Sunday trading laws discussion

[lachlan]

I don't believe it has. Does feel kind of odd reading through this thread when to the best of my knowledge I've never met anyone in Scotland who wants to change that a supermarket can open 24/7. Even the Christian Right fringes like the Scottish Family Party aren't campaigning to change it.

Indeed - also this talk of shops not wanting to open due to lack of custom. Our supermarkets are open the same hours on Sunday as any other day.

That being said public transport hasn't caught up yet - I used to have to stay over at my parents so I could walk to work because the train didn't run early enough on a Sunday for me to make it there for 9

 

[Jamesrob637]

I doubt anywhere would bother opening before 10am that isn't already allowed to, most people have a lie-in on a Sunday and aren't out and about as early, many stores wouldn't see it as worthwhile paying the staff time on the Sunday early morning.
Allowing stores to open past 6pm will be popular in some areas, such as London west end. But generally small town retail closes at 5.30 or 6pm most days anyway. Allowing eight hours of opening anytime from 10am to 8pm might prove popular, but I expect many stores will keep the shorter hours as it can be staffed with one shift.

No, six hours can be staffed with a single shift whereas eight is more difficult (most would work 9-10 hours one day, but want a shorter day elsewhere to compensate)

 

[ChrisC]

That being said public transport hasn't caught up yet - I used to have to stay over at my parents so I could walk to work because the train didn't run early enough on a Sunday for me to make it there for 9

Public transport is not catching up in many areas but has actually got worse. As I pointed out earlier in this thread bus services in many areas of England, outside of the major cities and urban areas, are now less than they were years ago before Sunday trading was permitted. Many towns and villages in the shire counties have no Sunday bus services on many routes, whereas 30 years ago they did have buses at least from late morning onwards.

 

[jon81uk]

No, six hours can be staffed with a single shift whereas eight is more difficult (most would work 9-10 hours one day, but want a shorter day elsewhere to compensate)

That was my point. The government could look at increasing to allowing stores to open eight hours instead of six, but many stores might decide that the short six hours on a Sunday are a good thing as it can be covered by a single shift and it isn't worth the extra staffing to move up to eight hours.

 

[johntea]

One of my friends used to work in retail (TK Maxx), apparently on Sunday they would still often have staff working until around 8pm as it was a good opportunity to tidy up the store / stock take and other admin that they didn't generally get much chance to do the rest of the week due to being open (to the publc) until 8pm

 

[LUYMun]

I work in a butchery for a large supermarket chain, and the workload on a Sunday differs from the rest of the week. Namely, as there is a limited time window to interact with customers, it gives an opportunity to perform less frequent tasks surrounding opening times, namely the weekly/monthly/quarterly/annual cleaning routines for certain workstations/equipments.

The current Sunday regulations are adequate enough for me to balance the two workloads. But in my ideal world where supermarkets are closed on Sundays I’d imagine this would make staff planning easier, especially as not as many would be needed on Sundays (if anything just a few to perform said less frequent cleaning) and gives everyone else a chance to enjoy more of their social lives. I’d go even more radical and suggest to restrict Saturday opening hours for supermarkets, but that’s pie in the sky.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I work in a butchery for a large supermarket chain, and the workload on a Sunday differs from the rest of the week. Namely, as there is a limited time window to interact with customers, it gives an opportunity to perform less frequent tasks surrounding opening times, namely the weekly/monthly/quarterly/annual cleaning routines for certain workstations/equipments.

The current Sunday regulations are adequate enough for me to balance the two workloads. But in my ideal world where supermarkets are closed on Sundays I’d imagine this would make staff planning easier, especially as not as many would be needed on Sundays (if anything just a few to perform said less frequent cleaning) and gives everyone else a chance to enjoy more of their social lives. I’d go even more radical and suggest to restrict Saturday opening hours for supermarkets, but that’s pie in the sky.

Maybe restrict them on Wednesdays or Thursdays, apart from the few weeks leading up to Christmas.

 

[birchesgreen]

When i was a kid most shops closed on a wednesday afternoon.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Apart from Sunday trading and alcohol licencing laws, are there government/council restrictions on shop opening hours? Could shops decide to open to continental style hours?

 

[Statto]

No, couple of supermarkets near mine are open 24 hours from Monday morning to Saturday night, only sale of Alcohol is the only thing that's restricted if stores don't have a 24 hour Alcohol license.

Their has been controversy over shops in some areas trying to obtain a license so they can sell Alcohol into the early hours.

 

[EyeKay]

I don’t think that shops over a certain size are allowed to open on Easter Sunday although there may be an exception for garden centres

 

[JamesT]

Apart from Sunday trading and alcohol licencing laws, are there government/council restrictions on shop opening hours? Could shops decide to open to continental style hours?

Yes, councils can put restrictions on general opening hours. For example - https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/24985201.new-oxford-mcdonalds-restaurant-close-midnight/

The new McDonald's in Oxford city centre will stop serving at midnight, despite the existing branch being open until 3am.

McDonald's applied to Oxford City Council to serve hot food and non-alcoholic drinks every day between 11pm and midnight at their new premises.
The license was granted at Oxford City Council’s licensing and gambling committee meeting on Tuesday, (March 4).

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes, councils can put restrictions on general opening hours. For example - https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/24985201.new-oxford-mcdonalds-restaurant-close-midnight/

That's not a general restriction on opening hours - the serving of hot food after 11pm is a licensable activity

Premises licence (England and Wales) - GOV.UK

You'll need a premises licence if you want to sell alcohol or offer entertainment from a particular venue

www.gov.uk

Licensable activities include:

selling alcohol
serving hot food and drinks between 11pm and 5am
You’ll also need a licence if you provide the following types of entertainment:

theatrical performance
showing a film
indoor sporting event
boxing or wrestling (indoor or outdoor)
live music
recorded music
dance
facilities for making music
dancing facilities

 

[Richardr]

I don’t think that shops over a certain size are allowed to open on Easter Sunday although there may be an exception for garden centres

The other day that is similar is Christmas Day.

Note that the law is different in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

[EyeKay]

I don’t think Christmas Day has any legal restrictions, it’s just that most shops decide to close

 

[Lewisham2221]

I don’t think Christmas Day has any legal restrictions, it’s just that most shops decide to close

It is a legal requirement (with the exception of "small shops" and other specific exemptions:

Trading hours for retailers: the law
Small shops in England and Wales can open any day or hour. There are no trading hours restrictions in Scotland.

Size of a small shop
A small shop is one that measures up to and including 280 square metres.

This area includes all parts of the shop you use to display goods and serve customers. You can’t get around the restrictions by closing off parts of your shop on certain days.

Rules for large shops in England and Wales
Shops over 280 square metres:

can open on Sundays but only for 6 consecutive hours between 10am and 6pm
must close on Easter Sunday
must close on Christmas Day
If your Sunday trading hours are restricted, you must clearly display what they are inside and outside your shop.

Exemptions
Shops exempt from the Sunday trading restrictions for large shops include:

airport and railway station outlets
service station outlets
registered pharmacies selling only medicinal products and medical and surgical appliances
farms selling mainly their own produce
outlets wholly or mainly selling motor or bicycle supplies and accessories
suppliers of goods to aircraft or sea-going vessels on arrival at, or departure from, a port, harbour or airport
exhibition stands selling goods

Trading hours for retailers: the law

Trading hours for retailers, restrictions on Sunday opening and public holiday opening in England, Wales and Scotland

www.gov.uk

 

[EyeKay]

Thanks for the correction and link to official rules

 

[Howardh]

I drove to Lidl at my usual 10am time on a Sunday - closed, car-park empty. Forgot/didn't realise Easter openings. Morrisons too. So have to do it tomorrow, at least it's open at 8am!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I don’t think that shops over a certain size are allowed to open on Easter Sunday although there may be an exception for garden centres

Is there effectively any exception for garden centres which are over 280 square metres / 3000 square feet in size?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Is there effectively any exception for garden centres which are over 280 square metres / 3000 square feet in size?

A nursery style garden centre could potentially fall under the classification of a farm selling mainly it's own produce?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Is there effectively any exception for garden centres which are over 280 square metres / 3000 square feet in size?

The Horticultural Trades Association have been advocating for an exemption for garden centres for decades now. There's been various attempts to pass legislation, such as an amendment to the Sunday Trading Act (1994) which was defeated in both Houses, along with a private members' bill in the House of Lords in 2009 that never went anywhere.

As per the Hansard transcript for the amendment, most opposition seems to be around the variety of goods that garden centres sell and how that would be unfair to other retailers:

But as the Bill now stands, it clearly is not satisfactory that firms with a floor area of over 3,000 feet should be granted an exemption on what may very well prove to be a false premise. I think most of your Lordships would be quite content if, for example, garden centres sold even 10 per cent. of goods which were not related to gardens. But the fear that some of us have is that they could sell very much more—even up to 90 per cent. —of alternative products. That clearly would be unfair to other traders selling that particular type of goods.

 

[Richardr]

Of course the last time the House of Commons looked at the trading laws in England and Wales [2016], where the plan was to devolve the power to local councils, the majority against change was fewer than the number of SNP MPs who voted against, despite it not affecting Scotland.

 

[PeterC]

Apart from Sunday trading and alcohol licencing laws, are there government/council restrictions on shop opening hours? Could shops decide to open to continental style hours?

Conditions can be applied as part of planning consent for new builds or change of use.

 

[Ianigsy]

Of course the last time the House of Commons looked at the trading laws in England and Wales [2016], where the plan was to devolve the power to local councils, the majority against change was fewer than the number of SNP MPs who voted against, despite it not affecting Scotland.

As I recall, the justification was supposedly that it would affect Scotland in that Scottish retailers would lose business if every shop in the centre of Carlisle or Berwick decided to open for the full day - this was about the same time that minimum unit alcohol pricing was being considered and the supermarkets had started making plans to service orders for alcohol from English stores.

Until it was moved into Sainsbury’s, our local Argos used to open on Easter Sunday and take advantage of being able to offer their full range from a floor space no bigger than a corner shop.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

It's beyond time that these ridiculous Sunday trading laws were abolished. There is no need to tell shops when they can and can't open.

 

[Yew]

As I recall, the justification was supposedly that it would affect Scotland in that Scottish retailers would lose business if every shop in the centre of Carlisle or Berwick decided to open for the full day - this was about the same time that minimum unit alcohol pricing was being considered and the supermarkets had started making plans to service orders for alcohol from English stores.

Until it was moved into Sainsbury’s, our local Argos used to open on Easter Sunday and take advantage of being able to offer their full range from a floor space no bigger than a corner shop.

If the reverse of this situation was happening, I don't think the Scottish Assembly would be inviting English MPs in to vote...

 

[spyinthesky]

It's beyond time that these ridiculous Sunday trading laws were abolished. There is no need to tell shops when they can and can't open.

Whilst the ability to shop is not available for a few hours a day and a few days a week it is hardly ridiculous.
It is this type of worker that looks forward to bank holidays and Sundays off.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Whilst the ability to shop is not available for a few hours a day and a few days a week it is hardly ridiculous.
It is this type of worker that looks forward to bank holidays and Sundays off.

It's one of the days when most people in non-service-industries aren't working, so want to do their shopping. Shop staff still need to work as things are at the moment, so just make it a normal day and pay them for the extra hours. Seems to work OK in Scotland (which doesn't have these rules).

 

[spyinthesky]

It's one of the days when most people in non-service-industries aren't working, so want to do their shopping. Shop staff still need to work as things are at the moment, so just make it a normal day and pay them for the extra hours. Seems to work OK in Scotland (which doesn't have these rules).

Just going to have to disagree, I for one never go shopping on my day off.
This is my family time. For me on-line shopping is used for 90% of what I need and is cheaper than driving there. I can send anything back I don’t like the look of and just book another delivery as for £6 a month it is just a tap on the phone.
I’d rather they would not open at all on a Sunday

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Just going to have to disagree, I for one never go shopping on my day off.
This is my family time. For me on-line shopping is used for 90% of what I need and is cheaper than driving there. I can send anything back I don’t like the look of and just book another delivery as for £6 a month it is just a tap on the phone.
I’d rather they would not open at all on a Sunday

So if you aren't going to use the shops at all on a Sunday, it makes no difference to you either - so why have such a strong opinion on something which doesn't affect you? It seems rather petty to 'rather they would not open at all'. Even if it makes no different to you, it does to a lot of people.