Chiltern Railways - threat of prosecution

[Whiskey]

Hi all,

I received an email from chiltern railways in November of this year saying they intend to prosecute for an incident which happened in July of last year. Essentially my railcard had ran out in March of the same year and I honestly hadn’t realised and was travelling whilst paying for a discounted ticket when in fact my railcard was expired. In my mind I thought that considering the railcard was on the Trainline app that once it had expired it wouldn’t let me buy railcard fares anymore but I now know that isn’t the case. I was caught in July, apologised to the train officer and bought a new full price ticket there and then.

I have since then received an email saying they intended to prosecute and could I provide details. I wrote an email to them using advice I had seen on this forum, apologising for my mistake, asking if this could possibly be settled out of court and stating I am willing to pay any admin fees in the process. Chiltern have since replied and asked for proof of when my railcard had ran out this year, and also asked for proof that I had a railcard between May 2021-June 2022..? They have also asked for my address to send me a spreadsheet to fill out of all the times I have travelled without a railcard. This seems peculiar to me as surely they have all this information anyway?

I honestly have no idea why they are asking for this, I am an honest person and have always held a railcard to my knowledge (I can’t now as I am 32), and am unsure why they have looked into something so far back?

Basically I am looking for some advice on how to proceed next and have a few questions. Firstly, how would I prove I had a railcard that far back? The app for me only shows the last railcard I held and doesn’t show previous railcards which I know I have had. Secondly, I have read about there being a certain period in which instances like this can no longer be investigated, would a 3 year old case be one of those instances?
Thirdly, how should I respond back to this? My plan was going to be to respond again apologising for the incident and again asking to settle this out of court, I’ll send them proof I had a railcard up till March this year and state I am willing to pay the difference plus admin fees for March-July this year.
Finally - could this actually go to court and even worse, could this result in time in prison?

I am very worried about this and it has really affected my mental health and just want the issue to be resolved as quickly as possible and would really appreciate any help I can get on this.

Thanks

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi all,

I received an email from chiltern railways in November of this year saying they intend to prosecute for an incident which happened in July of last year. Essentially my railcard had ran out in March of the same year and I honestly hadn’t realised and was travelling whilst paying for a discounted ticket when in fact my railcard was expired. In my mind I thought that considering the railcard was on the Trainline app that once it had expired it wouldn’t let me buy railcard fares anymore but I now know that isn’t the case. I was caught in July, apologised to the train officer and bought a new full price ticket there and then.

I have since then received an email saying they intended to prosecute and could I provide details. I wrote an email to them using advice I had seen on this forum, apologising for my mistake, asking if this could possibly be settled out of court and stating I am willing to pay any admin fees in the process. Chiltern have since replied and asked for proof of when my railcard had ran out this year, and also asked for proof that I had a railcard between July-September 2021..? They have also asked for my address to send me a spreadsheet to fill out of all the times I have travelled without a railcard. This seems peculiar to me as surely they have all this information anyway?

I honestly have no idea why they are asking for this, I am an honest person and have always held a railcard to my knowledge (I can’t now as I am 32), and am unsure why they have looked into something so far back?

Basically I am looking for some advice on how to proceed next and have a few questions. Firstly, how would I prove I had a railcard that far back? The app for me only shows the last railcard I held and doesn’t show previous railcards which I know I have had. Secondly, I have read about there being a certain period in which instances like this can no longer be investigated, would a 3 year old case be one of those instances?
Thirdly, how should I respond back to this? My plan was going to be to respond again apologising for the incident and again asking to settle this out of court, I’ll send them proof I had a railcard up till March this year and state I am willing to pay the difference plus admin fees for March-July this year.

I am very worried about this and it has really affected my mental health and just want the issue to be resolved as quickly as possible and would really appreciate any help I can get on this.

Thanks

When precisely were you stopped in July? Please tell us the date as it might make a difference to the best advice.

 

[Whiskey]

When precisely were you stopped in July? Please tell us the date as it might make a difference to the best advice.

Thank you for your quick response! Apologies it was the 1st August and not July, I had July in my head as I had realistically been travelling without a railcard unknowingly twice a week for all of March-July.

 

[Hadders]

Please can you upload redacted copies of all the correspondence relating to the case, including any paperwork you were given when you were stopped.

Can you also confirm what railcard you held (I assume it was a 26-30)
Did you travel before 10am on weekdays with railcard discounted tickets costing less than £12

 

[Whiskey]

Please can you upload redacted copies of all the correspondence relating to the case, including any paperwork you were given when you were stopped.

Can you also confirm what railcard you held (I assume it was a 26-30)
Did you travel before 10am on weekdays with railcard discounted tickets costing less than £12

I will work on the copies now for you, thanks for your response. I held the 26-30 railcard and I would have been travelling before 10am with my rail journey costing in total £30 after the railcard discount.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

Please can you upload redacted copies of all the correspondence relating to the case, including any paperwork you were given when you were stopped.

Can you also confirm what railcard you held (I assume it was a 26-30)
Did you travel before 10am on weekdays with railcard discounted tickets costing less than £12

The initial letter they sent via email said this:

“We are in receipt of a report, which advises that on Thursday 1st August 2024, a person giving your name was spoken to by railway revenue protection staff in connection with a journey between xx and Marylebone, at the time you failed to show a valid rail ticket for the journey that you were making or had made. Following you being spoken to; the Economic Crime & Fraud Unit submitted a data access request Under Schedule 2 Part 1 Paragraph 2 of the Data Protection Act 2018 and GDPR Article 6 (1) (d), to various rail ticket retailers, which has revealed that you may have avoided the correct rail fare on other occasions. If you have a valid railcard but were unable to produce it to the rail official on the day in question, please email a copy of any railcards you hold or previously held for us to review. The purpose of this letter is to advise you of the report and of any action that may follow from it, and to provide you with the opportunity to inform us of any mitigation that you may wish to be considered. This should be sent via email to Fraud@chilternrailways.co.ukThe report of this incident indicates that in the absence of a satisfactory explanation, evidence does exist to warrant a prosecution in accordance with the current legislation. These considerations may include whether any charge should allege an offence against Railway Byelaws (2005), or the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. You are therefore advised to seek out independent legal advice from a Solicitor trained in criminal law and who is registered with the Law Society. It would also be an advantage if they have knowledge of rail fare law, as this is a specialised area. The company considers this a serious matter, and if we do not hear from you within 14 days of the date of this letter, this matter will be passed to our Prosecuting Authority with a view to obtaining a Summons to a Magistrates' Court hearing, this may be issued without further reference to you.”

In my reply I said this:

“
Good Afternoon,

Hope you’re well.

With regards to the incident in question on the 1st August 2024, this was an innocent mistake on my part which I apologise for. I usually buy my tickets when I am waiting for the train on the platform, so when I arrived at the station I did not have a ticket purchased.
There was a member of staff halfway down the walkway that was checking tickets which prompted me to buy my ticket for my journey, however in my haste I accidentally purchased the journey with a railcard as I used to have one previously so did it by accident and on autopilot. I didn’t do this on purpose as I knew the worker was going to check the ticket anyway but nevertheless I purchased the correct journey with a railcard, when I wasn’t in possession of the railcard. The member of staff then scanned my ticket and quickly established that I had bought a ticket with a railcard when I didn’t possess one. I immediately apologised and proceeded to buy a new ticket without a railcard, thus paying almost double for the fare to ensure I now had the correct ticket.

I apologise for this incident and any inconvenience it has caused on your behalf. If this could please be settled out of court that would be greatly appreciated, it was an innocent mistake that I am happy to own up to and if this could be settled out of court to avoid prosecution I would be willing to pay for any administrative costs in dealing with this case. I promise to buy my tickets much further in advance and to ensure I have the correct ticket going forward so that this situation doesn’t arise again.

Kind regards”

And there response which I have recently received and yet to respond to said this:

“
Thank you for your e-mail.



Please can you confirm your postal address.


Please can you also forward proof of your 26-30 railcard used to purchase discounted tickets from May 2021 to June 2022 and from February 2024.

Once this proof has been received, we can then send you a spreadsheet with your ticket purchasing history for you to comment on.

If you engage in this process, it may be possible for you to settle this matter via an out of court disposal.”

 

[Whiskey]

Please can you upload redacted copies of all the correspondence relating to the case, including any paperwork you were given when you were stopped.

Can you also confirm what railcard you held (I assume it was a 26-30)
Did you travel before 10am on weekdays with railcard discounted tickets costing less than £12

Thank you, I have replied but it says it’s awaiting moderator approval. You are correct the railcard was 26-30 and the I was travelling on an open return, leaving before 10am two days a week and my ticket cost around £30 each day.

 

[AlterEgo]

When is the deadline for you to respond to their correspondence by?

They have until 1st February to lay papers before a court if they wish to prosecute you, so they are very close to collapsing their own case.

 

[Whiskey]

When is the deadline for you to respond to their correspondence by?

They have until 1st February to lay papers before a court if they wish to prosecute you, so they are very close to collapsing their own case.

They haven’t set me a deadline on the latest email they sent me which was sent on the 23rd December. I figured they wouldn’t be looking at emails over Christmas and gave me time to gather my thoughts.

 

[AlterEgo]

They haven’t set me a deadline on the latest email they sent me which was sent on the 23rd December. I figured they wouldn’t be looking at emails over Christmas and gave me time to gather my thoughts.

As they haven't given you a deadline, you should reply fairly quickly, as they may simply send a summons or SJPN out - or may even have already done so. Chiltern do this sometimes to avoid fouling the 6 month time limit for summary-only criminal offences.

 

[30907]

Regarding the earlier period (21-22) you should be able to find evidence of a transaction. I presume you didn't use one for the following 9 months?

 

[WesternLancer]

I suspect the reason they want to list out / discuss all the old travel is because they want to get this correct (and then charge you what they think you owe) so it's actually in your interest to get them to set this out so you can check it against any records you can access from your own ticket buying history. In that sense it's in your interests to engage with them - eg ask them to provide a list where they think you may have had an incorrect ticket so that you can check your own records. Co-operating with them like that is more likely to help obtain an out of court settlement I suspect.

It's more problematic if you can't prove you had a railcard from several years ago (how would you have bought it, on line? If so from where? It would have cost £30 I think - can you find that sum on an old bank statement paid to a railway or ticketing company? or did you buy a hard copy railcard from a ticket office?)

It may be that ultimately you can't prove it but you could try clearly asserting that you had a Railcard in your reply (if they think other aspects of your reply are honest they may well accept that assertion) - it's not really reasonable for them to expect you to have retained proof of Railcard ownership from years ago well after it expired after all.

They wont prosecute you for ticketing irregularities from years ago, they would just prosecute you for the more recent offence. But if you want a settlement they want to charge you for any unpaid fares they think happened back then. That's the 'deal' for the settlement. In theory the prosecution route could result in a lower cost potentially, but most people of course want to avoid the criminal record that goes with that.

 

[Whiskey]

When is the deadline for you to respond to their correspondence by?

They have until 1st February to lay papers before a court if they wish to prosecute you, so they are very close to collapsing their own case.

Why would they need to do it by 1st February out of interest?

 

[AlterEgo]

Why would they need to do it by 1st February out of interest?

Because they have six months to prosecute, which starts from 1st August, when you were caught. If they're later than that they can't prosecute you.

 

[7454567]

I suspect the reason they want to list out / discuss all the old travel is because they want to get this correct (and then charge you what they think you owe) so it's actually in your interest to get them to set this out so you can check it against any records you can access from your own ticket buying history. In that sense it's in your interests to engage with them - eg ask them to provide a list where they think you may have had an incorrect ticket so that you can check your own records. Co-operating with them like that is more likely to help obtain an out of court settlement I suspect.

It's more problematic if you can't prove you had a railcard from several years ago (how would you have bought it, on line? If so from where? It would have cost £30 I think - can you find that sum on an old bank statement paid to a railway or ticketing company? or did you buy a hard copy railcard from a ticket office?)

It may be that ultimately you can't prove it but you could try clearly asserting that you had a Railcard in your reply (if they think other aspects of your reply are honest they may well accept that assertion) - it's not really reasonable for them to expect you to have retained proof of Railcard ownership from years ago well after it expired after all.

They wont prosecute you for ticketing irregularities from years ago, they would just prosecute you for the more recent offence. But if you want a settlement they want to charge you for any unpaid fares they think happened back then. That's the 'deal' for the settlement. In theory the prosecution route could result in a lower cost potentially, but most people of course want to avoid the criminal record that goes with that.

Hi just wondering what the outcome of this was, going through the same thing where they have asked for proof of various railcards from different dates before sending a list to comment on?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi just wondering what the outcome of this was, going through the same thing where they have asked for proof of various railcards from different dates before sending a list to comment on?

The person who started this thread @Whiskey hasn’t been back since January by the look of it.