East Midlands Railway BEMUs by 2033: How could this be achieved?

[QSK19]

Moderator note: Split from

Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

So after all of the excitement about these paths being used for actual crew training, it is just for training of trainers? Where has it been mentioned it’s crew training? It’s driver training.

www.railforums.co.uk

https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/media/4062/download?inline

Region fleet strategy, though yet to be funded/confirmed – will see BEMUs
introduced from 2033

On a rather interesting side note, it states BEMUs replacing the Regional fleet from 2033.

 

[Killingworth]

On a rather interesting side note, it states BEMUs replacing the Regional fleet from 2033.

'From 2033' is probably near enough to satisfy the green lobby now and far enough away for those telling the story to be well out of the way when it actually happens.

 

[Nym]

Got to wonder where these "Battery-Electric" multiple units are going to charge themselves on some of the more 'regional' routes on the network if they don't have a means of self powering.

Feels a lot more like a green-wash than a strategy to me.

 

[Carntyne]

Got to wonder where these "Battery-Electric" multiple units are going to charge themselves on some of the more 'regional' routes on the network if they don't have a means of self powering.

Feels a lot more like a green-wash than a strategy to me.

The OLE?

 

[Nym]

The OLE?

And where’s this “OLE” you speak of east of Grantham and Nottingham / Newark…?

 

[hwl]

And where’s this “OLE” you speak of east of Grantham and Nottingham / Newark…?

About half should be replaceable with the expected MML wiring. The other half is a completely different matter as you say.

Hence BEMUs replacing the 158 fleet at 40 years old is probably on the cards with the 170 fleet remaining at the point.

 

[poffle]

Got to wonder where these "Battery-Electric" multiple units are going to charge themselves on some of the more 'regional' routes on the network if they don't have a means of self powering.

Feels a lot more like a green-wash than a strategy to me.

They'll need battery charging at the termini.

Irish Rail are introducing a new fleet of BEMUs but one of the major issues is getting a high capacity grid connection for charging. Similar issues with Electric Bus introduction and getting chargers into garages.

 

[duffield]

And where’s this “OLE” you speak of east of Grantham and Nottingham / Newark…?

Just considering the situation east of Nottingham with BEMUs, a Nottingham to Norwich service topping up at Nottingham, between Grantham and Peterborough (30+ minutes under the wires), at ELy (about 10 minutes in the wired section with the reversal) and at the terminus at Norwich (currently 30 minutes) should be possible, assuming Nottingham *does* get wired by 2033.

Although Ely to Norwich might be a stretch with some older generation BEMUs (50 mile range when fully charged) by 2033 it's not unreasonable to expect them to be able to manage this.

Nottingham to Skegness looks much more difficult, no decent charging opportunities the whole way except a brief topup at Grantham.

A Nottingham-Newark-Lincoln shuttle should easily be doable if you just had a charging bay and enough layover time at Lincoln, it's only 35 miles. But through services to Grimsby and Cleethorpes without significant charging stops at (say) Lincoln and Grimsby might be trickier.

So if the government is serious about getting rid of DMUs there will need to be some charging bays and at least some discontinuous OHLE in places where it's cheaper and simpler to erect, i.e. sections with few problem bridges, tunnels and junctions.

Although it all depends on how far and fast battery capacity, charging rates (and prices) improve in the next few years. A *lot* of money is being invested in this area mainly for electric road vehicles but much of the development should apply to rail vehicles as well.

 

[tfw756rider]

About half should be replaceable with the expected MML wiring. The other half is a completely different matter as you say.

Hence BEMUs replacing the 158 fleet at 40 years old is probably on the cards with the 170 fleet remaining at the point.

I've previously said on this forum that if a certain set of lines in the West Midlands was electrified by/in the early 2030s (which would require new electric trains), the East Midlands could acquire the 172/2s and 172/3s (ideally with tables added) to replace the 158s, so that would've been going from [158s and 170s] to [170s and 172s].

Therefore, if the above mentioned project on the other side of the region were to happen, perhaps this side's regional operations could instead go from [158s and 170s] to [172s and BEMUs].

 

[absolutelymilk]

Although Ely to Norwich might be a stretch with some older generation BEMUs (50 mile range when fully charged) by 2033 it's not unreasonable to expect them to be able to manage this.

Possibly a silly question, but why is the range of BEMUs so much less than for an electric car, which can already do several hundred miles when fully charged? I thought that rail vehicles were much more efficient because of the lower rolling friction.

 

[Thirteen]

8 years is plenty of time for battery technology for BEMU to progress to the levels which are needed.

 

[QSK19]

8 years is plenty of time for battery technology for BEMU to progress to the levels which are needed.

Presumably it would be more like 6 years seeing as 2033 is the theoretical introduction into service - would have thought the trains would start being built a couple of years beforehand.

But yes, I agree that it’s a good chunk of time for BEMUs to progress towards a decent level of battery range.

 

[Nottingham59]

Got to wonder where these "Battery-Electric" multiple units are going to charge themselves on some of the more 'regional' routes on the network if they don't have a means of self powering.

Feels a lot more like a green-wash than a strategy to me.

The answer is tri-modes on some routes and Static Frequency Converters on others.

A tri-mode BEMU would only need a tiny diesel engine to give it unlimited range, especially on slow lines through a flat landscape like Lincolnshire. With battery boost to get back up to linespeed and on gradients, I would guess that 2 x 100kW engines running on HVO biodiesel would be plenty for a 3-car tri-mode class 170 replacement. That size engine fits under the bonnet of a family car.

Then add OHLE recharging at your leisure. It would only need simple overhead conductor bars at major stations where all trains stop anyway, with SFCs fed from local 33kV electricity supplies. Add battery reinforcment if the local grid were not able to handle the recharging loads.

With OHLE fed from the ECML at Newark Castle and Retford Low Level, I'd expect that SFC recharging at Lincoln, Sleaford and Grimsby stations would probably be enough for the whole of the regional network in the East Midlands.

 

[duffield]

Possibly a silly question, but why is the range of BEMUs so much less than for an electric car, which can already do several hundred miles when fully charged? I thought that rail vehicles were much more efficient because of the lower rolling friction.

I'm not an expert, but I can think of a number of explanations:

• Different power to weight considerations. A modest two coach BEMU might be carrying around 150 passengers when crush loaded
• More rigorous safety and certification requirements
• Smaller market, fewer companies, with less money devoted to R&D
• All the above adding up to technology a generation or more behind electric cars

 

[Zomboid]

Electric car tech is what is pushing the train version along. But they're very different applications - in a train, they'll be subject to many more charge/discharge cycles per day than a typical car, as well as what's already been said.

 

[Thirteen]

The upcoming Tri modes like the Class 897 and the Hitachi train for Grand Central are going to be the test bed for Battery powered trains as well as Irish Rail's BEMU Alstom trains.

 

[Elecman]

Then add OHLE recharging at your leisure. It would only need simple overhead conductor bars at major stations where all trains stop anyway, with SFCs fed from local 33kV electricity supplies. Add battery reinforcment if the local grid were not able to handle the recharging loads.

it would be far easier to use a 3 phase 11kV supply as that is much more likely to be available rather than 33kV then via static Convertors to convert to 25kV single phase. You would need a fairly broad contact arrangement rather than just wire to avoid overheating the pantograph carbons/ contact wire as the train wouldn’t be moving.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is also difficult to predict on the EMR network, Infill schemes could fill in some gaps,

Peterborough - Ely I could see (as part of a key freight route)
Doncaster -Cleethorpes could be possible (which of course would mean Barnetby - Cleehorpes is covered) as the may justify that key could getting done.

For the sake of charging maybe Lincoln - Newark, Grantham - Sleaford and Sleaford - Lincoln. (of which non of these can be justified alone, but Edinburgh to Dalmeny is getting done.

Freight could one day maybe drive Peterborough - Doncaster, but can’t see it yet

 

[Nottingham59]

it would be far easier to use a 3 phase 11kV supply as that is much more likely to be available rather than 33kV then via static Convertors to convert to 25kV single phase.

There are lots of options, but luckily Grimsby and Lincoln have 132kV substations right next to the railway, and Sleaford has one just a few hundred metres away. All three places have plenty of 33kV circuits that could be tapped into.

You would need a fairly broad contact arrangement rather than just wire to avoid overheating the pantograph carbons/ contact wire as the train wouldn’t be moving.

Yes, thicker conductor bars and pantograph carbons may well be needed. I hope that someone is looking at what standards will be needed to cope with rapid batterification of the rail network.

EDIT: Given the Stadler EURO9000 takes 9MW (presumably when moving), I'd guess a standard GB pantograph and OHLE should be able to hande 5MW even when stationary. (Is that a fair guess?) 5MW is enough to recharge a 500kWh traction battery in 6 minutes, which strikes me as plenty fast enough for EMR regional BEMUs. But I might be wrong, how much power could a static BEMU draw on standard GB OHLE?


(Or they could just use the sort of robotic pantograph that battery trolleybuses use:

Image credit: Marc A. Hermann/MTA via Wikimedia

 

[Halish Railway]

On a rather interesting side note, it states BEMUs replacing the Regional fleet from 2033.

Does it necessarily say it’s going to replace the entire fleet?

There’re quite a few routes where battery electric trains are suitable such as Lincoln to Matlock and Leicester, Nottingham to Crewe and maybe Nottingham to Worksop where discontinuous electrification would be a good option, but all other routes look unsuitable for anything but a diesel multiple unit, apart from Liverpool to Norwich which could see 810s displaced onto it once the MML to Nottingham and Sheffield is electrified and if new EMUs are ordered.

 

[Zomboid]

There's always the technology along the lines of the West Ealing battery train, that doesn't take a long dwell to get a decent amount of charge into the train.
I don't know a huge amount about the EMT network, but that kind of technology at a few stations (not only termini) ought to allow a battery train to cover fairly large distances without wires.

 

[RealTrains07]

On a rather interesting side note, it states BEMUs replacing the Regional fleet from 2033.

Considering the refurbishment programme will be continuing into 2027. Thats not a long time between finishing the programme and then replacing the fleet if all regional trains are to go??

But then who knows with GBR taking over EMRs contract at some point in the near future things might change?

 

[Nym]

One might also feel it apt to point out here for those comparing with battery electric cars...

Trains need to meet fire standards.
Cars do not.

 

[Russel]

From following the 810 progress, an EMR BEMU project doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

[duffield]

Considering the refurbishment programme will be continuing into 2027. Thats not a long time between finishing the programme and then replacing the fleet if all regional trains are to go??

But then who knows with GBR taking over EMRs contract at some point in the near future things might change?

The key word in "will see BEMUs introduced from 2033" is "from". No end date or timescale is given! So the replacement programme should start in 2033 but might not be actually completed until - say - 2043 - which would give at least some of the most recently refurbished units 15+ years service after their refurb.

 

[dosxuk]

Liverpool to Norwich which could see 810s displaced onto it once the MML to Nottingham and Sheffield is electrified and if new EMUs are ordered

Not going to happen - for the same reasons the 222's aren't (and never were) going to be cascaded down to that route.

 

[Stephen42]

The key word in "will see BEMUs introduced from 2033" is "from". No end date or timescale is given! So the replacement programme should start in 2033 but might not be actually completed until - say - 2043 - which would give at least some of the most recently refurbished units 15+ years service after their refurb.

The estimated completion date for the "fleet strategy" item is 2035, though I wouldn't read too much into that. Documents like this are often wildly ambitious, with scope and dates changing significantly before any implementation.

2033 seems a date where the 158s would be considered end of life and it's unlikely they'd be replaced with diesels without any battery or electrical capability. With those timelines EMR can wait to see how the trains from the Northern procurement perform and latest battery advancements before deciding whether to go with BEMUs or a trimode mix to reduce emissions without having to rely solely on the battery off the wires. The extent of the wires in 2033 is probably not confirmed (or maybe even known) yet either.

 

[Russel]

The estimated completion date for the "fleet strategy" item is 2035, though I wouldn't read too much into that. Documents like this are often wildly ambitious, with scope and dates changing significantly before any implementation.

2033 seems a date where the 158s would be considered end of life and it's unlikely they'd be replaced with diesels without any battery or electrical capability. With those timelines EMR can wait to see how the trains from the Northern procurement perform and latest battery advancements before deciding whether to go with BEMUs or a trimode mix to reduce emissions without having to rely solely on the battery off the wires. The extent of the wires in 2033 is probably not confirmed (or maybe even known) yet either.

2033 Is only 8 years away, to get a new fleet into service by then, if we look at how the recent fleet introductions have gone, SWR 710s, LNWR 730s, ERM 810s, the order would have to be placed rather quickly.

 

[QSK19]

Does it necessarily say it’s going to replace the entire fleet?

There’re quite a few routes where battery electric trains are suitable such as Lincoln to Matlock and Leicester, Nottingham to Crewe and maybe Nottingham to Worksop where discontinuous electrification would be a good option, but all other routes look unsuitable for anything but a diesel multiple unit, apart from Liverpool to Norwich which could see 810s displaced onto it once the MML to Nottingham and Sheffield is electrified and if new EMUs are ordered.

I would have thought 158s - the 170s have plenty of life left in them.

Having said that, three things spring to mind.
- Firstly, given the £650m figure includes the £400m outlay for the 810s, would £250m cover replacing all the 158s and 170s?
- Secondly, the document puts heavy emphasis on getting rid of diesel trains, so that presumably means all of them?
- Thirdly, the ROI for allocating new build stock to the Regional operation would presumably be practically non-existent? Prior to seeing this, I’d have assumed that the 170 replacements would be 19x once Northern and/or WMR have moved onto other trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Apr 2025 ==

Considering the refurbishment programme will be continuing into 2027. Thats not a long time between finishing the programme and then replacing the fleet if all regional trains are to go??

But then who knows with GBR taking over EMRs contract at some point in the near future things might change?

See above for my thoughts. But as you say, who is to know once GBR is up and running.

 

[Energy]

- Thirdly, the ROI for allocating new build stock to the Regional operation would presumably be practically non-existent? Prior to seeing this, I’d have assumed that the 170 replacements would be 19x once Northern and/or WMR have moved onto other trains.

This comment here (thanks @bunnahabhain ) has the revenue breakdown as:

• 80% Intercity & Connect
• 5% Regional
• 15% Liverpool - Norwich

So the ROI on regional is almost certainly terrible, but BEMUs on Liverpool - Norwich should be financially possible.

Any BEMU order for this route is going to be small (e.g. 26 x 3 car) so ordering from the same framework as Northern would save money and allow for more fleet flexibility should the route change operator.