London midland 150's

[newtownmgr]

London Midland are hoping to keep 3 x 2 car 150 plus 7/8 x 153.

1 x 150 Bed - Bletch. 1 x 150 Hfd - B'ham, 1 spare.

1 x 153 Bed - Bletch + 1 spare (bletch), 1 x 153 Nun - Cov. 1 x 153 Hfd - B'ham with 150, 1 or 2 153's New st - Rug (with 170). The rest spare.

The 150/153 combo on Hfd - B'ham is to enable Worcester drivers to maintain traction knowledge as they relieve Bletchley drivers on a friday night at New st to take the Bed - Bletch set's to from Tyseley on swap over.

Unable to use 2 x 153's together on Bedford route due to platform lengths
which also preclude the use of 170 or 172 units.

If LM unable to keep any 150's or 153's it could be interesting times ahead
at Bletchley.

 

[DarloRich]

They dont often leave the spare unit on the apron at Bletchley.

We might get a pacer at this rate!

 

[Pumbaa]

Unable to use 2 x 153's together on Bedford route due to platform lengths
which also preclude the use of 170 or 172 units.

It's odd that - NR specifically undertook work last year to enable Bed - Bletchley handle 2x23m carriages, ie for a 2car 172 or 2 153.

 

[Nym]

Why don't they just do what they do on short platforms in South Yorkshire (Snaith and Rawcliffe)...

SDO!

Or... guard opens end door off platform, everyone uses other doors...

Or as had been said, a pair of pacers?

Hand it over to EMT and they can use 153s or 156s on the route?

Either way, I don't want to see a microfleet of 150s at LM, and don't see any real problems with using the 153s, in a pair if needed on the route, with the guard at the back door and suitable announcments. Or does this only work oop norf in the back-o-beyond?

 

[Wolf_359]

It's odd that - NR specifically undertook work last year to enable Bed - Bletchley handle 2x23m carriages, ie for a 2car 172 or 2 153.

They did a lot of work for the re-signalling including moving & rebuilding certain platforms. But there are still some of the old short platforms left & some of the platforms had signal placed on them which shortened them.

The short platforms are (These only just fit a 150):
Bow Brickhill - Up/Down
Woburn Sands - Down (Signal Placement has shortened the platform)
Aspley Guise - Down
Ridgemont - Down (Signal Placement has shortened the platform)
Stewartby - Down
Kempston Hardwick - Up/Down
Bedford St. Johns

As you can see it's not all of them. The use of a 2 car 153 was investigated but it was decided that due to the amount of school children using it, the dwell times would be too great just using one local door. Which is the only way that the train could be worked under local instructions.

 

[northwichcat]

It's odd that - NR specifically undertook work last year to enable Bed - Bletchley handle 2x23m carriages, ie for a 2car 172 or 2 153.

A 2 car 172 can be used at a shorter platform than a 2 car 153, due to the position of the passenger doors not being right at the end of the carriages.

 

[DarloRich]

They did a lot of work for the re-signalling including moving & rebuilding certain platforms. But there are still some of the old short platforms left & some of the platforms had signal placed on them which shortened them.

The short platforms are (These only just fit a 150):
Bow Brickhill - Up/Down
Woburn Sands - Down (Signal Placement has shortened the platform)
Aspley Guise - Down
Ridgemont - Down (Signal Placement has shortened the platform)
Stewartby - Down
Kempston Hardwick - Up/Down
Bedford St. Johns

As you can see it's not all of them. The use of a 2 car 153 was investigated but it was decided that due to the amount of school children using it, the dwell times would be too great just using one local door. Which is the only way that the train could be worked under local instructions.

The longest platform is at Fenny Stratford (other than Bedford Midland and Bletchley (platform 6)) those listed above are VERY tight. With the 150 the drivers window is just about level with the signal post. I have got off at some on the platform ramp if the driver gets the stopping point wrong by the smallest degree.

There is also the curve at Bedford St Johns to consider. Also many of the stations have an level crossing right on the platform ends.

EMT cant (surely) run the service with a 156 as i doubt that would fit either! It is also quite a way out of thier franchise area. To me this line has to be run by either FCC or LM, but any company will see this as an apendix.

 

[Batman]

Electrification of the Valley Lines? That's a bit far off.

But going back to the West Midlands. It would be handy if LM did retain one or two 150's or did use some of the 26 options they have for extra 172's. An extra unit is needed in the morning peak on the Chase Line. Ever since December 2008, the 0739 Hednesford - New Street (operated by a 3 car 170) has called at all local stations south of Walsall. Before then it used to run semi-fast into New Street 4 minutes ahead of a local stopper from Walsall. There has been talk of re-introducing the 5th high peak hour service from Walsall and Tame Bridge to New Street, but there was no mantion of it in the draft RUS.

Although it did talk about all Walsall - Birmingham stopping services currently opperated by DMU's being EMU opperated by 2019. This is relivent because the 0739 Hednesford - Birmingham service forms the 0847 New Street to Walsall stopper and then the 0930 Walsall - New Street stopper before returning to Tysley.

 

[Nym]

Electrification of the Valley Lines? That's a bit far off.

But going back to the West Midlands. It would be handy if LM did retain one or two 150's or did use some of the 26 options they have for extra 172's. An extra unit is needed in the morning peak on the Chase Line. Ever since December 2008, the 0739 Hednesford - New Street (operated by a 3 car 170) has called at all local stations south of Walsall. Before then it used to run semi-fast into New Street 4 minutes ahead of a local stopper from Walsall. There has been talk of re-introducing the 5th high peak hour service from Walsall and Tame Bridge to New Street, but there was no mantion of it in the draft RUS.

The valley lines is actaually more likely to happen if the WAG stumps up the cash, it would be much more benifical to the pepole of Wales than the WAG Express.

That and the WAG seems to like publicity stunts at the minute.

Would be intresting to know how much the Valley Lines would cost to wire compared to the cost of some of their other publicity stunts. How many years of no WAG Express would you need to pay for the Valley Lines, more importantly there is the Cost/Benifit ratio of the routes on their own, add in the political effects of investment in public transport in the Cardiff area and I'd recon the WAG is onto a winner.

It would mean that all the pacers with ATW would be gone, Booths of Rotherham seems to be a good home for them...

The Thames Trains trains would be able to find a home round Bristol and then all the pacers and a lot of the 150s would be able to leave FGW, or the 153s, or somthing, would be able to go to Northernland to get rid of some more pacers. But if the 2019 deadline is to be met, there needs to be much more electrification or some new diesels ordered.

 

[jamie_]

Well if there are so many issues, then why do they want to keep 150001 and 150002, they definatly won't fit..

Im sure the fuel tanks on the 2 prototype 150s are smaller and couldnt fit in with a standard 150/1-2 fleet in say Northern since you would have to tailor diagrams to fit, so FGW and Northern may not want them even if it does give a nice 3 car unit.....

I await to be stood corrected

 

[Techniquest]

1 x 150 Bed - Bletch. 1 x 150 Hfd - B'ham, 1 spare.

The 150/153 combo on Hfd - B'ham is to enable Worcester drivers to maintain traction knowledge as they relieve Bletchley drivers on a friday night at New st to take the Bed - Bletch set's to from Tyseley on swap over.

I was going to ask why that was with regards to the 150s for Hereford to Birmingham services, until I read further on and saw the following part. Can't say I knew about the crewing issues there, how often do the sets swap on the Marston Vale? Daily, every other day?

Should be interesting to see what happens next though, and I must admit to being interested in the 150 and 153 combination from Hereford. It's been a few years since I last had a 150 from/to Hereford with CT!

 

[Batman]

I've used the Birmingham - Hereford line a few times of the past 3 or 4 years due to family having a holiday home out on the Welsh border. I've only ever seen 2 or 3 car 170's opperate that route except for a couple of times. Once the train was a 170 - 153 combi (I think that was on a Saturday), and once when I caught a Friday evening rush hour train out of New Street that was formed of 4 coaches, skipped the stop at Bromsgrove and split at Worcester Shrub Hill.

I thought 158's were the main traction on that line in the old CT days. And wan't there a point (I don't know exactly how long ago it was, but it was obversly after 1995) when most (if not all) Hereford trains ran into Snow Hill instead of New Street? I bet those trains were mainly opperated by 150's.

 

[Techniquest]

Yes indeed, the mainstay for CT services was 150s until the early 2000s and I too am sure they all went via Kidderminster (why I don't know) but I have a feeling at least some of them went into Birmingham New Street.

Been a while since the 153 and 170 combinations on Hereford services now, last saw that in December 2009 myself.

 

[Batman]

I have no idea why those trains ever ran via Kidderminster.

I can only guess that back then, Bromsgrove was served by a New Street - Worcester service. Or was that peak time only and Bromsgroved was served in the off-peak by stops in the Nottingham - Cardiff service?

 

[Techniquest]

Not really sure to be honest, it's going back before I took a keen interest in the railway. Hopefully someone will know on here.

 

[Class172]

I know - but I can't say know as it'll take too long to type on my iPod - and I have to catch the train

 

[Batman]

It's official, Cannock Chase district council have agreed to fund the existing level of service on the Chase Line untill December 2014. I guess that this includes the extra evening and Saturday services to Rugeley that were introduced in December 2014, but will not inculde the extra weekday off peak services that were withdrawn last year.

So this settles the matter for anyone who was still wondering that spending cuts might lead to further service reductions on this line. Now we need to hope that the 153's arrive back soon so that LM can end the situation where high peak trains are being opperated with just 2 coaches. Is there any news on when the Walsall area and Chase Line re-sginaling is due to start?

 

[fgwrich]

It's official, Cannock Chase district council have agreed to fund the existing level of service on the Chase Line untill December 2014. I guess that this includes the extra evening and Saturday services to Rugeley that were introduced in December 2014, but will not inculde the extra weekday off peak services that were withdrawn last year.

So this settles the matter for anyone who was still wondering that spending cuts might lead to further service reductions on this line. Now we need to hope that the 153's arrive back soon so that LM can end the situation where high peak trains are being opperated with just 2 coaches. Is there any news on when the Walsall area and Chase Line re-sginaling is due to start?

Sorry, Services that were introduced in December 2014 - Can i borrow your time machine too?

 

[12CSVT]

The longest platform is at Fenny Stratford (other than Bedford Midland and Bletchley (platform 6)) those listed above are VERY tight. With the 150 the drivers window is just about level with the signal post. I have got off at some on the platform ramp if the driver gets the stopping point wrong by the smallest degree.

There is also the curve at Bedford St Johns to consider. Also many of the stations have an level crossing right on the platform ends.

EMT cant (surely) run the service with a 156 as i doubt that would fit either! It is also quite a way out of thier franchise area. To me this line has to be run by either FCC or LM, but any company will see this as an apendix.

Will the 172/2s have selective door opening ?

It seems bizarre that the platforms on the Marston Vale line are a fraction too short to take 2x153 or a 156, considering the amount of money spent on renewing the infrastructure a few years ago.

 

[Nym]

Will the 172/2s have selective door opening ?

It seems bizarre that the platforms on the Marston Vale line are a fraction too short to take 2x153 or a 156, considering the amount of money spent on renewing the infrastructure a few years ago.

The units should have a manual kind of SDO where the individual doors are locked off with a carrage key, it would need a "Door out of use" sticker on it, perhaps it could be specified if the options are excersised for door by door SDO

 

[newtownmgr]

172's are fitted with sdo but it is a different operation to 170's. So like the 170/1 & 170/5 sdo systems, which worked opposite ways to each other. You would think coming from the same manucaturer the method of operation would be the same but obviously not.

Prior to central trains taking over mml 170/1's sdo was used by CT but they stopped using it due to potential problems when ex mml & ct units coupled together. Suspect if 172 & 170 are used together sdo operation will not be permitted. The only guards that will use both types of sdo will be Worcester
Guards with 170's Hfd -B'ham & 172's on the Dark Side(Snow Hill Lines).

172338 was supposed to have arrived on Monday but had still not arrived by yesterday. If anybody knows whats happened to it a posting would be nice.

2 units are supposed to go to Worcester for training (2 units required so that
coupling up can be done & door connections practised)but before they arrive at least one set of points need to be replaced due to gauging issues.

 

[Batman]

Sorry, Services that were introduced in December 2014 - Can i borrow your time machine too?

Sorry, typing error.

This story was in the Cannock and Rugeley Chronical the other day. The decision may have somthing to do with Labour recetly forming a minority addmisitration on Cannock Chase District Council. It was formally run by a minority Lib Dem addministration since 2002.

Do you know when the Chase Line and Walsall area resignaing project is due to get under way and what exactly NR have planned for it?

 

[Class172]

Anyone know exactly when 172s will reach Worcester? I've asked before but didn't get a definitive answer

 

[MCR247]

And you expect to get a definative answer now?!

When they're in service would be a logical answer...

 

[Class172]

Yes, but I thought they had to be tested here and the Worcester guards etc had to learn the different duties (coupling units etc). I may be wrong

 

[newtownmgr]

172's will reach Worcester for training as & when the work required on the depot has been done. LM have known about this problem for months but have not done anything yet so don't expect any change soon!. Worcester is
the biggest depot to learn these units at present with the same amount of drivers as Snow Hill,Leamington & Tyseley(depot drivers) combined so you think they would want to get cracking with Worcester asap but there seems to be no rush from LM to do so. 172's cannot be introduced on Snow Hill lines until all depots are trained as every unit diagram at some point includes all depots. The only route they can be introduced on without involving multiple depots is Hfd - New St but as the depot working that service is Worcester that ain't going to happen. Suspect the way it is going most the 172's will stay at Derby for a while yet & 150's stay at LM.

 

[crazydave1988]

Suspect the way it is going most the 172's will stay at Derby for a while yet & 150's stay at LM.

Hopefully the 172s shouldn't be too long though...from what I've seen the 150s are suffering from a fair few faults recently, with lots of shortforming, and a second 153 out today to make a 150/1 up to three cars.

 

[newtownmgr]

2 x 2 car 150's off to FGW on loan for summer hols, so any shortages will only get worse.

 

[Class172]

2 x 2 car 150's off to FGW on loan for summer hols, so any shortages will only get worse.

Which ones are they?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Good chance they will not return!!!!!