euston in 15-car sets. Each set has a cab at each end so splitting and joining should be quick.

I think it would be cheaper to just get some more Class 93s!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What couchettes are being discussed? The ones I remember the seats folded out to meet each other and you slept longitudinally, giving the same issue as fold flat seats.

Those aren't couchettes. Those are just seated compartments where you could do that if it wasn't full.

Couchettes are like shelves, 3 (sometimes 2) on each side, transverse. DB had some Talgo sets with longitudinal couchettes but they weren't common.

 

[Zomboid]

I don't know how comparable it is, but the bunks in tour buses (such as that used by bands) are longitudinal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know how comparable it is, but the bunks in tour buses (such as that used by bands) are longitudinal.

Buses can't go backwards for any significant distance.

 

[ollyexe2808]

Buses can't go backwards for any significant distance.

How does it work with the VY flatbed seats in Norway? Not sure if there is something different that enables them to function with these seats

https://www.vy.no/en/buy-tickets/train-tickets/plusnight

 

[Bletchleyite]

How does it work with the VY flatbed seats in Norway? Not sure if there is something different that enables them to function with these seats

https://www.vy.no/en/buy-tickets/train-tickets/plusnight

Different countries have different safety regulations. But do these trains reverse? The issue is going backwards, specifically the possiblity of a severe neck injury in a collision.

 

[ollyexe2808]

Different countries have different safety regulations. But do these trains reverse? The issue is going backwards, specifically the possiblity of a severe neck injury in a collision.

Not sure if these trains go backwards, the seats have hard shell around the head end though, not sure if this relevant. They also are angled towards the windows, so diagonal to the direction of travel which may help perhaps. These carriages run on the Oslo-Bergen route, so either they are shunted one end to keep them in the direction of travel or are reversed, not sure

 

[WideRanger]

The only remaining conventional (as opposed to super-premium) sleepers in Japan are EMUs, which run as a pair and split on the route. There's only one route with 2 branches left.

 

[Tester]

The only remaining conventional (as opposed to super-premium) sleepers in Japan are EMUs, which run as a pair and split on the route. There's only one route with 2 branches left.

Which have many longitudinal berths, with a 50:50 chance of being head first.

If only we could have their 'Nobi-nobi' berths - lie flat for the seated fare (free with a JR Pass)!

 

[deltic]

Where has it been said that there is little demand for Aberdeen?

If anything the Fort William service feels like the most vital service given how difficult is it to get there otherwise.

And where does this leave the Inverness service?
[/QU

Where has it been said that there is little demand for Aberdeen?

If anything the Fort William service feels like the most vital service given how difficult is it to get there otherwise.

And where does this leave the Inverness service?

The question was could the sleepers be self funding. The Highlander has no chance of being self funding. There have been plenty of comments about the decline in demand for the Aberdeen service. Getting rid of shunting may give the lowlander a chance of self funding.

 

[gingerheid]

The sleeper always seems to be completely full, including seats, (or have one double room) whenever I try to book it these days (and I always check Glasgow / Edinburgh / Helensburgh). I wonder to what extent unmet demand could bring it towards break even.

 

[Falcon1200]

I wonder to what extent unmet demand could bring it towards break even.

If the trains are full unmet demand could only be met by obtaining more stock and running more trains, thus increasing the cost of providing the service - And we're back to Square One!

 

[SuspectUsual]

I wonder to what extent unmet demand could bring it towards break even

There would undoubtedly be some economies of scale in terms of diluting the cost of central costs, but unless any additional trains also ran at capacity, the direct operating loss of the additional trains also would be greater than the existing one.

When n is the capacity of the train, the n+1th passenger is very expensive!

 

[Brubulus]

There would undoubtedly be some economies of scale in terms of diluting the cost of central costs, but unless any additional trains also ran at capacity, the direct operating loss of the additional trains also would be greater than the existing one.

When n is the capacity of the train, the n+1th passenger is very expensive!

The three things that can be done to bring the sleeper closer to breakeven. Increase capacity of existing trains, for example by replacing seats with Nightjet style capsules, increase ticket prices and reduce costs, for example by eliminating shunting and merging administrative costs with ScotRail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The three things that can be done to bring the sleeper closer to breakeven. Increase capacity of existing trains, for example by replacing seats with Nightjet style capsules, increase ticket prices and reduce costs, for example by eliminating shunting and merging administrative costs with ScotRail.

I do wonder if it's time to remove the Aberdeen service. It's the shortest of the three Highlander routes and these days by far the least popular; with CS merged into ScotRail it could have a dedicated connecting service to the Edinburgh Lowlander instead, guaranteed to await the connection (and for the Sleeper to wait for it) and cross-platform or as near to it as possible.

This would allow a massive simplification into two half-train services. If we could do that it's a shame the stock order wasn't for Sleeper bi-mode units which could have saved a fair bit of money on shunting, but we are where we are, and a new stock build definitely won't save money!