Could the Sleepers be made self-funding?

[Zomboid]

If we were Switzerland where they do such things as have EMUs haul carriage stock, sure! But this is the UK. That would be far to difficult.

We used to do such things on the Bournemouth line

 

[eldomtom2]

This is a rather zany idea, but given the enormous power that a modern EMU has, could sleeper vehicles be hauled north to Carlisle (or to Edinburgh/Glasgow for the lowland) coupled to a suitable EMU?

Why not just replace the Mk 5s with EMUs? Then locos are only used for the unelectrified sections of the Highlander.

 

[ainsworth74]

We used to do such things on the Bournemouth line

Used to being the operative phrase there! I have very little faith that the railway of 2025 would be willing to operate in this sort of way sadly.

 

[Zomboid]

Used to being the operative phrase there! I have very little faith that the railway of 2025 would be willing to operate in this sort of way sadly.

It's not really relevant to the sleeper anyway - which EMUs have the power to pull a 16 car sleeper and also provide ETS? Let's assume a Pendolino could - what on earth are you going to do with a 25 car formation at Euston or anywhere else?

And if the EMUs are new builds, then they either a) ought to be sleeper EMUs, or 2) ought to be single carriage length traction units.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's not really relevant to the sleeper anyway - which EMUs have the power to pull a 16 car sleeper and also provide ETS? Let's assume a Pendolino could - what on earth are you going to do with a 25 car formation at Euston or anywhere else?

And if the EMUs are new builds, then they either a) ought to be sleeper EMUs, or 2) ought to be single carriage length traction units.

Oh yeah it's not a plan that works in anyway shape or form for sure.

 

[HSTEd]

It's not really relevant to the sleeper anyway - which EMUs have the power to pull a 16 car sleeper and also provide ETS? Let's assume a Pendolino could - what on earth are you going to do with a 25 car formation at Euston or anywhere else?

And if the EMUs are new builds, then they either a) ought to be sleeper EMUs, or 2) ought to be single carriage length traction units.

In terms of traction power, given the very low performance required to meet the sleeper timetable, I would expect a great many EMU could do the job.

ETS would probably require a new transformer to add a tap for the sleeper ETS supply and additional wiring, but not a fundamental redesign.

The only real limit is whether the EMU has enough tractive effort to get up Shap without stalling. A Class 350 has 2000kW at rail and about 80 tonnes on driven axles.

There is certainly no money for a whole new rolling stock fleet.

 

[Zomboid]

Traction is probably the smallest issue, though whether a 350 would be up to the job is questionable.
ETS and the huge size of the train, especially on arrival at Euston in the morning are more problematic.

 

[Falcon1200]

What variety of EMU do people think would have the capacity to haul 16-coach trains up Shap and Beattock?

 

[signed]

What variety of EMU do people think would have the capacity to haul 16-coach trains up Shap and Beattock?

Extreme crayon but RhB (Rheatische bahn) does operate Allegra 3 cars EMUs as locos for 6 panorama cars, all for the very very hilly Bernina Express.

I do not discount a standard gauge version being able to haul 8 coaches, 16 is of course a major stretch.

 

[Falcon1200]

What exactly would be the benefit of building a new EMU type capable of working the Sleepers rather than just using a loco? This (apparently serious) proposal beats me!

 

[signed]

What exactly would be the benefit of building a new EMU type capable of working the Sleepers rather than just using a loco?

Running that EMU in regular service and you don't have an loco dedicated to it that does only run the sleepers.

That would make that a lot more profitable since you can distribute operating costs and improve rolling stock utilization (much like with low cost airlines). You also don't need micro-fleet of day stock if you wanted that loco to run days.

Crayon if a trimode can be made to do that then you would have the sleeper stock do a Inverness-Edinburgh service all day and then the sleeper. In ideal world, you now have saved running a regular Inter7Cities train.


Even better, remove all seated coaches from the sleeper consist and make seated passengers just use the EMU itself

 

[BlueLeanie]

They simply need to charge more.

BA will charge you up to £1200 for a return business class ticket between EDI and LHR, The Caledonian Sleeper will charge you £335 single for a solo ensuite cabin.

 

[HSTEd]

What exactly would be the benefit of building a new EMU type capable of working the Sleepers rather than just using a loco? This (apparently serious) proposal beats me!

Because locos with little other use impose a significant training and maintenance burden.
They also waste (the restricted) train length at Euston with the associated reductions in achievable capacity and thus income.

Unless they've started propelling the sets into Euston, they both end up wasting two locomotive lengths of platform.

The critical problem with the sleeper is they can't carry enough passengers to make up for the huge costs of running them.

 

[popeter45]

Because locos with little other use impose a significant training and maintenance burden.
They also waste (the restricted) train length at Euston with the associated reductions in achievable capacity and thus income.

Unless they've started propelling the sets into Euston, they both end up wasting two locomotive lengths of platform.

The critical problem with the sleeper is they can't carry enough passengers to make up for the huge costs of running them.

in that regard, splitting the 16 car sets into 8/12 car sets that travel up the WCML separately may be a good thing as would replace the need for complex shunting at Calstairs/Edinburgh, would also allow more flexibility in terms of platform allocations

 

[Zomboid]

And put cabs on either end of each set of 4/8, so the shunt moves at least can be propelled (I can see why you might not want to propel a sleeper with passengers on board, but the shunt moves use a lot of locos).

Fort William gets 4 cars at present doesn't it? I don't know the formation of the trains so I'll just guess... Let's build 4TCs of sleeper cars - 2.5x sleeping, 0.5x facilities/lounge and 1x seated, then run 2 or 3 of them in a longer train where needed. Cabs at either end for shunting and getting to/from stations.

Of course replacing barely used rolling stock so soon won't help the service's economics at all...

 

[ollyexe2808]

Regarding longitudinal flatbed seating, I believe the VY Bergen-Oslo sleeper service has their PlusNight seats which are just that.... wouldn't these be an option for here in the UK on these services?

https://www.vy.no/en/buy-tickets/train-tickets/plusnight

 

[Falcon1200]

Running that EMU in regular service and you don't have an loco dedicated to it that does only run the sleepers.

What regular service could a super-power EMU, capable of hauling heavy sleeper coaches up Shap and Beattock, work on arrival at Euston, Edinburgh and Glasgow Central (once the sleeper vehicles had been disposed to their respective Depots?

Because locos with little other use impose a significant training and maintenance burden.

As would a tiny fleet of extremely powerful and therefore specialised EMUs!

Lets not forget, the only case in the UK of EMUs regularly hauling unpowered stock was the 4REPs, which was only resorted to (imaginatively, it has to be said) because BR could not afford to electrify through to Weymouth. Nowhere else was it ever adopted, and the examples quoted in other countries are to the best of my knowledge very different types of operation; ie does any country anywhere use EMUs to haul its overnight passenger trains?

in that regard, splitting the 16 car sets into 8/12 car sets that travel up the WCML separately may be a good thing as would replace the need for complex shunting at Calstairs/Edinburgh, would also allow more flexibility in terms of platform allocations

And would increase the operating cost of the service even more than it is now.

Given the nature of the operation, sleeper trains are always expensive to operate, for reasons well explained in other posts, so the answer to this thread's question is No. It then becomes up to Government to decide whether the benefits of the service are worth the subsidy it requires.

 

[BlueLeanie]

What regular service could a super-power EMU, capable of hauling heavy sleeper coaches up Shap and Beattock, work on arrival at Euston, Edinburgh and Glasgow Central (once the sleeper vehicles had been disposed to their respective Depots?

A Lumo Service hauling Mk5s.

(Probably need the end-coach rebuilt to allow passage between units).

 

[Falcon1200]

A Lumo Service hauling Mk5s.

Is a Lumo set capable of that? I have my doubts! Plus a 5-car EMU plus 16 coaches is a little long.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Is a Lumo set capable of that? I have my doubts! Plus a 5-car EMU plus 16 coaches is a little long.

I thought the poster was asking what stock a powerful EMU could be diagrammed with daytime when it wasn't hauling Sleeper stock.

 

[Falcon1200]

I thought the poster was asking what stock a powerful EMU could be diagrammed with daytime when it wasn't hauling Sleeper stock.

But the EMU would still have to be able to haul the sleepers! Not to mention issues of how the sleeper stock would be disposed of at the terminals to allow the EMU to couple to its hauled day stock, and indeed how that latter operation would itself be carried out.

 

[signed]

to allow the EMU to couple to its hauled day stock, and indeed how that latter operation would itself be carried out.

The goal with the MU is not have day stock at all, and just run itself

 

[Zomboid]

The trains are already pulled by a powerful unit that could do other work during the day, and one which doesn't take up huge amounts of platform space.

The problem is that they aren't actually used for anything else during the day.

 

[JamesT]

Is a Lumo set capable of that? I have my doubts! Plus a 5-car EMU plus 16 coaches is a little long.

Would you need the sleeper to be that long if you were using an EMU? I was assuming one reason for using an EMU is that you can use its seats instead of the Mk5 seated carriages.

 

[Trainbike46]

Would you need the sleeper to be that long if you were using an EMU? I was assuming one reason for using an EMU is that you can use its seats instead of the Mk5 seated carriages.

The way things are set up, as I understand it, the seated carriage is the only one that can't be missing from a consist! It contains some controls or something?

Though potentially you could turn it into a couchette carriage, and run 4 8-carriage (plus emu) trains instead of the current 2 16-coach trains, and skip the splitting/joining at Carstairs and Edinburgh (though that would involved dropping one of the three highlander destinations, potentially Aberdeen?), but you would get 8 coaches of sleeper stock for each of Fort William and Inverness.

Another potential option would be to see if there are a few spare ex-tpe Mk5 DVTs available, and based on the rumours around Chiltern there might be, and using those to control the locos to eliminate the need for pilots, going to push-pull operation instead. As the pilots are platformed, you should be able to run them as an extra coach, so increase capacity while reducing the amount of locomotives needed.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The goal with the MU is not have day stock at all, and just run itself

You would be surprised at just how many senior people within Caledonian Sleeper, across two different management eras, have told me that they wished the Scottish Government had gone with my suggestion made during the Sleeper stock consultation 12 years ago instead of doing a like for like replacemnt with locomotive hauled stock... It would have more than halved the running costs...

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/27800/mugridge-peter.pdf

With the future of the Scottish sleepers under the spotlight, Peter Mugridge suggests a radical change in how the services could operate…

Sleeper services, in their current format, are a very labour-intensive operation. This is especially true of the ‘Caledonian Sleeper’, where rakes are split and joined to serve different destinations from one service...




...So is it possible to increase flexibility and reduce costs without compromising service levels - and possibly even allow a modest expansion? I believe this can be done by means of a carefully designed purpose-built fleet of Electro-diesel Sleeper Multiple Units (EDSMUs, see page 58). This suggested design avoids the need for extensive shunting movements where services split and join - instead, an EDSMU would be able to make use of auto-coupler technology in much the same way as conventional multiple units, particularly on the former Southern With the future of the Scottish sleepers under the spotlight, PETER MUGRIDGE suggests a radical change in how the services could operate… Region territory. At a stroke this eliminates locomotive hire and reduces the number of shunting staff required (a large element of the fixed costs)

 

[Brubulus]

in general if the sleepers want to be self funding they need to focus on quantity not quality, more hostel on wheels not hotel on wheels

People are willing to pay much more for a hotel on rails than a hostel on rails. 6 person couchettes could pay their way most likely, since they don't require any more space than a 4 person couchettes, while effectively the same price can be charged. However they don't fit.I suspect people would pay more for the privacy of a OBB style capsule. I'd also guess loadings on the seated carriage to Edinburgh have been decimated by the 20.30 lumo service given how much faster it is.

 

[signed]

As a crayon service on united GBR, I can imagine 2 three cars first class-heavy bi or tri mode EMU, hauling 10 sleeper-only coaches one top and one in the middle a la Swiss.

Have the top one do services down the WCML when the sleeper is in Euston, and have both of them do a few Inter7cities services when in Scotland, though 3 cars is very light of course

 

[deltic]

Just run the lowlander via ECML and carry on from Edinburgh to Glasgow which would scrap all the shunting moves and adapt one carriage to a driving van trailer. Scrap the highlander as little demand to Aberdeen and how seasonal is demand to Fort William?

 

[Sorcerer]

Considering the WCML is fully electrified between London, Glasgow and Edinburgh, might it be more pragmatic to just have a set of specially-built eight-coach EMUs for sleeper services that can split easily at Carstairs/Carlisle and run without the need for shunting movements? Have them be a pre-existing design too so that they could easily be converted into a standard passenger train should the need ever arise. Surely it can't be more of a headache than loco-hauled stock? The highlander I am not sure of because you'd need a bi-mode unit to run on non-electrified routes, and the vibrations won't be very comfortable for light sleeping passengers. The sleepers themselves meanwhile should fall under a larger management because they would be very hard to be self-sustaining by themselves and will either need subsidy or feeders from more profitable services.