Bombardier to announce substantial job losses

[radamfi]

This not hiring & firing its about factory gates shutting see British Steel & British car manufacturing once factories are closed its lost for ever & the land then being redeveloped.
MP's need wake up call they want us to work for long so where are these jobs to be found & this years school leavers where will they find these so called modern apprenticeships MP's bang on about.

If the land is being redeveloped then there will continue to be employment at that location.

Unemployment (especially youth unemployment) may be high at the moment due to the weak economy but that will improve in time. We've had these times before, for example early 80s and early 90s.

 

[jon0844]

If Bombardier throws its toys out of the pram, and Siemens invests in the UK, will it be considered a good deal to protect UK workers when the next contracts are coming up? Namely to give it to Siemens?

It's definitely a game Bombardier are playing by saying it is planning to axe the jobs, as if there's still time to stop it happening. But if 1,200 were going anyway - surely that's even more reason to consider another builder?

I know each of these 1,200-1,400 people are individual people, but in the grand scheme of things they're just numbers.. and overall there's a net gain of jobs.

Also, I think there's too much emotion in this if nearly 1,000 were contractors. Any contractor (take those who worked on HS2, or those working on rebuilding King's Cross station) knows the ups and downs of contracting. It's the nature of the job, and I am sure that any half decent contractor will already be securing work elsewhere (maybe Siemens) and relocating as necessary.

I think this is more about UK vs Germany, with everyone seemingly ignoring - deliberately - that neither are British firms. However, Siemens is at least a European firm and we're in Europe. I can't help but feel that the reaction would have been different if it had been another member state. France - even worse. Poland - don't even go there.. but what about somewhere we 'like' like Spain or Italy?

Save the politics and point scoring, we have to assume the best bid won. The only thing to change it would be if Siemens had somehow obtained information about rival bids, bribed a politician or something like that. Otherwise nothing is going to change, and nor should it.

 

[blacknight]

If the land is being redeveloped then there will continue to be employment at that location.

Not many jobs going if site is turned into a housing estate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.Unemployment (especially youth unemployment) may be high at the moment due to the weak economy but that will improve in time. We've had these times before, for example early 80s and early 90s.

It was high in the 80's trouble is in 30 years manufacturing base as been stripped bare & service industry cannot fill the void as people have to have disposable income to spend which just aint the case anymore
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Bombardier throws its toys out of the pram, and Siemens invests in the UK, will it be considered a good deal to protect UK workers when the next contracts are coming up? Namely to give it to Siemens?

I think this is more about UK vs Germany, with everyone seemingly ignoring - deliberately - that neither are British firms. However, Siemens is at least a European firm and we're in Europe. I can't help but feel that the reaction would have been different if it had been another member state. France - even worse. Poland - don't even go there.. but what about somewhere we 'like' like Spain or Italy?

Save the politics and point scoring, we have to assume the best bid won. The only thing to change it would be if Siemens had somehow obtained information about rival bids, bribed a politician or something like that. Otherwise nothing is going to change, and nor should it.

Alternatively any future contracts could be given to 21 century version of BREL creating British not european jobs that suddenly relocate to the Fatherland at end of the contract. One wonders exactly what sort of jobs will be created inUK as it as been stated coaches will be built in Germany?
As a country we have to build a new manufacturing base of British not european companies for future economy of this country. Look at Pacers a British design so good almost most future proof that its lasted 30 years if only they had built cheap Korean coke cans that need replacing every 5 years in 80's

 

[Oswyntail]

.... Thy obviously dont want to be manufacturers or they wouldnt of cancelled loan to sheffield forgemasters to make nuclear power plants. Which they would of made money on with interest so i didnt get that either... ...

IIRC, that loan was a massive subsidy on a specific limited set of items purely put in place to bribe voters, and would probably have been cancelled whatever party won.
The real question, though, is how is British manufacturing meant to win orders? Quality is not really a British selling point, except in small niches, and, though we have known that for decades, nothing has been done about it. Costs are also high, only in part because of the need to import raw materials or taxation. IMHO, before we can talk about creating British jobs, we must address the question of why British firms find it so hard to win orders at home or overseas. [And please let's not get into Thatcher-bashing. The problems were there in the 60s and 70s, and her solution, of exposing our industries to the full force of competition did not give them sufficient boot up the backside, but were not the cause of the British malaise]

 

[Wyvern]

There are two sentimental reasons why the job losses and potential closure of Derby Works are causing such grief.

The first is that it is the last train-making factory in the UK. Second it has a history going back to 1840.

The problem that it has is that orders for Britain must necessarily be intermittent yet it is difficult to produce an "international design" and go to market because of problems in testing and delivery with the UK's loading gauge.

Derby can only be seen by Bombardier as being in the periphery of its operations.

PS: I write as a Derby person with "Midland Railway" written right through him.

PPS: What a shame we let our leadership in high end railway research and technology slip through our fingers.

Report in Derby Evening Telegrah

 

[159220]

My thoughts? Firstly you should never read too much into speculation in the media. They all have political aims. Including the BBC! This new information about Bombardier already planning job cuts, Thameslink or not, truly shows don’t read too much into the media. Especially the BBC, which after a Guardian report showed is very susceptible to publishing companies etc press releases as news fact. Of course I even question the Guardians stats. Always question, never accept! lol

Reported on Channel 4 News last night was the same story, though the speculation was 1,200 job. Of which 800 are CONTRACTORS and 400 are staff. Contracted staff are ALWAYS a temporary measure. Do we complain after Christmas when all the high street shops let go of all there temporary CONTRACTED staff? No!

I am amused every one is treating Bombardier like a British company. Sorry but the idea of British train manufacturing died with BREL. Simple as that. At the end of the day, taxpayers money invested in Bombardier ends up in Canada, paying the dividends of Canadian shareholders. Siemens on the other had is within the European Union and Economic Area, thus we are protecting our European wide economy. The whole point of the EU being protectionism!!! This is without even mentioning that the Desiro is a far superior unit!!

(Interestingly why do we call Bombardiers plant in Derby as producing British trains when we don’t call Hondas or Nissans plants in the UK as producing British cars? Why just trains. As said…British trains died with BREL)

The assembly line in Derby will not close, dont fall for the PR Bombardier are putting out, which news services pick up. Contracted staff are hired and let go at the end of contract all the time. They would of gone anyway inbetween the 172, SSU and 378 lines finishing and the Thameslink fleet starting. The actual staff who go, firstly, i would imagine out of the 400....a sizeable amount of these would of naturally moved on any...I can imagine these "upto 300 jobs Siemens and upto 1,500 jobs Hitachi" are putting out in PR will attract alot of the Bombardier skilled employees as these two other companies will head hunt the best and offer better pay and conditions.

Plus, even if it was 1,400 cuts, If they were all skilled staff and not contractors....well...we are within the EU....go and apply for a job constructing trains in Germany?

There no such thing as British Jobs gone, German jobs gained etc. DB ordered ICEx to Siemens what happened to be a German company. For example in Sweden, they have Bombardier, Alstom etc trains....they dont have a Swedish manufacturer. So what where the company is based!!...IS THE END BUYER GETTING THE BEST VALUE FOR MONEY AND THE BEST PRODUCT FOR THE SPECIFICATIONS? YES!

Hitachi train plant wont be picking employees out of fresh air, they will be specifically hunting out the skilled Bombardier employees with much better terms! Its business....jobs transfer across the entire country....GDP grows....the EU protects itself against outside interests.

Lastly, I agree with comments that Bombardier wont close the assembly lines in Derby. They would be mad too....you have got a 3rd of the UK rolling stock that needs to be replaced by 2020 according to Network Rails latest report. You just terminate all the contracted employees, allow some of the skilled employees to move to Siemens and Hitachi until new contracts for Crossrail, Mersey, Northern, Tubelines, Scotrail, Anglian, HS2 etc come in.

Remember Canadians own Bombardier. Europeans own Siemens! Our biggest trading partner is Europe and it is our interest as an economy for Europe to grow for our trade to grow. Not Canadas!

 

[blacknight]

What are we turning this country into were we not once a nation of engineers not some glorified spanner monkey working for a forgein master. Maybe if out of this mess a 21 century BREL could be reformed. Would be good for balance of trade if we could export British design to the world again, as to be more to this country than over priced coffee shop economy not that they will be doing much trade in Derby in months to come.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IS THE END BUYER GETTING THE BEST VALUE FOR MONEY AND THE BEST PRODUCT FOR THE SPECIFICATIONS? YES!.

Best value for buyer dont mean best value for tax payer though do it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Plus, even if it was 1,400 cuts, If they were all skilled staff and not contractors....well...we are within the EU....go and apply for a job constructing trains in Germany?

Might be some competion from the locals for those jobs me thinks

 

[Snapper]

Reform BREL...?

That's a very unrealistic pipedream.

And what British designs do we have that the world would want? None. They only designs that have gone abroad recently are owned by Bombardier and Siemens.

 

[blacknight]

(Interestingly why do we call Bombardiers plant in Derby as producing British trains when we don’t call Hondas or Nissans plants in the UK as producing British cars? Why just trains. As said…British trains died with BREL).

Might just be here as away around European quotas build Japanese car in UK & it qualifies as British & import quotas are bypassed.

 

[radamfi]

Which European countries build trains?

 

[blacknight]

Reform BREL...?

That's a very unrealistic pipedream.

What is the alternative pay for forgein over the counter design loss of what skilled manufacturing is left in this country or start once again to design it things again in this country chance then to export & improve balance of payments.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which European countries build trains?

The same ones that build cars Sooner or later this country is going to have to make choice as to whether or not it wants to retain a manufacturing base or become a third world country existing on EU hand out, not that Germans are to keen to bail Greece out again. How can this country continue to have standard of living it as grown used to if it can nolonger pay its way.

 

[Teaboy1]

Yes. Protectionism rarely benefits anyone in the long term, and especially not the taxpayers and farepayers who buy the goods.

Ha so why are 100% of French trains built in France and 95% of German trains built in Germany??

Nope sorry to burst your bubble but protectionism works fine and is alive and kick in the Eurozone !! Wake up and smell the coffee everyone .... its a war zone (economic) out there and the prize is jobs, standard of living and prosperity. Basic way to improve your wealth is take in raw materials, hammer them into something useful .... and sell them to foreigners !! Worked last century ... still applies today !!

 

[Oswyntail]

Which European countries build trains?

...The same ones that build cars ...

So what is it that enables those countries to build trains and cars that are saleable to others? I can't believe it is simply a question of Johnny Foreigner breaking the state subsidy rules, or even oppressing the workers more than we do. Could it be something to do with the attitude of both workers and company owners to their product? In just about every area of endeavour, not just manufacturing, you come across the attitude of "We're British and have a right to be at the top table". We don't - we have to earn it, and we haven't been good at that for about 150 years.

 

[Via Bank]

Ha so why are 100% of French trains built in France and 95% of German trains built in Germany??

Oh, I don't know. Maybe because the French and the Germans have French and German companies (Alstom and Siemens) who do all of their R&D in France and Germany, and hence have the best expertise in building trains perfectly suited to the needs of French and German operators (SNCF and DB) at manufacturing plants in France and Germany?

 

[Wyvern]

May I recommend that anyone commenting about the UK as an international manufacturer watches Evan Davis's BBC series "Made in Britain"

The third and final episode was last night, but all three are still on iPlayer

 

[ag]

i presonally think the best bit is that if they did win thameslink they would still have to get rid of 1200...
So its not like getting thameslink would do a great deal...

correct BUT most of those would have been contractors that would have come back when the build would have started but it would have safeguarded the permanent staff

 

[Teaboy1]

Dont for 1 second think Siemens are whiter-than-white, this is the company that bought up CA Parsons (Newcastle) ... a major competitor and highly innovative company with engineering excellence at its core) ... and promptly closed down the works, shipped all those nice machine tools back to Berlin. Not a take over but an assassination IMHO.
Frenchies did the same with EGT Turbines (Lincoln) when Winestock agreed to break up GEC-Alsthom, strange how the breakup never affected the Frenchies or their factories .. Lincoln, Stafford and Rugby are all gone now ... explain that please ???
Seems we are the only ones playing by the rules .. EU rules at that ...!!

Sorry but the facts & figures point towards protectionism, dont for a second think that the EU are ever likely to side with UK if there is no profit in it.

ps R&D I think was based in Derby albeit under BR management but we can still do the business and so can the British worker ... if management dont sell out the few remaining factories .... once they are gone ... they are gone .....take a look at Chesterfield city centre now Brain Donkins have gone !!

 

[ag]

well it looks like doom and gloom for us at Bombardier after the annoucements made this morning, feeling let down by the government YES DEFINATLY

shocked - no, cant say i am shocked to be honest but what I can say is that its going to be a very uncomfortable couple of months

on a personal note there are 35 from 50 staff in my department that will be going as part of these cuts so not a very good chance of staying,

sad times for the uk manufacturing industry.

 

[ukrob]

well it looks like doom and gloom for us at Bombardier after the annoucements made this morning, feeling let down by the government YES DEFINATLY

shocked - no, cant say i am shocked to be honest but what I can say is that its going to be a very uncomfortable couple of months

on a personal note there are 35 from 50 staff in my department that will be going as part of these cuts so not a very good chance of staying,

sad times for the uk manufacturing industry.

Why? It was the previous Government that made this happen by procurement rules.

 

[jon0844]

Reform BREL...?

That's a very unrealistic pipedream.

And what British designs do we have that the world would want? None. They only designs that have gone abroad recently are owned by Bombardier and Siemens.

If we broke away from the rest of Europe, what reason would any other country have to buy from us? What makes anyone think the French would buy from us or the Germans if they're only looking out for themselves?

And if it was only BREL, then what happens when they're busy working on projects and can't take on any more work? Do you expand and build new factories?

If so, what happens when the work dies down? Oh, you get rid of people!

I can't believe that even if BREL was reformed and we didn't bother with tenders and just gave it all the work, it would simply employ thousands of people with job security for life.

It would be nice, yes, but it aint EVER going to happen and that isn't the fault of the 'evil' EU.

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

[QUOTE
.......Basic way to improve your wealth is take in raw materials, hammer them into something useful .... and sell them to foreigners !! Worked last century ... still applies today !![/QUOTE]


Blimey. 'eres me thinkin we could all be marketin managers........or accounts executives.......

We are stuffed folks, we gave our advantage away when we began thinking that getting our hands dirty whilst at work was beneath us. If we dont get our fingers out PDQ we will be heading to the third world.

 

[ag]

Why? It was the previous Government that made this happen by procurement rules.

didnt say which government, just governments in general, let down big time on IEP and now thameslink.

 

[ukrob]

didnt say which government, just governments in general, let down big time on IEP and now thameslink.

Apologies, didn't read your post properly

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well, what new train orders are due? Once the LM 172s are done, I'm struggling to think of anything! I guess the 14# pacer units need replacing at some point, but I've not seen any rumours or talk of that being in hand....

Exactly, at some point! Companies cannot wait for "at some point!"

 

[blacknight]

didnt say which government, just governments in general, let down big time on IEP and now thameslink.

Problem with our recent crop of MP's is majority are full time politians never had a proper job in industry & have little idea on how competition of market place works so how can they then be expected to be able to run country effectively:roll:

 

[Foxhound]

Why? It was the previous Government that made this happen by procurement rules.

Enforced by the EU, like lots of legislation in many areas. Member States are supposed to play by EU rules. The last government may not have been perfect, but privatisation of the railways is why we are in this situation today.
Am I bitter? Yes I am, being an ex-railwayman.
Why? Because now I work for another national institution where privatisation by stealth has been introduced again by a Conservative administration, and jobs are at risk again - but this time it puts the public at risk. Nurses WILL lose their jobs.

Thatcher and Son-of-Thatcher must be overjoyed. The unions are now unable to defend the working man and woman while the nation's industries have been systematically decimated.

I realise Bombardier are a Canadian firm, but the very idea that Derby, one of the cradles of the railway industry all the users of this forum are passionate about, is to lose its last link to train manufacture, makes me furious.
Yes, Siemens say they are creating 2000 jobs. Where? Derby? Swindon? Crewe? Doncaster?

Last one out switch off the lights.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yeah, that bit was hidden in the middle of the BBC story. So with up to 2,000 jobs created by Siemens there is a significant net gain.

But, Siemens is German. Fine for luxury cars but otherwise you must always think back to the war...

Someone also remind Unite that Bombardier isn't British?!

Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia arc via Tapatalk.

Please explain how these 2,000 jobs will be created? That is absolute nonsense. Who owns Bombardier is not the issue, its where the jobs are that counts.

 

[90019]

This not hiring & firing its about factory gates shutting see British Steel & British car manufacturing once factories are closed its lost for ever & the land then being redeveloped.

Do you drive a British car?

 

[allticketspls]

Please explain how these 2,000 jobs will be created? That is absolute nonsense. Who owns Bombardier is not the issue, its where the jobs are that counts.

IIRC The 2000 jobs are split between manufacturing components for the new trains, building the new depots at Three Bridges & Hornsey and will also be created to maintain the stock once built.

 

[313103]

” Bob Crow, RMT general secretary, said: “This act of political sabotage to a key element of the remaining UK manufacturing base could leave the nation that gave the world the railways building nothing but a few basic components.”

Yes Mr Crow, political sabotage by your friends at the Labour Party when they decided the procurement policy.

I didnt realise Mr Crow had friends in the Labour party, i mean he has never been a member of the Labour Party and the Labour Party expelled the RMT from its organisation for daring to support another political party.