Cuts and increases to services since 2019

[Magdalia]

From the thread linked in the first post (including some already said), a lot of them previously having been scarce extensions

• Thameslink no longer serves Cambridge North
• Greater Anglia no longer serves King's Lynn or Edmonton Green

As has already been explained, there is a net gain on the Kings Lynn line because Great Northern have replaced all of the Greater Anglia trains and added more.

There was no loss to/from Cambridge North, Greater Anglia trains were extended between Cambridge and Cambridge North to provide same level of service.

Edmonton Green is a net loss in terms of number of trains. The Hertford trains had run via Edmonton Green in the peaks, with Broxbourne trains via the Lea Valley. Effectively these have been combined. There were also adjustments to stopping patterns, particularly at Waltham Cross, Cheshunt and Broxbourne. However, the coincident introduction of class 720s means no loss in capacity.

Cambridge - Welwyn Garden City - London King Cross (the local ones) terminating lots at Letchworth off peak (Local stations Royston - Cambridge) No hourly.

This is an exaggeration, it isn't lots. The only loss is 5 rounds trips terminating at Letchworth in the middle of the day.

 

[Falcon1200]

Edinburgh to Helensburgh Ctl reduced from 4tph to 2tph off peak.

The Edinburgh via Bathgate service was 2tph to Helensburgh and 2tph to Milngavie; The Milngavie trains are now peaks only.

I’m also pretty sure there was at least an hourly Glasgow QS HL to Edinburgh via Cumbernauld pre-Covid.

These now run between Queen St and Falkirk Grahamston only.

 

[The exile]

From the thread linked in the first post (including some already said), a lot of them previously having

• CrossCountry no longer has limited services to Bath, Guildford and Newquay

A bit anal I know, but XC’s very limited Bath service was from rather than to.

 

[Failed Unit]

This is an exaggeration, it isn't lots. The only loss is 5 rounds trips terminating at Letchworth in the middle of the day.

It is very significant when they are at the times I want to travel (granted others may not and I would not debate against 6 tph between Letchworth and Cambridge is probably too many). I counted 8. I could have missed some.

I did forget to mention the removal of the half hourly service between King’s Cross and local stations to Stevenage in the late evening. (Causing a lot of over crowding on the trains that remain and some people to drive to the more frequent midland mainline)

 

[MikeWM]

As has already been explained, there is a net gain on the Kings Lynn line because Great Northern have replaced all of the Greater Anglia trains and added more.

In the May 2019 timetable, KLN had 9 pre-0900 departures on GN (admittedly 2 of those went on to join together at CBG so we could debate if that actually makes it 8 rather than 9), plus 2 GA. So 10 or 11 services in total, depending on how you count them.

Today KLN has 9 pre-0900 GN departures and 0 GA, ie. 9 in total.

KLN has also lost a departure between 0900 and 1000 (2 in 2019, 1 today). Not that I'm complaining because I prefer the 0948 to start at Ely

Of course, there's a net gain of *seats* due to the 8-car extension program. And the departures are very regularly spaced now, so that's probably an improvement too.

There was no loss to/from Cambridge North, Greater Anglia trains were extended between Cambridge and Cambridge North to provide same level of service.

CMB has gone from one 'missing' service in the evening peak to two as a result. There are two 'missing' GA services from Cambridge North to Cambridge, right in the evening peak when people want to travel. In 2019, when the CMB terminators alternated between GA and GN, the GA was missing then too (what should have been the 1814 from Cambridge North) but the GN at 1744 ran, so there was only one 'missing' train.

--

It is very significant when they are at the times I want to travel (granted others may not and I would not debate against 6 tph between Letchworth and Cambridge is probably too many).

I've always thought it is very hard to justify 2tph at Foxton etc. in the off-peak, but it is what Thameslink promised, so it seems reasonable to point out this is a cutback.

 

[Magdalia]

In the May 2019 timetable, KLN had 9 pre-0900 departures on GN (admittedly 2 of those went on to join together at CBG so we could debate if that actually makes it 8 rather than 9), plus 2 GA. So 10 or 11 services in total, depending on how you count them.

Today KLN has 9 pre-0900 GN departures and 0 GA, ie. 9 in total.

KLN has also lost a departure between 0900 and 1000 (2 in 2019, 1 today). Not that I'm complaining because I prefer the 0948 to start at Ely

Of course, there's a net gain of *seats* due to the 8-car extension program. And the departures are very regularly spaced now, so that's probably an improvement too.

You are only looking at it from one end. Going to Kings Lynn in the morning, and coming from Kings Lynn in the evening, has been a significant improvement, because the Greater Anglia trains ran empty.

CMB has gone from one 'missing' service in the evening peak to two as a result. There are two 'missing' GA services from Cambridge North to Cambridge, right in the evening peak when people want to travel. In 2019, when the CMB terminators alternated between GA and GN, the GA was missing then too (what should have been the 1814 from Cambridge North) but the GN at 1744 ran, so there was only one 'missing' train.

More trains from Kings Lynn compensate for this, though it would be better if the hole in the Greater Anglia service was filled.

 

[MikeWM]

You are only looking at it from one end. Going to Kings Lynn in the morning, and coming from Kings Lynn in the evening, has been a significant improvement, because the Greater Anglia trains ran empty.

Aren't the GN ones going to Kings Lynn in the morning also almost empty though? I rarely travel early but I sometimes see the 0956 at Ely and it has barely a handful of passengers on it.

Occasionally I get the 1832 from Cambridge North to Cambridge and that's really quiet too (though quite a lot of people get on at North, as there's been a 32-minute gap in services to Cambridge preceding it).

More trains from Kings Lynn compensate for this, though it would be better if the hole in the Greater Anglia service was filled.

But that doesn't make any real difference at that specific time of the evening.

In 2019 we had 1731 (GN fast to KGX), 1744 (GN stopper to KGX), 1751 (GA ex-Norwich to CBG), 1755 (GN fast to KGX), 1832 (GN fast to KGX), 1850 (GN stopper to KGX), 1854 (GA ex-Norwich to CBG).

Today we have 1732 (GN fast to KGX), 1739 (GA ex-Norwich to CBG), 1800 (GN fast to KGX), 1832 (GN fast to KGX), 1842 (GA stopper to LST), 1850 (GA ex-Norwich to CBG).

The gap between the GN fasts after 1800 has gone down from 37 minutes to 32, but the spread of services in 2019 is otherwise much better (particularly between 1730 and 1800). Today, if the 1800 is cancelled or seriously delayed, there's almost an hour's gap in the evening peak.

Yes, if GA ever fill in the missing services, the timetable would be fine, but I wonder if/when that will happen.

 

[Magdalia]

Aren't the GN ones going to Kings Lynn in the morning also almost empty though?

I'm not up that early, but I do use the trains starting from Kings Lynn in the 1640-2040 period. What we have now is a significant improvement.

Yes, if GA ever fill in the missing services, the timetable would be fine, but I wonder if/when that will happen.

I agree that GA should have a train starting from Cambridge North between 1800 and 1830.

 

[Kite159]

Edinburgh to Helensburgh Ctl reduced from 4tph to 2tph off peak.

Wasn't it 2tph to Helensburgh & 2 tph to Milngavie (giving 4tph Bathgate - Edinburgh and 6tph (with varying stops) Airdrie - Glasgow Queen Street?

 

[bramling]

In the May 2019 timetable, KLN had 9 pre-0900 departures on GN (admittedly 2 of those went on to join together at CBG so we could debate if that actually makes it 8 rather than 9), plus 2 GA. So 10 or 11 services in total, depending on how you count them.

Today KLN has 9 pre-0900 GN departures and 0 GA, ie. 9 in total.

KLN has also lost a departure between 0900 and 1000 (2 in 2019, 1 today). Not that I'm complaining because I prefer the 0948 to start at Ely

Of course, there's a net gain of *seats* due to the 8-car extension program. And the departures are very regularly spaced now, so that's probably an improvement too.



CMB has gone from one 'missing' service in the evening peak to two as a result. There are two 'missing' GA services from Cambridge North to Cambridge, right in the evening peak when people want to travel. In 2019, when the CMB terminators alternated between GA and GN, the GA was missing then too (what should have been the 1814 from Cambridge North) but the GN at 1744 ran, so there was only one 'missing' train.

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I've always thought it is very hard to justify 2tph at Foxton etc. in the off-peak, but it is what Thameslink promised, so it seems reasonable to point out this is a cutback.

On balance I’d say the current Kings Lynn service is better, simply because there now isn’t the fuss of services having to combine or add carriages (except to make 12 cars) at Cambridge. This was a massive source of unreliability before. It’s also now consistent.

Where Kings Lynn *has* lost is in terms of a reduction in the number of services running as 12 cars inwards of Cambridge, however I don’t use the services so can’t comment on whether this causes crowding issues.

 

[dk1]

On balance I’d say the current Kings Lynn service is better, simply because there now isn’t the fuss of services having to combine or add carriages (except to make 12 cars) at Cambridge. This was a massive source of unreliability before. It’s also now consistent.

Where Kings Lynn *has* lost is in terms of a reduction in the number of services running as 12 cars inwards of Cambridge, however I don’t use the services so can’t comment on whether this causes crowding issues.

Totally agree. Also the fact that all are now 8-cars where previously they could only be used on limited stop (Downham only I recall) services. The GA (NXEA) trains that continued to Lynn in the evening always had poor loadings compared to their GN (FCC) counterparts.

 

[scrapy]

This is incorrect, the last pre-Covid timetable had;

Northern:
1tph to Manchester Victoria
1tph to Southport

TPE:
1tph Huddersfield to Manchester Piccadilly (plus rush hour extras)
1tph Hull to Manchester Piccadilly
1tph Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street

So that was 2 Northern Trains to Victoria and 1 TPE, exactly what I said. Still 3tph between Stalybridge and Victoria. The Huddersfield to Piccadilly and Hull to Piccadilly didn't go to Victoria.

The 2 trains per hour to Piccadilly is the pretty much same service level as today, just that the Hull service has been replaced with York via Wakefield east of the pennines.

 

[MikeWM]

I'm not up that early, but I do use the trains starting from Kings Lynn in the 1640-2040 period. What we have now is a significant improvement.

Looking at the May 2019 timetable again - yes, agreed, the up evening service is much better now than then.

I agree that GA should have a train starting from Cambridge North between 1800 and 1830.

It would be very helpful. As - in the other direction - would be if GA's Ely service, that passes non-stop (for no apparent reason) through CMB at 1822, actually stopped there.

--

On balance I’d say the current Kings Lynn service is better, simply because there now isn’t the fuss of services having to combine or add carriages (except to make 12 cars) at Cambridge. This was a massive source of unreliability before. It’s also now consistent.

Where Kings Lynn *has* lost is in terms of a reduction in the number of services running as 12 cars inwards of Cambridge, however I don’t use the services so can’t comment on whether this causes crowding issues.

Yes, I'd agree that the consistency is a big improvement.

I can't speak for earlier services, but the 0948 from Ely (which started back from KLN in 2019) picks up a lot of passengers at CMB and then a lot more at CBG. While I'm usually getting off at CMB, the few times I've got this service all the way to KGX it has been full and standing from Cambridge. This was due to go to 12 cars in the May 2020 timetable, quite probably it needs to do so now too.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So that was 2 Northern Trains to Victoria and 1 TPE, exactly what I said. Still 3tph between Stalybridge and Victoria. The Huddersfield to Piccadilly and Hull to Piccadilly didn't go to Victoria.

The 2 trains per hour to Piccadilly is the pretty much same service level as today, just that the Hull service has been replaced with York via Wakefield east of the pennines.

Agreed on victoria.

But I think Piccadilly is hourly off peak and only half hourly during peaks. York to Piccadilly runs all day with a few peak extras chucked in Piccadilly to Huddersfield only.

 

[NorthLondoner]

Southern Metro:

London Victoria to Sutton/Epsom Downs via Norbury: 4tph to 2tph. Still runs 4tph in the peaks with some additional morning peak journeys towards Victoria.

London Victoria to Horsham/Dorking/Epsom via Hackbridge: 4tph to 2tph. There are also some additional trains in the peaks, but runs flows only.

London Bridge to Norwood Junction: 2tph to it's service withdrawn. It's recently partially been reinstated with only some peak journeys running.

 

[saismee]

Totally agree. Also the fact that all are now 8-cars where previously they could only be used on limited stop (Downham only I recall) services. The GA (NXEA) trains that continued to Lynn in the evening always had poor loadings compared to their GN (FCC) counterparts.

I feel that if GA still operated services to King's Lynn then it'd have much better connectivity with Norwich and Ipswich services from Cambridge and Ely. As it stands, the Ipswich to Peterborough service arrives and departs 56 (I think?) minutes before the next connection to King's Lynn. Perfect going to Ipswich, atrocious going back... change at Cambridge if you take this journey! Norwich to King's Lynn is just better (and so much cheaper) by bus.

As someone who travels between these stations (King's Lynn, Norwich, Ipswich) frequently, the awful connections make the journey up to an hour longer than it needs to be... and that's if the GN service is even running on time .

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

It would be very helpful. As - in the other direction - would be if GA's Ely service, that passes non-stop (for no apparent reason) through CMB at 1822, actually stopped there.

I think this is because of the 1822 Cambridge to Cambridge North service. There's also the 1922, and the 1919 from Cambridge to Ely doesn't stop at Cambridge North either

 

[The Ham]

Then there are a few cuts out of Waterloo, Portsmouth direct line and the Poole semifasts cut back to Winchester/Southampton, for example.

Not sure which service it was linked with but off Peak Farnborough Main has 3tph when it used to have 4tph.

 

[dk1]

I feel that if GA still operated services to King's Lynn then it'd have much better connectivity with Norwich and Ipswich services from Cambridge and Ely. As it stands, the Ipswich to Peterborough service arrives and departs 56 (I think?) minutes before the next connection to King's Lynn. Perfect going to Ipswich, atrocious going back... change at Cambridge if you take this journey! Norwich to King's Lynn is just better (and so much cheaper) by bus.

As someone who travels between these stations (King's Lynn, Norwich, Ipswich) frequently, the awful connections make the journey up to an hour longer than it needs to be... and that's if the GN service is even running on time .

GA only ever ran in peak hours so made very little difference during the day and at weekends. Also constrained by the single line sections. Hopefully improvements will come if Ely North Jcn gets redoubled so Lynn services can go half-hourly all day.

 

[Kite159]

Not sure which service it was linked with but off Peak Farnborough Main has 3tph when it used to have 4tph.

Farnborough used to be served by the Poole 'stopper' which got cut back to Winchester.

 

[saismee]

GA only ever ran in peak hours so made very little difference during the day and at weekends. Also constrained by the single line sections. Hopefully improvements will come if Ely North Jcn gets redoubled so Lynn services can go half-hourly all day.

I can't really see the demand for that. It would be very nice though. Would that also improve the services via Thetford?

If there's anywhere I'd like to see improvements, it's anywhere on the East Suffolk Lines. The Lowestoft services have such an odd running pattern, and the Felixstowe services would probably benefit from half-hourly during some summers.

 

[dk1]

I can't really see the demand for that. It would be very nice though. Would that also improve the services via Thetford?

If there's anywhere I'd like to see improvements, it's anywhere on the East Suffolk Lines. The Lowestoft services have such an odd running pattern, and the Felixstowe services would probably benefit from half-hourly during some summers.

Blimey the East Suffolk line has never had it so good. You do realise it was 2 hourly until a few years ago when Beccles loop was installed. How do you improve frequency with the single line sections across thar route? Felixstowe is fine hourly. Only busy on sunny warm days. Yes, Norwich to Cambridge likely to ho hourly too.

 

[saismee]

Blimey the East Suffolk line has never had it so good. You do realise it was 2 hourly until a few years ago when Beccles loop was installed. How do you improve frequency with the single line sections across thar route? Felixstowe is fine hourly. Only busy on sunny warm days. Yes, Norwich to Cambridge likely to ho hourly too.

Oh I know it's better for sure (and even better with the capacity from the FLIRTs), but the departure times to Lowestoft seem very odd, with long turnarounds (17:17 for example). I imagine the odd pattern is due to how the services change into Norwich ones. Felixstowe is fine yes, always plenty of seating but could do with an extra service depending on weather. It's all hopeful ideas, of course the stock and lines are already stretched thin. I'd imagine half-hourly peak would be possible with electrification because of the improved acceleration. Also can't forget that Ipswich platforms might be a little overwhelmed with more services.

My ideal would be half-hourly peak Felixstowe services, as well as more in summer, consistent hourly Lowestoft services, 7-8 coach Cambridge and Peterborough peak services, hourly Peterborough of course. Peterborough, Cambridge, and Ipswich platforms would all need upgrades for this though. Could theoretically replace the carriage sidings with two more bay platforms, though I doubt we will ever see that happening unless the government stumbles upon an extra trillion pounds...

 

[Magdalia]

the departure times to Lowestoft seem very odd, with long turnarounds (17:17 for example).

I can't see anything odd here, it fits with the normal hourly pattern.

The exception is the previous train which starts from Ipswich at 1616 SO but 1554 SX. My guess is this is for school traffic. 0656 Ipswich-Cambridge is another that runs different from the normal hourly pattern to cater for school traffic.

My ideal would be half-hourly peak Felixstowe services, as well as more in summer

This isn't going to happen because of all of the intermodal traffic to and from the port. There is no line capacity for a more frequent passenger service.

7-8 coach Cambridge and Peterborough peak services

I'm all in favour of increasing capacity by running longer trains, but it does need more trains!

 

[saismee]

I can't see anything odd here, it fits with the normal hourly pattern.

The exception is the previous train which starts from Ipswich at 1616 SO but 1554 SX. My guess is this is for school traffic. 0656 Ipswich-Cambridge is another that runs different from the normal hourly pattern to cater for school traffic.

It's probably the 1554 that's tripping me up. It's a much longer gap on weekdays between the 1554 and the 1717.

This isn't going to happen because of all of the intermodal traffic to and from the port. There is no line capacity for a more frequent passenger service.

Not without double-tracking at least, but I'm thinking of an ideal case!

I'm all in favour of increasing capacity by running longer trains, but it does need more trains!

I would certainly like frequency, but capacity can be an issue at some times. There's a specific evening peak Cambridge to Ipswich train that is absolutely FULL after Bury St Edmunds, no standing room. The problem is that everyone wants to get home as early as possible, so it seems that capacity is better than frequency here. Peterborough services have run as >4 car before (very recently with football), including extending to Colchester. I believe there was an extra Ipswich to Bury St Edmunds service too during this. There's a bit more room for capacity, but not enough to justify it permanently without upgrades first.

 

[dk1]

Oh I know it's better for sure (and even better with the capacity from the FLIRTs), but the departure times to Lowestoft seem very odd, with long turnarounds (17:17 for example). I imagine the odd pattern is due to how the services change into Norwich ones. Felixstowe is fine yes, always plenty of seating but could do with an extra service depending on weather. It's all hopeful ideas, of course the stock and lines are already stretched thin. I'd imagine half-hourly peak would be possible with electrification because of the improved acceleration. Also can't forget that Ipswich platforms might be a little overwhelmed with more services.



My ideal would be half-hourly peak Felixstowe services, as well as more in summer, consistent hourly Lowestoft services, 7-8 coach Cambridge and Peterborough peak services, hourly Peterborough of course. Peterborough, Cambridge, and Ipswich platforms would all need upgrades for this though. Could theoretically replace the carriage sidings with two more bay platforms, though I doubt we will ever see that happening unless the government stumbles upon an extra trillion pounds...

All good ideas as you say but very expensive if you try to alter infrastructure.

Also the priority for East Suffolk services is to connect into/out of London services at Ipswich. In excess of 100 passengers can frequently transfer between the two. This amongst conflicting moves dictates the departure times. The next priority is at the Lowestoft end for connecting/swapping into the Norwich services.

Also you cannot do much about the off-pattern 15:54(SX) Ipswich to Lowestoft as a path must be maintained should the Sizewell nuclear flask run.

 

[Class15]

Also you cannot do much about the off-pattern 15:54(SX) Ipswich to Lowestoft as a path must be maintained should the Sizewell nuclear flask run.

Is that the 17:04 from Saxmundham? It still had a great connection onto a London train at Norwich so it’s not such a disaster!

Edit: apologies I’m thinking of a service going towards Ipswich.

 

[A S Leib]

Is the only change in Northern Ireland since 2019, apart from Grand Central replacing Great Victoria Street, Enterprise increasing from 1tp2h to hourly?

 

[saismee]

Also the priority for East Suffolk services is to connect into/out of London services at Ipswich. In excess of 100 passengers can frequently transfer between the two. This amongst conflicting moves dictates the departure times. The next priority is at the Lowestoft end for connecting/swapping into the Norwich services.

Absolutely. If only the direct Lowestoft train still ran! Don't think we'll ever see that again, though

Also you cannot do much about the off-pattern 15:54(SX) Ipswich to Lowestoft as a path must be maintained should the Sizewell nuclear flask run.

That makes complete sense. It's the only time I tend to travel through Ipswich so I've only witnessed the odd 15:54 departures. The only real issue I have with the 17:17 is that it always displays "Ipswich" as the destination while sitting in the platform for 40 minutes. I understand that it's not necessarily the previous driver's job to change it, but combining the awkward placement of platform 1, the awkward placement of the only information screen (all the way down the buffer end), and the long turnaround, the result is people (usually elderly people) wandering around the train trying to figure out whether it is the one they want or not!

 

[dk1]

Absolutely. If only the direct Lowestoft train still ran! Don't think we'll ever see that again, though


That makes complete sense. It's the only time I tend to travel through Ipswich so I've only witnessed the odd 15:54 departures. The only real issue I have with the 17:17 is that it always displays "Ipswich" as the destination while sitting in the platform for 40 minutes. I understand that it's not necessarily the previous driver's job to change it, but combining the awkward placement of platform 1, the awkward placement of the only information screen (all the way down the buffer end), and the long turnaround, the result is people (usually elderly people) wandering around the train trying to figure out whether it is the one they want or not!

Some of us look up the next departure headcode but it’s not part of our job. Just that some (like myself) are a tad more conscientious than others.

I don’t think we’ll ever see through services onto the ES anytime soon. Inheriting any delays onto such a constrained single line route with the frequency it has nowadays is a recipe for disaster I’m afraid.