What current train services would look different if certain railways hadn’t been closed?

[yorksrob]

It would have been useful to retain the ex-GC section from Banbury via Woodford Halse and Rugby to just south of Countesthorpe, where it could have been diverted via the former Midland Railway Rugby-Leicester line to run into Leicester (London Road) station. This would have provided a direct connection from the East Midlands and points further north to Oxford/Reading/Hampshire, avoiding Birmingham.

Or just continue North via Mansfield to join the ECML at Tuxford.

Worth remembering that the route probably could have sustained a decent local traffic on the section between Rugby and Mansfield.

 

[leighsw2]

Ah, interesting. Looks like the Great Central really was doomed

The London Extension wasn't called 'Watkins Folly' for nothing!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

If the urban lines in Bristol had remained open, I reckon that they would have been converted into a light rail or heavy metro route by now. A new line from Brislington (on the GWR line to Radstock and Frome) could be built through the city centre to join up with the Avonmouth Branch at Clifton Down, with one route turning left towards Severn Beach, and another turning right to towards Montpelier, then taking over the Midland route to Mangotsfield (with possible future extension to Bath).

The contrast between Bristol and Cardiff is interesting. The former lost most of it local urban rail while Cardiff kept its network more or less intact due to the coal traffic. It even added a new passenger line, the City Line, in 1987.

However, the one line it did lose, the goods only Taff Vale Docks Extention Railway, would today provide a useful link across the affluent northern suburbs. Unfortunately much of the trackbed is now buried under the A48(M) and the A48 (Eastern Avenue).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There was no need for it when it was built, never mind when traffic started declining.

Possibly, but I’m still a massive GCR nerd through. I love the idea that a regional railway just said “to hell with it” and dug a main line to London.

 

[Zomboid]

Much of

Possibly, but I’m still a massive GCR nerd through. I love the idea that a regional railway just said “to hell with it” and dug a main line to London.

It is interesting for sure, and the fact that it was unnecessary is part of that.
A bit like the Milwaukee Road's Pacific extension, which is ultimately what killed it, the London extension didn't do the MSLR any good, really.

 

[yorksrob]

Much of

It is interesting for sure, and the fact that it was unnecessary is part of that.
A bit like the Milwaukee Road's Pacific extension, which is ultimately what killed it, the London extension didn't do the MSLR any good, really.

NE/SW connections via the East Midlands are a bit ropey, even to this day. I think when it was there, the route possibly wasn't used to it's potential in that respect (possibly due to differences between companies/regions).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Or just continue North via Mansfield to join the ECML at Tuxford.

Worth remembering that the route probably could have sustained a decent local traffic on the section between Rugby and Mansfield.

Well, seeing as Mansfield (Central) had closed as far back as January 1956 for regular services I’m not sure that there was much by way of ‘decent local traffic’ to sustain.

 

[WAO]

There was no need for it when it was built, never mind when traffic started declining.

And the malign effects on the Midland Railway's routes persist to this day. The more useful Midland link from Leicester to Rugby went before the GC route etc. The Woodhead route, necessary for coal movement nevertheless deflected investment in the Midland system, whose direct route to Manchester was lost and whose line to Leeds collapsed into coal workings. The S&K route was some compensation.

A pity that enthusiasts' pro-GCR clamour over the years was not directed at preserving and developing the Midland routes.

WAO

 

[Sad Sprinter]

And the malign effects on the Midland Railway's routes persist to this day. The more useful Midland link from Leicester to Rugby went before the GC route etc. The Woodhead route, necessary for coal movement nevertheless deflected investment in the Midland system, whose direct route to Manchester was lost and whose line to Leeds collapsed into coal workings. The S&K route was some compensation.

A pity that enthusiasts' pro-GCR clamour over the years was not directed at preserving and developing the Midland routes.

WAO

I mean yeah sure that's true, but the romantic narrative behind the Great Central Railway is more relatable to most people over the strategic unimportance of the line.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, seeing as Mansfield (Central) had closed as far back as January 1956 for regular services I’m not sure that there was much by way of ‘decent local traffic’ to sustain.

I'm presuming the other Mansfield survived longer, to be succeeded by "Mansfield Parkway", so the demand from the town has always been there. Perhaps there might have been an argument for concentrating services on Central as a main line hub.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Apr 2025 ==

And the malign effects on the Midland Railway's routes persist to this day. The more useful Midland link from Leicester to Rugby went before the GC route etc. The Woodhead route, necessary for coal movement nevertheless deflected investment in the Midland system, whose direct route to Manchester was lost and whose line to Leeds collapsed into coal workings. The S&K route was some compensation.

A pity that enthusiasts' pro-GCR clamour over the years was not directed at preserving and developing the Midland routes.

WAO

I'm not sure that the GC can be blamed for the loss of the main line through Bakewell or the mine workings under the Midland main line.

In fact Enthusiasts have tried substantially to rebuild the line through Bakewell (and continue to operate part of it).

The blame for any malign effects on the Midland system should be placed squarely on the Establishment (railway and political) at the time, and its obsession with the disastrous closure programme.

 

[WAO]

I mean yeah sure that's true, but the romantic narrative behind the Great Central Railway is more relatable to most people over the strategic unimportance of the line.

Absolutely.

I think that this infected Establishment thinking as well as that of enthusiasts, with ideas of Berne Gauge, the Channel Tunnel and through trains to Paris....and sowed doubts about the value of the Cinderella Midland lines which were anyway neither East nor West Coast.

That doesn't include present day enterprises such as the GCR heritage groups at Loughborough and Nottingham whose achievements are beyond praise, IMHO.

WAOI

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I do wonder also whether if Three Bridges to Tunbridge Wells had remained open, some of the North Downs services would have been extended to provide a link between TW, Gatwick and the West.

Then there's the Somerset and Dorset joint. With a few amendments at Templecombe, you could have had direct services between Bournemouth/Poole and the West country.

Direct trains from Charing Cross to Bexhill, splitting at Crowhurst.

Serious grade separation needed between Redhill and Gatwick. I rather fancy (and this is way into Crayonista territory) a light rail line serving Gatwick but going on to Crawley with street running in E Grinstead and Tunbridge Wells.

 

[yorksrob]

Serious grade separation needed between Redhill and Gatwick. I rather fancy (and this is way into Crayonista territory) a light rail line serving Gatwick but going on to Crawley with street running in E Grinstead and Tunbridge Wells.

Yes, it's a busy bit of track. Though if such a service had made it through, maybe they would have had to fit all the other services around them !

 

[DJ_K666]

If the Great Central was still open, I’ve come to imagine it as a meandering regional line rather than a north/south trunk route. I can imagine Central Trains class 170s at High Wycombe heading to Manchester calling at most stations.

Didn't someone do a model railway based on that idea? Charwelton: Into the 80s, I think it's called. It's got a very basic Charwrlton station with the buildings removed and bus shelters erected, very infrequent DMU service using Clubman or Turbostar units and a lot of freight. Worth having a look if you see it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2025 ==

Serious grade separation needed between Redhill and Gatwick. I rather fancy (and this is way into Crayonista territory) a light rail line serving Gatwick but going on to Crawley with street running in E Grinstead and Tunbridge Wells.

Crawley Down sits on the trackbed at Grange Road station so a tramway* would definitely work.

*I refuse to make the Heavy/light rail distinction. There are Railways and there are Tramways. Light Railways are the stuff of Colonel Stephens

 

[billio]

Not a Beeching closure, but Wellingborough to Northampton would form a very useful link between the northern part of the Midland Main Line, South Yorkshire, Nottingham and Milton Keynes and places served by East-West Rail, Oxford and beyond.

As there are not any important places on the line and those that might be are bypassed by the line, trains could run non-stop at least at 100mph from one end to the other making the service much quicker than the existing alternatives.

 

[465fan]

Not a Beeching closure, but Wellingborough to Northampton would form a very useful link between the northern part of the Midland Main Line, South Yorkshire, Nottingham and Milton Keynes and places served by East-West Rail, Oxford and beyond.

As there are not any important places on the line and those that might be are bypassed by the line, trains could run non-stop at least at 100mph from one end to the other making the service much quicker than the existing alternatives.

To be able to go south out of Northampton, round, and then face north at Wellingborough would be excellent for domestic freight. At the moment, stuff from Daventry has to go round Birmingham to get to Toton. To go to Northampton and straight up must surely be a massive potential time saving? That, and journeys from Leicester / Corby / Kettering to Northampton would be oodles easier, if you even bothered with an hourly service.

 

[deltic08]

Lines that I travelled on regularly that I think would be regularly used now are:-
1. Grange Court-Ross-Hereford.
2. Cheltenham-Stratford-Birmingham.
3. Mangotsfield-Bath GP-Bournemouth.
4.Workington-Keswick-Penrith.
5.Penrith-Kirkby Stephen-Darlington.
All except 5. would be used to-day as population increase would make them more viable than in steam days with relatively cheaper to run modern diesel trains.

Lines I have travelled on but not regularly.
6.Perth-Forfar-Stonehaven.
7.Dunblane-Doune-Callendar.
8.Dumfries-Stranraer.
9.Sheffield Victoria-Penistone-Manchester. I can never understand closure of the Woodhead route to passenger traffic. EM2 loco hauled passenger trains would regularly run at 90mph uphill whereas DMUs on the Hope Valley route would not be doing more than 60mph. Loco hauled coaches much more comfortable than vibrating DMUs.

Lines I have never travelled on but would still be more than useful now again considering UK population has virtually doubled in the last 70 years.
9. Cross Gates-Wetherby-Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton. Population along this line in 1960 was 68,000, mostly Harrogate. In 2021 136,000 and when East Leeds new town is complete
175,000.
10,Spalding-Louth-Boston-Grimsby.
11.Okehampton-Tavistock-Plymouth.

 

[Helvellyn]

Not a Beeching closure, but Wellingborough to Northampton would form a very useful link between the northern part of the Midland Main Line, South Yorkshire, Nottingham and Milton Keynes and places served by East-West Rail, Oxford and beyond.

As there are not any important places on the line and those that might be are bypassed by the line, trains could run non-stop at least at 100mph from one end to the other making the service much quicker than the existing alternatives.

The line was originally Northampton-Peterborough, and became an LNWR route. There was a spur built to link to the Midland at Wellingborough but this has been been partially built on in Wellingborough. The connection also came up on the wrong side as well - to the Fasts rather than the Slows, which would have been better if still open as a freight route.

Northampton-Peterborough would have been an interesting freight route given how busy the A45/A605 is today and could have provided an alternate for Freightliner traffic from Felixstowe. However, despite being an early route (built by London & Birmingham railway) it was done cheaply in the sense that all road crossings were on the level.

 

[The Planner]

To be able to go south out of Northampton, round, and then face north at Wellingborough would be excellent for domestic freight. At the moment, stuff from Daventry has to go round Birmingham to get to Toton. To go to Northampton and straight up must surely be a massive potential time saving? That, and journeys from Leicester / Corby / Kettering to Northampton would be oodles easier, if you even bothered with an hourly service.

Just do a run round at the north end of Northampton.

Edit: I thought we were on about the Market Harborough line, which would have a better case of opening. There is nowhere near enough freight out of DIRFT in that direction that would justify Wellingborough as a solution.

 

[Dr Hoo]

A (long-mooted) new West Chord at Whitacre would be far more useful for many freight flows, not only Daventry-Toton.

 

[billio]

An alternative to Wellingborough might be to reopen Northampton to Market Harborough, might actually be better as it is more direct but misses out a link between Northampton and Kettering, Wellingborough etc. which are quite large settlements.

 

[PTR 444]

An alternative to Wellingborough might be to reopen Northampton to Market Harborough, might actually be better as it is more direct but misses out a link between Northampton and Kettering, Wellingborough etc. which are quite large settlements.

This would probably be better value for money too, since it would allow direct trains between places on the M1 corridor south of Northampton and north of Leicester.

 

[465fan]

A (long-mooted) new West Chord at Whitacre would be far more useful for many freight flows, not only Daventry-Toton.

Oh absolutely, or putting it back in from Hampton. Both would be excellent.

 

[The Planner]

Oh absolutely, or putting it back in from Hampton. Both would be excellent.

Whitacre trumps Hampton by a mile. You couldn't restore Hampton anyway as Birmingham Interchange HS2 station sits on it.

 

[6Gman]

…except it’s not that far until you reach the Cambrian Coast Line. Wonder if it would have been better to keep Afon Wen - Caernarfon open and close the remaining line to Pwllheli.

Do you mean closing Afon Wen to Pwllheli?

Staying on that theme, if Afon Wen-Bangor and Aberystwyth-Carmarthen had remained open it would deprive a certain sort of Welsh nationalist of the pleasure of whingeing about having to travel through England to get from North Wales to South Wales by train.

 

[PTR 444]

Do you mean closing Afon Wen to Pwllheli?

Yes I do

Staying on that theme, if Afon Wen-Bangor and Aberystwyth-Carmarthen had remained open it would deprive a certain sort of Welsh nationalist of the pleasure of whingeing about having to travel through England to get from North Wales to South Wales by train.

Ignoring Aberystwyth - Carmarthen for a moment, I’m amazed that Pwllheli was considered a more important destination than Caernarfon for the Cambrian Coast Line. What was the reason for keeping the former open but closing the latter?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Not a Beeching closure,

It wasn't?

but Wellingborough to Northampton would form a very useful link between the northern part of the Midland Main Line, South Yorkshire, Nottingham and Milton Keynes and places served by East-West Rail, Oxford and beyond.

I'm sure others would have other nominations, but I'd say the closure of Wellingboro - Northampton was the worst single closure of the 1960s. It was a short route (12 miles?), so what were the savings? And it offered such potential for connectivity. Much better than Bletchley - Bedford, especially considering that did not run into Bedford Midland at the time, and was also likely expected to close.

BR & the Ministry of Transport must have known, even in 1964, that the GC would be closing north of Aylesbury, and could have insisted keeping Aylesbury to Calvert, running a DMU Aylesbury - Bletchley - Northampton - Wellingboro' - Kettering - Corby - Oakham - Melton - Nottingham. (Single sections north of Corby as appropriate.)

And, of course, Milton Keynes was also in the planning stage, though I'm not sure it was announced by the time the GC closed. Nonetheless, it would clearly need new connections.

Nobody would expect to use Aylesbury - Nottingham throughought (faster to Nottingham by changing at Wellingboro), but this would have maintained a service northwards from Aylesbury (actually, better than anything previously offered, at least in terms of connections), a service to Corby and north thereof.

As there are not any important places on the line and those that might be are bypassed by the line, trains could run non-stop at least at 100mph from one end to the other making the service much quicker than the existing alternatives.

You mean between Northampton and Wellingboro? You could have kept Castle Ashby open. Don't think Northampton Bridge Street would make the grade.

90 mpn or even 75 mph line speed would have been fine.

The line was originally Northampton-Peterborough, and became an LNWR route. There was a spur built to link to the Midland at Wellingborough but this has been been partially built on in Wellingborough. The connection also came up on the wrong side as well - to the Fasts rather than the Slows, which would have been better if still open as a freight route.

Northampton-Peterborough would have been an interesting freight route given how busy the A45/A605 is today and could have provided an alternate for Freightliner traffic from Felixstowe. However, despite being an early route (built by London & Birmingham railway) it was done cheaply in the sense that all road crossings were on the level.

Agree that longer term Wellingboro' - Peterboro' would have been good, but I suspect the financials at the time would have been very poor. And, of course, it ran into Peterboro' East, not North.

Was Oundle station well located for the settlement? If so, might have provided some local traffic, I suppose. There was the school, of course.

 

[eldomtom2]

Ignoring Aberystwyth - Carmarthen for a moment, I’m amazed that Pwllheli was considered a more important destination than Caernarfon for the Cambrian Coast Line. What was the reason for keeping the former open but closing the latter?

I suspect the answer is because the service had always been Machynlleth to Pwllheli, change at Afon Wen for Caernarvon and Bangor, and the Beeching report didn’t really look at rejigging services.

 

[Helvellyn]

Ignoring Aberystwyth - Carmarthen for a moment, I’m amazed that Pwllheli was considered a more important destination than Caernarfon for the Cambrian Coast Line. What was the reason for keeping the former open but closing the latter?

I'll go out on a limb and say Butlins is what kept it open. Whilst Minehead lost its British Rail link the M5 meant access was possible by road in a way Pwllheli wasn't.

 

[465fan]

I'll go out on a limb and say Butlins is what kept it open. Whilst Minehead lost its British Rail link the M5 meant access was possible by road in a way Pwllheli wasn't.

Are you sure it wasn't the fact that the former Merioneth constituency was marginal, and Labour held it? On the flip side, Minehead, part of the Taunton constituency, was safe Tory?