When does a railtour become unviable to run?

[crewmeal]

Having just had a disappointment with the cancellation of the Severn Forth trip organsided by the Railway Touring Company, due to lack of interest, is this the normal way operators work? If so how can you tell if you are going or not? With the thought of cancellation right up to the night before then it worries me about booking up. This is my 6th cancellation in 5 years of tours.

 

[scotsman]

Having just had a disappointment with the cancellation of the Severn Forth trip organsided by the Railway Touring Company, due to lack of interest, is this the normal way operators work? If so how can you tell if you are going or not? With the thought of cancellation right up to the night before then it worries me about booking up. This is my 6th cancellation in 5 years of tours.

Railtours are not a profitable business model - crew costs are high (you'll find most Stewards are volunteers - either for a charity operation or are 'paid' by way of free tea/coffee/bacon rolls and travel on the tour), hiring 2 or 3 pairs of Drivers and Guards can be very expensive, as are costs for an operator (I heard £2000/day quoted to hire from WCRC)

There will be a line that will be drawn by the tour company, on how much will have to have been taken for the tour to go ahead - if it loses money or breaks even, it's very unlikely to happen.

 

[junglejames]

£2000 seems quite cheap. Surely that doesnt include Stock, locos, fuel, drivers and guards?

 

[philjo]

UK Railtours have a pledge in their brochure saying that they will never cancel a tour due to lack of bookings.

They sometimes add an additional destination option/pick up point nearer the time to gain extra bookings.

 

[yorkie]

Having just had a disappointment with the cancellation of the Severn Forth trip organsided by the Railway Touring Company, due to lack of interest, is this the normal way operators work? If so how can you tell if you are going or not? With the thought of cancellation right up to the night before then it worries me about booking up. This is my 6th cancellation in 5 years of tours.

The only way to be sure of not having the trip cancelled is to book with an operator that is reliable and has a policy of not doing short notice cancellations. If they say they may cancel at short notice, then don't agree to the terms and don't book with them. Otherwise, it's a risk* you take.

* From the point of view of potentially AP tickets, accommodation etc - unless the tour departs from a local station.

 

[Yew]

Im guessing a steward is more of a first class host than a guard? (maybe something to do with slamdoors?) If so, I would do that for a free ride giving out tea and biscuits on some nice old stock

 

[Chester025]

£2000 seems quite cheap. Surely that doesnt include Stock, locos, fuel, drivers and guards?

More like £20000.

 

[yorkie]

Im guessing a steward is more of a first class host than a guard? (maybe something to do with slamdoors?) If so, I would do that for a free ride giving out tea and biscuits on some nice old stock

A steward obviously deals with customer service issues, yes. That could include being a First Class host. Or it could involve less 'glamorous' duties such as collecting litter. It may also involve being on the stock for around 36 hours. It can also involve diffusing arguments, and telling people off for smoking, some of whom can get abusive.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I Do find it disapointing when one of these tours are cancelled very close to the date of travel.

 

[table38]

I was on a tour that was cancelled on the day it ran!

We were due to go to Whitby (Compass Tours 24th Sep 2010) but on joining the train at Ashton-under-Lyne we were told that there was no driver to take us on to the Whitby leg and instead we'd have 5 hours in York

Because the train had started at Crewe and picked up at stations via Runcorn and Liverpool, a lot of people had bailed already.

However I do remember getting a cheque for a full refund, so ended up with a free trip to York!

 

[Scotrail84]

Railtours are not a profitable business model - crew costs are high (you'll find most Stewards are volunteers - either for a charity operation or are 'paid' by way of free tea/coffee/bacon rolls and travel on the tour), hiring 2 or 3 pairs of Drivers and Guards can be very expensive, as are costs for an operator (I heard £2000/day quoted to hire from WCRC)

There will be a line that will be drawn by the tour company, on how much will have to have been taken for the tour to go ahead - if it loses money or breaks even, it's very unlikely to happen.

Out of interest where do they get the guards from?? Its always something ive fancied since im already a guard. Is it an easy job to get into or is it a spot hire process?

 

[TEW]

Guards will come from whichever TOC is operating the train. WCRC and DBS both have guards which work on tours.

 

[scotsman]

Out of interest where do they get the guards from?? Its always something ive fancied since im already a guard. Is it an easy job to get into or is it a spot hire process?

Mate, I'd get on to WCRC directly - I'm aware that their Traction Inspector is also a Driver with Virgin. You might be able to get some work on the side...

EDIT: Guards come from charter operators and spot hire companies: WCRC, DRS, DBS and the like.

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Im guessing a steward is more of a first class host than a guard? (maybe something to do with slamdoors?) If so, I would do that for a free ride giving out tea and biscuits on some nice old stock

It is recommended that on non-CDL stock with slamdoors there should be at least one Steward to operate the secondary door locking (a £5 B&Q bolt-lock).

On some tours all Stewards do is hand out timetables and collect litter (Compass/Spitfire), while on others they also serve meals among other duties (SRPS ). Stewards may or may not have evacuation or first aid training - I doubt many do, I don't. They are not necessarily safety critical, and if they are then full training is given (literally opening, closing and locking the doors) - I've yet to hear of a medical for a Steward.

You may need a uniform/to be smartly dressed, it varies between operators and is rarely strict. (SRPS has a uniform policy - I still see Stewards without ties contrary to policy, it's not an issue; Spitfire issues a yellow hi-vis only, as far as I know - wear what you like!)

Anything else you want to know about it, just send me a PM and I'll endeavour to answer as best I can (or ask someone a bit more clued up!)

 

[91101]

To add to the discussion above, the charter market is one that you wouldnt touch with a barge pole from a busines perspective, its very much a niche market and one which very much, and correctly so, comes secondary to the operational railway, but that means that it means that it can massively impact on the relability of the tour promoter.

Roughly you are looking at between 18-20k for a full package of safety case, crew, stock, track access and a basic locomotive. Those costs go astronomical when you start doing midpoint loco changes, using heritage traction etc.

Getting the right supliers here is crticial and forming a mature relationship with them is essential or you'll fail straight off. Within of the world of spot hire TOC's etc theres a number of rather shall we say interesting characters, and getting someone on side from within them is so important, if they dont have respect for you on a business level, they will rip it out of you, and charge you an arm and a leg more than they should.

Then you have your own costs as the promoter, any staff you might need to run your operation if you're one of the big ones, and then theres distributing and manufacture of tickets etc, as well as marketing costs. Putting a tour on a couple of forums is not enough to get bums on seats!

 

[tnxrail]

It looks like another tour has been cancelled that day to Pathfinder tours The Northumbrian Explorer, just if no one knows yet.

 

[crewmeal]

I almost booked my party on that as well. No more trips through Birmingham until Oct as far as I can see.

Thanks pathfinders & RTC

 

[scotsman]

I almost booked my party on that as well. No more trips through Birmingham until Oct as far as I can see.

Thanks pathfinders & RTC

At least they tried! It was the passengers that didn't want to go, they could have just saved themselves the hassle and not bothered

 

[37113]

I almost booked my party on that as well. No more trips through Birmingham until Oct as far as I can see.

Thanks pathfinders & RTC

Well there is a Deltic to Paignton if that floats your boat (terrible pun!), literally 8 seats, in 2 groups of 4 have become available for those wanting a last minute day out
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Roughly you are looking at between 18-20k for a full package of safety case, crew, stock, track access and a basic locomotive.

Wow which TOC are you talking about, will give them a ring .

Realistically, no operator likes to cancel a job, but if the gap between sales and job cost (inc Advertising and all the other admin costs) is too much, it is simply too much. We've run jobs with 150 people on before, it's not commercially sustainable at all, but now and again it is workable using profits to pay for it.

 

[BestWestern]

I've often thought when reading through the usual mags etc that there are an awful lot of tours advertised these days; you do get the feeling that maybe some of them are expected not to go ahead, and by listing several the operators are perhaps testing the water with the expectation that some will run and others won't?? Is this perhaps a slightly flooded marketplace now? It also suprises me how many are booked to run with a '66 or '67 up front, why anybody would want to part with a handful of money for a ride behind such a mundane set of wheels is beyond me I'd have to admit!

 

[scotsman]

I've often though when reading through the usual mags etc that there are an awful lot of tours advertised these days; you do get the feeling that maybe some of them are expected not to go ahead, and by listing several the operators are perhaps testing the water with the expectation that some will run and others won't?? Is this perhaps a slightly flooded marketplace now?

Perhaps, in some areas. The problem is that some tours seem to be deliberately pitching tours against other operators' tours. The result tends to be a one or both tours being cancelled. RI had a good editorial on it a few months back

 

[crewmeal]

The other side of the coin is why book a rail tour in winter when the days are shorter. Plus with older MK1 & II stock the coaches are freezing and take ages to warm up. Personally I like to depart in daylight and at least see something until it gets dark around 9.30. Not 3.30.

 

[scotsman]

The other side of the coin is why book a rail tour in winter when the days are shorter. Plus with older MK1 & II stock the coaches are freezing and take ages to warm up. Personally I like to depart in daylight and at least see something until it gets dark around 9.30. Not 3.30.

Err, when folk are stuck inside and there's nothing to do?

 

[crewmeal]

Err, when folk are stuck inside and there's nothing to do?

With respect that is a stupid remark to make. There is no substance in comments like that. One point of a railtour is to take in the scenery outside.

 

[Chester025]

With respect that is a stupid remark to make. There is no substance in comments like that. One point of a railtour is to take in the scenery outside.

Or to go some place nice?

 

[scotsman]

With respect that is a stupid remark to make. There is no substance in comments like that. One point of a railtour is to take in the scenery outside.

I disagree, that is only one aspect of the railtour market. If anything, you made the stupid* remark for being narrow-minded. For you one point may be the scenery, but for others the journey (scenery notwithstanding), the traction and the terminus are all possible selling points for passengers. Did you not notice that Spitfire and SRPS have both run a tour overnight this year? The Celtic Growler trains are hugely popular, but the entire return journey is in darkness.

 

[crewmeal]

Obviously there are different aspects to a rail tour other than looking out of the window, as you mentioned, stations, traction, unusual places at night etc etc, but each to their own.

But there are far fewer railtours in winter than in summer.

 

[scotsman]

Obviously there are different aspects to a rail tour other than looking out of the window, as you mentioned, stations, traction, unusual places at night etc etc, but each to their own.

But there are far fewer railtours in winter than in summer.

The point being that they still run...