DfT travel survey on TPE

[alistairlees]

I’m on a tpe service from Cleethorpes to Warrington central. I haven’t seen the guard at all, but just got asked to show my ticket by someone wearing a light blue tabard over a suit. The tabard says “survey team” on the back and tracsis on the front (tracsis is a provider of various rail consultancy and technical services, though I expect most people would have no idea about that). They didn’t look especially authoritative and had no visible id, nor did they introduce themselves other than ‘can I see your ticket?’.

I asked where the information collected would be sent and was told to tpe and then dft. No further explanation was given.

Just out of interest:
- do they have an absolute right to see tickets? Survey participation is normally voluntary of course
- I’m on split tickets but they didn’t ask about this - so they are going to draw incorrect conclusions about my journey, which seems to defeat the purpose.

Has anyone else encountered them? Perhaps they have found a low key approach is the best way of getting travel info. I’m just trying to find out a bit more, rather than being critical in any way.

 

[Sheridan]

When I first saw them working on Avanti (or was it Virgin?) a few years ago they didn’t have the tabards and I was suspicious. I wondered if they were perhaps the kind of enthusiast who likes to play at being a ticket inspector! But they did have valid ID and when I’ve seen them since then at least one (they seem to work in pairs) was wearing a tabard. Although my experience was on the West Coast franchise the surveyors were working for Tracsis so presumably it’s the same operation.

 

[alistairlees]

There were two of them doing the carriage from opposite ends.

 

[skyhigh]

I’m on split tickets but they didn’t ask about this - so they are going to draw incorrect conclusions about my journey, which seems to defeat the purpose.

It will have been a ticketless travel survey, so splits wouldn't affect anything.

Essentially they just record numbers of passengers without tickets which is then used to calculate a % of ticketless passengers across routes. The TOC will use the information to inform deployment of revenue teams, DfT want the data as it's one of the performance metrics for the National Rail Contracts.

 

[Horizon22]

Ticketless travel survey on behalf of the DFT, most likely.

 

[GordonT]

I wonder what is expected of them whenever they encounter a ticketless passenger.

 

[Bungle965]

I've seen them before on both CrossCountry and Avanti.
I'm not quite sure what the hiring process is of them but the ones I've come across have been rude to fare paying passengers and smelt like death.

I'm surprised they haven't wound more people up the wrong way!

 

[WirralLine]

I wonder what is expected of them whenever they encounter a ticketless passenger.

Nothing, they just take a note and move on.

They were on the platform at Gobowen earlier this afternoon too.

 

[Bevan Price]

Are passengers entitld to ask to see some indication of "authority to check tickets" by someone with no visible identity that they are rail staff ?

 

[styles]

Are passengers entitld to ask to see some indication of "authority to check tickets" by someone with no visible identity that they are rail staff ?

They do carry ID.

Ultimately you can just refuse on the basis you don't believe they're an authorised person.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen them before on both CrossCountry and Avanti.
I'm not quite sure what the hiring process is of them but the ones I've come across have been rude to fare paying passengers and smelt like death.

I'm surprised they haven't wound more people up the wrong way!

I did in the past make a complaint about the conduct of some of these to WMT, though I don't think it went anywhere. They were unprofessional and rude.

 

[185143]

I've seen them before on both CrossCountry and Avanti.
I'm not quite sure what the hiring process is of them but the ones I've come across have been rude to fare paying passengers and smelt like death.

I'm surprised they haven't wound more people up the wrong way!

If I'm on a train and someone not in TOC uniform asks for my ticket, then unless they can offer a good reason and valid ID for asking (eg. Northern Carlisle revenue doing ticketless travel surveys) they will be told politely but firmly to foxtrot Oscar. And I would be telling anyone I'm with to do the same.

 

[johnr57]

Come across them frequently on journeys between Thirsk and York (though so far not on the return strangely) . Standard questions on the feedback form , what’s good, bad what needs improving etc . Staff pleasant enough so no great drama .

But no matter how often you complain about the lack of toilets on Thirsk station there seems no plan to rectify - maybe that’s another thread ….

 

[alistairlees]

Come across them frequently on journeys between Thirsk and York (though so far not on the return strangely) . Standard questions on the feedback form , what’s good, bad what needs improving etc . Staff pleasant enough so no great drama .

But no matter how often you complain about the lack of toilets on Thirsk station there seems no plan to rectify - maybe that’s another thread ….

On the occasion I encountered them yesterday there was no survey taking place, and they did not hand out any feedback forms. There was no dialogue beyond "can I see your ticket, please"? They then scanned the ticket and moved on to the next person. It sounds like you encountered something different.

 

[Starmill]

On the occasion I encountered them yesterday there was no survey taking place, and they did not hand out any feedback forms. There was no dialogue beyond "can I see your ticket, please"? They then scanned the ticket and moved on to the next person. It sounds like you encountered something different.

I think it may be the same. Presumably they only get the form out on their device to select an option for "passenger refused to show a ticket" or "passenger says they do not have a ticket" or something else. They usually do not collect any data about who you are or where you're actually going as this is not necessary. If your ticket doesn't scan I would guess they record what it is manually. These checks appear not to follow the professional body's code of conduct, which can be downloaded from the Market Research Society website: https://www.mrs.org.uk/standards/code-of-conduct

I would be curious to know if Tracsis is the data controller, and, if they are, on which basis they're processing your data. It's a poor approach from everything I've seen. The staff in question are usually recruited from general pools of interviewers and not given any training at all on what tickets are valid, or they may be given the absolute bare minimum such as recognising the common railcards and asking if the passenger has one, but that's it.

 

[2L70]

The way they’re organised is a shambles, seen one with the tabard on under an Adidas tracksuit top.
Some don’t have ID it appears they are just told to go on a certain train. No Doubt an agency creaming a few quid out of it.

 

[johnr57]

On the occasion I encountered them yesterday there was no survey taking place, and they did not hand out any feedback forms. There was no dialogue beyond "can I see your ticket, please"? They then scanned the ticket and moved on to the next person. It sounds like you encountered something different.

They ask to see my ticket, don’t scan it nor seem to make any another note.
The feedback form is a paper form and they supply a pen to complete it .
None of this trendy digital stuff involved here

 

[alistairlees]

I think it may be the same. Presumably they only get the form out on their device to select an option for "passenger refused to show a ticket" or "passenger says they do not have a ticket" or something else. They usually do not collect any data about who you are or where you're actually going as this is not necessary. If your ticket doesn't scan I would guess they record what it is manually. These checks appear not to follow the professional body's code of conduct, which can be downloaded from the Market Research Society website: https://www.mrs.org.uk/standards/code-of-conduct

I would be curious to know if Tracsis is the data controller, and, if they are, on which basis they're processing your data. It's a poor approach from everything I've seen. The staff in question are usually recruited from general pools of interviewers and not given any training at all on what tickets are valid, or they may be given the absolute bare minimum such as recognising the common railcards and asking if the passenger has one, but that's it.

They asked to see the railcard of the person sitting next to me (they probably had a 16-25) but not to see my railcard (travel agents discount) , maybe because of unfamiliarity with it.

 

[ainsworth74]

They ask to see my ticket, don’t scan it nor seem to make any another note.
The feedback form is a paper form and they supply a pen to complete it .
None of this trendy digital stuff involved here

That sounds more like the National Rail Passenger Survey done by Transport Focus. They tend to ask more questions about your experience of the journey rather than just questions about your ticket. What's being described here definitely the DfT ticketless travel survey which is only interested in, from when I've had it done on Northern, do you have a ticket, what is the ticket and what the purpose of your journey is.

 

[Haywain]

on which basis they're processing your data.

My understanding is that Ticketless Travel Surveys do not involve collecting any personal information.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Surely they have data on ticketless travel from conductor on board sales, gatelines and RPI activity?

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder what is expected of them whenever they encounter a ticketless passenger.

To record that a passenger is ticketless.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Surely they have data on ticketless travel from conductor on board sales, gatelines and RPI activity?

They do, but that's like marking your own homework.

Ticketless travel surveys are undertaken by a third party, though the results aren't necessarily accurate either.

 

[Adam Williams]

Ultimately you can just refuse on the basis you don't believe they're an authorised person.

I would bet a reasonable sum that this sort of reasoning likely doesn't get recorded properly, and then ends up getting recorded or interpreted as "probably ticketless" on the basis of the refusal.

 

[WirralLine]

Surely they have data on ticketless travel from conductor on board sales, gatelines and RPI activity?

Without knowing exactly how many people are on a train at an exact time and every ticket being recorded this would be very inaccurate.

For example lets pick a one stop service like Chester to Crewe. The conductor goes through the train and completes a full ticket check. Obviously any aztec code tickets (mobile or bogroll) will be scanned and recorded, say there's 50 of them. There's another 25 people with non scannable CCST tickets, they're not recorded in any way, same with BR Boxes staff cards, day ranger's, season passes etc.

Then one guy has no ticket and needs to pay so does, theres a logged sale but another guy has no ticket and refuses to pay. Unless reported by the guard then that's un logged too. In theory all tickets will have been checked or scanned through the gateline - however a lot of journeys won't be starting from Chester, they'll be connecting from other services eg North Wales Coast, Merseyrail etc. Yes they've got sales data for CCSTs and unscanned tickets, but no reliable data for how many people jump a free ride, how many CCST tickets are actually used and on what services etc.

However if you put a group of guys at say Gobowen like I saw yesterday, they check tickets as everybody gets off, they then know that at Gobowen at X time on X date the Cardiff train turned up, 26 people presented tickets, 3 didn't have one, there's some more accurate data than what you'd get via other means.

 

[riverhexes]

I'm interested in if it's only ticketless travel these surveys are interested in or if they also look at it from the other angle of things like people having unnecessarily expensive tickets- an anytime day return for instance when an off-peak return would be valid, just curious about what kind of data is being collected

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm interested in if it's only ticketless travel these surveys are interested in or if they also look at it from the other angle of things like people having unnecessarily expensive tickets- an anytime day return for instance when an off-peak return would be valid, just curious about what kind of data is being collected

How do you know that's the case though? I sometimes use the return portion of an Anytime Day Return when an Off-Peak single would be valid but that's because my outward was at a time when the Off-Peak was not valid. Not sure you can really be sure that someone has been "overcharged" or not when the interaction is basically just asking what ticket you hold.

 

[Haywain]

I'm interested in if it's only ticketless travel these surveys are interested in or if they also look at it from the other angle of things like people having unnecessarily expensive tickets- an anytime day return for instance when an off-peak return would be valid, just curious about what kind of data is being collected

There's a clue in the name, they are called ticketless travel surveys because they are looking for that one element.

 

[Segedunum]

I've encountered them on Avanti recently and they were showing ID while doing basically a full ticket check. I wasn't entirely impressed by their loud conversation with another passenger though, where they were basically slagging off "passengers" as a whole, saying how "lots" don't pay, how people are so dishonest, etc etc. Indeed many don't pay, but probably not something to loudly announce in public.

 

[Starmill]

My understanding is that Ticketless Travel Surveys do not involve collecting any personal information.

If they're sure they can't be collecting or processing anything subject to GDPR, which is very possible, then yes of course.