Might GTR abolish their "Gatwick Express" brand?

[dorsetdesiro]

With all the confusion by GX now seemingly operated as a regular Southern service, so does GTR plan to discontinue GX and replace it with ordinary Southern express services as most now run to Brighton thus GX seems redundant as a separate brand?

London branded airport express services could become redundant in time - HEX (supplanted by Elizabeth line) becoming regular green livered GWR service direct from Paddington; GA running the same intercity trains on Stansted Express; EMR may have taken on the Luton Express branding on their Connect services, but was this really necessary as the trains do call at Luton Airport as Thameslink does anyway?

 

[D3WY]

With all the confusion by GX now seemingly operated as a regular Southern service, so does GTR plan to discontinue GX and replace it with ordinary Southern express services as most now run to Brighton thus GX seems redundant as a separate brand?

Southern don't run out of Brighton to Three Bridges now, if you leaving Brighton to go up the Brighton mainline you have to get a Thameslink or a GX.

 

[MarkyT]

With all the confusion by GX now seemingly operated as a regular Southern service, so does GTR plan to discontinue GX and replace it with ordinary Southern express services as most now run to Brighton thus GX seems redundant as a separate brand?

London branded airport express services could become redundant in time - HEX (supplanted by Elizabeth line) becoming regular green livered GWR service direct from Paddington; GA running the same intercity trains on Stansted Express; EMR may have taken on the Luton Express branding on their Connect services, but was this really necessary as the trains do call at Luton Airport as Thameslink does anyway?

I think airport expresses can legitimately exist, but they are much better if they also do other things, so ideally they're really regular limited stop expresses that happen to call at an airport en route.

HEX extended via southern connection to parts of Surrey and Hampshire would fit this bill, providing direct airport and HS2 connections from those areas. GATEX to the coast is similar. They should be available at regular express fares to move capacity and justify their paths usefully.

BRs original justification for GATEX was to relieve crowding and luggage difficulties on expresses that made the airport call. There was no intention to create a premium brand and corresponding fare. Additional short journeys between London and the airport could clearly still be run if required at busy times. It's better not to brand and price them separately as each brand would have to run all day to make any commercial sense. Better to think of Southern, or whatever the central division becomes in the future, as Gatwick's express rail network partner: Fast links to London and the coast. All express stock could then carry some discrete airport branding and internal info/ad material to represent that great connectivity.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I think the direct answer is a NO

Gatwick Express has for a fair while now been officially (de jure) a premium airport express service, with different trains (historically), a non stop calling pattern and consequently premium fares. It is technically supposed to be for a slightly different market to Southern, which calls at Gatwick in part to provide extra services to London, and to provide regional connectivity to the airport.

However, if the question is whether it SHOULD be abolished and transferred to Southern, then the answer is a YES. Under GTR, the service has declined greatly.

For example, they have removed the dedicated express shuttles and replaced them with services to Brighton only, which essentially was supposed to be a peak time extension, and then an all day supplement to the Southern service. Now, it has ended up as the only direct service from Victoria to Brighton, a purpose it wasnt supposed to be in the first place.

The other reason is the trains. They have declined from premium locomotive hauled express trains to basic commuter trains in the form of Class 387, which are in many ways worse trains than Class 377s on Southern, with ironing board seats unlike (most of) the 377s.

And despite all of this, premium fares are still charged for the Gatwick Express, and the time difference at absolute best is around 5 minutes for almost double the cost. More than anything else, it is a tourist trap to make extra money for Rachel Reeves and her black hole at this point. If it was up to me alone, I would (despite what stakeholders would say) scrap the premium fares, add stops at Clapham Junction and/or East Croydon, and just run it as a conventional Southern Victoria to Brighton service, making better usage of train paths.

Maybe if the Southern Network was generally faster (like the SWR is), and running fast trains could make a substantial difference to journey times, if there were generally improved and more premium trains which could operate at high frequencies, maybe then the Gatwick Express would be a worthwhile service. However, as it stands now on the existing network, it is a waste of money that should be boycotted at all costs.

 

[signed]

I think it will very much depend on the outcome of the lawsuit regarding TOC vs brand and what stupid the nationalized operator will cook

If there is a ruling/settlement that GX is not separate from the GTR, and therefore can't charge the premium, yes it will fold as a regular Southern until GTR's franchise expire.

Once the franchise is nationalized, I see the service return with some law introduced allowing the premiums back.

If the ruling is that GX can charge the premiums and all the brands are separate, then nothing will happen

 

[Minstral25]

GTR will not be able to abolish the Gatwick Express as it is not in their right to remove it.

It is run as a separate service because the DfT mandate it as such in GTR's management contract. Which in turn is due to DfT's separate agreements with Gatwick Airport. The Airport see the GatEx as a premium service for the Airport.

Whilst I'd see it gone in an instant and replaced by more useful Southern services, it is unlikely to go anywhere, and if it does it won't be GTR that abolishes it.

 

[Kite159]

In a crayonist world, keep the Gatwick Express trains but ditch any sort of premium fare to use them (maybe at the same time as getting rid of any 'Thameslink only' fares to keep the lawyers happy). Have the trains call at Clapham Junction (pick up only on down trains) but not at East Croydon which already has plenty other options.

Rebrand them as Southern 'Express' services on the information screens.

 

[PGAT]

There is no reason why Gatwick Express needs to exist. As I’m sure we’re all aware, it’s a cash grab, it’s only 3 minutes faster than the Southern alternative and it’s an inefficient use of resources that puts more pressure on the mainline Southern trains.

The brand obviously isn’t going to be going anywhere unless GBR does its thing, so as a compromise I would turn the current Brighton to Victoria into a Southern service stopping additionally at Clapham and East Croydon, and restore the Gatwick shuttle as part of the GX brand to keep the airport happy.

 

[popeter45]

the Gatwick Express doesnt have a unique selling point anymore, its hardly faster than the regular services, its not premium in comfort vs regualr services and not even that much better luggage wise

if Southern want to enourage people to use the service, bringing back a dedicated luggage carriage on one of the 387's and better seats could go a decent way in providing a unique selling point but if that would be enough to get people to choose the service is another thing
dont even need to do it with a 387, take a few 700/1's gut the ironing boards, make carriage 1 luggage and add actually decent seats to the rest of the train

 

[Farnborough]

In a crayonist world, keep the Gatwick Express trains but ditch any sort of premium fare to use them (maybe at the same time as getting rid of any 'Thameslink only' fares to keep the lawyers happy). Have the trains call at Clapham Junction (pick up only on down trains) but not at East Croydon which already has plenty other options.

How about the opposite - rather than be absorbed into Southern, GatEx be subsumed into, and as another branch of, Thameslink?

Victoria --> Clapham --> East Croydon --> Gatwick Airport --> Semi-fast to Brighton

 

[JonathanH]

The brand obviously isn’t going to be going anywhere unless GBR does its thing, so as a compromise I would turn the current Brighton to Victoria into a Southern service stopping additionally at Clapham and East Croydon, and restore the Gatwick shuttle as part of the GX brand to keep the airport happy.

That isn't really a compromise as it increases running costs for no good reason.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

That isn't really a compromise as it increases running costs for no good reason.

I don't really agree with that entirely, as that was basically what the service was historically operated anyway, where there were shuttles, extended GX services to Brighton AND Southern services to Brighton, so that is partly restoring a historical service which was cut in part thanks to COVID and upgrades at the Airport, which are finished now anyway so the present service is just a bit of a bad excuse.

Although something that shouldn't be done is by bringing back the old Southern Victoria to Brighton trains like they were exactly as they were before the Pandemic, as that would require Littlehampton via Worthing trains to run combined with Eastbourne and Hastings trains as far as Haywards Heath, consequently reducing capacity on both routes, which as something who has experienced trains in the Hove area would cause quite a bit of overcrowding which already happens on 4-car Coastway trains out of Brighton, and that is smething that would happen quickly if London services went down from 8 coaches back to 4, and same thing probably applies around the Lewes area.

Such a service would need new or currently unused train paths to be used, which are available because before the Pandemic, there were more trains into Victoria than now, and Gatwick Express already have 2 platforms all to themselves for a 2tph service post-COVID, so platform space is more than sufficient given it's probably pretty rare to have both platform 13 and 14 both in use, and any times where that is the case is probably for a matter of minutes.

How about the opposite - rather than be absorbed into Southern, GatEx be subsumed into, and as another branch of, Thameslink?

Victoria --> Clapham --> East Croydon --> Gatwick Airport --> Semi-fast to Brighton

That is totally illogical. The Gatwick Express for its entire route except for the short linking section into Brighton follows Southern, particularly on its leg into London where it runs into Victoria rather than London Bridge, which a long time ago they could have chosen as the Gatwick Express terminal but was not.
And the whole idea of Thameslink is in the name, it links both sides of the Thames, as in major railways on both sides, hence its name. It's not really supposed to be a railway entirely south of the Thames except for Victoria, which is itself about 1 mile from the Thames. If a Victoria to Brighton service calling at Clapham Junction and/or East Croydon comes back, there is no question that the most logical operator (other than GB rail someday) would be Southern, not Thameslink.

 

[PGAT]

Although something that shouldn't be done is by bringing back the old Southern Victoria to Brighton trains like they were exactly as they were before the Pandemic, as that would require Littlehampton via Worthing trains to run combined with Eastbourne and Hastings trains as far as Haywards Heath, consequently reducing capacity on both routes, which as something who has experienced trains in the Hove area would cause quite a bit of overcrowding which already happens on 4-car Coastway trains out of Brighton, and that is smething that would happen quickly if London services went down from 8 coaches back to 4, and same thing probably applies around the Lewes area.

Such a service would need new or currently unused train paths to be used, which are available because before the Pandemic, there were more trains into Victoria than now, and Gatwick Express already have 2 platforms all to themselves for a 2tph service post-COVID, so platform space is more than sufficient given it's probably pretty rare to have both platform 13 and 14 both in use, and any times where that is the case is probably for a matter of minutes.

By transferring the current Brighton service from GX to Southern you wouldn’t need to alter any other paths. Pre-pandemic it was 4tph with 2 each from Southern and GX which is what resulted in the horrendous situation of dividing the Littlehampton and Eastbourne services. Spare capacity is certainly available at Victoria, the 2tph shuttle doesn’t run anymore and neither do the peak Caterham/Tattenham Corners

 

[Farnborough]

And the whole idea of Thameslink is in the name, it links both sides of the Thames, as in major railways on both sides, hance its name. It's not really supposed to be a railway entirely south of the Thames except for Victoria, which is itself about 1 mile from the Thames.

Thameslink includes a number of routes, including Blackfriars to Sevenoaks - and Blackfriars is even less north-of-the-Thames than Victoria

But I take your point about GatEx following a Southern route.

 

[cle]

By transferring the current Brighton service from GX to Southern you wouldn’t need to alter any other paths. Pre-pandemic it was 4tph with 2 each from Southern and GX which is what resulted in the horrendous situation of dividing the Littlehampton and Eastbourne services. Spare capacity is certainly available at Victoria, the 2tph shuttle doesn’t run anymore and neither do the peak Caterham/Tattenham Corners

I would do a Brighton express with 2tph as today - and then arguably a Brighton stopper with the other two. Or Hove. If capacity wasn't available, can always turn at Three Bridges or Haywards Heath.

 

[Sussexwatch]

I remember attending a presentation from GTR where I'm sure we were told the Gatwick Express service would return to a 15 minute frequency between Victoria and Gatwick when the rebuilding works at Gatwick Airport station were finished, but it didn't happen.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

In the last few years also since the pandemic, I'm wondering if the airport express services have been "downgraded" as the operators seem to be backsliding such as HEX now having the 387s which are inferior compared to their precedessors for premium fares; also Stansted Express not having a dedicated fleet like 379s that the 745s could be used interchangably by replacing Stansted Express decals with GA ones; the GX service patterns could remain the same but only relivering the red trains into standard Southern green.

GTR may not be able to get rid of GX but this could be operated under the Southern livery, as red GX stock are seen running elsewhere also Southern stock have been in GX service so it might make sense to have it all under Southern?

 

[renegademaster]

back a dedicated luggage carriage

Would the current timetable be able to cope with the increased dwell times it would bring?

 

[physics34]

These trains continue to be lightly loaded generally. With the shortage of stock on Southern the vic to brightons need to call at Clapham Junction and East Croydon.

The end of the current 'gatwick express' can't come soon enough.

As for the livery.. its all a bit silly at the moment. And this is for a parent company that are very Brand aware.

With GBR just around the corner, paint them all in a white undercoat

 

[43096]

How about the opposite - rather than be absorbed into Southern, GatEx be subsumed into, and as another branch of, Thameslink?

Victoria --> Clapham --> East Croydon --> Gatwick Airport --> Semi-fast to Brighton

The talk of "absorbing into Southern" or into Thameslink is all a red herring - Southern, GatEx and Thameslink are all just brands of GTR.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Thameslink includes a number of routes, including Blackfriars to Sevenoaks - and Blackfriars is even less north-of-the-Thames than Victoria

But I take your point about GatEx following a Southern route.

Well there is that about Blackfriars to Sevenoaks, although that service does usually extend north to Welwyn Garden City during peak hours. Although one thing Thameslink isn't really supposed to do is terminate at Central London termini like London Victoria, where trains then can't extend north at peak times.

These trains continue to be lightly loaded generally. With the shortage of stock on Southern the vic to brightons need to call at Clapham Junction and East Croydon.

The end of the current 'gatwick express' can't come soon enough.

As for the livery.. its all a bit silly at the moment. And this is for a parent company that are very Brand aware.

With GBR just around the corner, paint them all in a white undercoat

That is a great point. It is a terrible use of train paths how they basically waste 2 of them on an airport express which is widely known to be more expensive. Given Southern is cheaper and now 3 times as frequent, if I was a traveller, I would take that any day.

If they could convert the existing path for GX to a standard Southern service to Brighton, that would have the added benefits of recreating a half-hourly direct service to Brighton from Clapham Junction in particular, and smoothing the load of people travelling from Victoria to Gatwick Airport if it's more evenly spread across all 8 services as it would be in such a scenario without any potentially reintroduced shuttles.

As with the liveries, that is a perfect point. While thankfully I know quite well what the operator is, I am sure some people have been successfully fooled out in plaes like Lewes in particular (given more Class 387s have operated on the East Coastway overall than the West Coastway) when they are expecting a green Southern train to take them to Brighton, not a red GX train, and I suppose the same could be true in reverse if the GX ended up being operated by a green class 377.

It also looks plain stupid in places like Southampton, where same problems apply AND where's its basically a painful reminder that there were once hourly direct trains to and from Gatwick, which Southern got rid of 2024 in, only leaving a token northbound service in the morning.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Why don’t they just run it as a standard Southern service to Brighton (calling at Clapham and maybe Croydon) and then advertise all eight trains per hour from Gatwick to Victoria as the “Gatwick express train,” as is done in Sydney. Sydney Central to Sydney Airport is advertised as the “Sydney Airport Train” at the airport and on billboards/the airport’s website, but it’s still the normal Sydney Trains service. Or a bit like the Merseyrail City Line - that’s what it’s advertised as but it’s a Northern service.

So the airport could advertise eight fast trains per hour to London, calling only at Croydon and Gatwick, branding it however they want, but using Southern services and Southern trains.

Then you also solve the problem of 75% of trains to Eastbourne and Southampton being randomly red.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Why don’t they just run it as a standard Southern service to Brighton (calling at Clapham and maybe Croydon) and then advertise all eight trains per hour from Gatwick to Victoria as the “Gatwick express train,” as is done in Sydney. Sydney Central to Sydney Airport is advertised as the “Sydney Airport Train” at the airport and on billboards/the airport’s website, but it’s still the normal Sydney Trains service. Or a bit like the Merseyrail City Line - that’s what it’s advertised as but it’s a Northern service.

So the airport could advertise eight fast trains per hour to London, calling only at Croydon and Gatwick, branding it however they want, but using Southern services and Southern trains.

Then you also solve the problem of 75% of trains to Eastbourne and Southampton being randomly red.

That is a perfect idea. They could have boards up saying which platform and when the next "Express train" to London Victoria will be, rather than specially advertising the Gatwick Express, where if one misses it, it is never in a million years worth waiting for. The same case would apply at London Victoria station as well. In the same way, at London Victoria, they would advertise what the next fast train to Gatwick is, and its final destination (E.G Portsmouth & Bognor) which gives a little bit more reference as to whether you are on the right platform and train. That way, shuttles could still run, and be considered at the same level.

They might as well also advertise "Express trains" both to and from London Bridge, as another slight naff with the Gatwick Express is that it only serves London Victoria, which is generally for the West End and nearby surroundings, whereas if you're in the City of London or that sort of area, it is better to go into London Bridge (or stations further on given its Thameslink only now), which also has fast trains to Gatwick which only call at East Croydon (given there is no major junction station on that leg of the BML justifiying almost every single fast train calling on the same level as Clapham Junction), thus meaning that it sometimes slightly faster to get into the heart of London for some airport travellers, given some of them will be visiting London for business trips in the City or Canary Wharf, making London Bridge more attractive for those sort of passengers.

I would propose in such a scenario that all 4 express trains, which are currently all 4 trains to Brighton are advertised as such, but excluding the 4 Redhill trains given they'll just get overtaken, making them worthless.

For example, the end result of that would be a board in the main concourse of Gatwick Airport saying "Next fast train to London Victoria/London Bridge/Cambridge/Bedford via London Bridge will arrive at platform X in Y minutes". Then at both London Victoria and London Bridge it would be "Next fast train to destination via Gatwick Airport will depart from platform X in Y minutes". In the case of Gatwick, you could potentially do it on a system of having a seperate board for London Victoria and London Bridge if that is too confusing for those who really just want a specific terminal. That would be roughly equivalent to the board up at Victoria which advertises the next Gatwick Express train, but only that.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Personally I think GatEx trains should stop at Clapham, but not Croydon, Croydon has loads of services to Gatwick.

Clapham is a hub that connects wider South London

 

[popeter45]

Would the current timetable be able to cope with the increased dwell times it would bring?

by the sounds of it the current timetable isnt at capacity at all so swapping to a less often timetable with longer dwell time may work better

 

[465fan]

In any event, if the question is "Should the GX be abolished?" then the answer is absolutely yes. Get rid of it. The Brighton Main Line is all the poorer for its existence, and it should just be a case of operating a semi-homogenous service via the Quarry lines either Southern from Victoria or Thameslink out of London Bridge, and then extending beyond Gatwick to whichever other destination (Portsmouth, Bognor, Littlehampton, Eastbourne, Brighton or whatever). A nice set of trains, up to every 3 minutes between Croydon and Gatwick, all being at least 8 but possibly 12 coaches, and that's great.

As part of the whole 'aviation expansion' malarkey involving Luton and Heathrow, they should start to wind Gatwick down a touch. Stansted is underused at the eastern end of the 'Growth Arc', and there's always places like Southampton (runway extended and actually very well-situated for the South Coast and wider South).

 

[cle]

Ideally they would all (and everything would) call at Clapham Junction and East Croydon.

If in the general Southern ‘turn up and go’ pool - then clockface at the 15m level doesn’t matter any more.

You have 2x Brighton as today. The other two paths could do something else entirely if they don’t fit. Or just shuttle to Gatwick but with the two calls. But timings don’t need to match if things all need to get jiggled or tweaked by a minute or two.

Agree that if making a choice, Croydon has TL services also.

I disagree on use of the word express. Real ones know London Bridge is faster than even GatEx - it’s the quickest zone 1 service by a minute or two - so it’s not reasonably true with Southern at all which adds another 5-6.

 

[Zomboid]

I think the thing is that the market for GX is not the likes of us, it's not really even for British people. Gatwick station is a busy place that could be quite intimidating for foreign visitors who might not be familiar with railways, or maybe even public transport, never mind the British railway system.
Having a nice clear service without any ambiguity as to where it goes for such people is really what it's function is now.

 

[stssts1985]

There’s been a real mix of rolling stock lately on the East Coastway line. Gatwick Express (GX) units continue to be the main traction on the Brighton–Ore service, as they have been for the past few years.


More recently, I’ve noticed GX units—alongside former Great Northern (GN) units—running on services between London Victoria and Eastbourne/Ore. These formations include mixed sets (GX + GN) or two GX units together. I’ve also seen Brighton–Ore services operated entirely by GN units.


Someone mentioned earlier that different branded ticket restrictions is “illegal,” but that doesn't seem to hold true in practice. On a GX service from Brighton to Victoria yesterday, the guard made repeated announcements that tickets marked "Not Gatwick Express," "Southern only," or "Thameslink only" were not valid. Interestingly, that particular train was formed of a former GN unit along with two GX units.


Also worth noting: when paying via contactless, fares differ depending on whether you're traveling on Gatwick Express, Southern, or Thameslink services. This aligns with paper ticketing too: “Any Permitted” tickets are issued to London Victoria - Bascially GATWICK EXPRESS, “Not Gatwick Express” tickets are typically valid to London Terminals - basically SOUTHERN, and while Thameslink tickets don’t explicitly say “Thameslink,” they’re issued to “London Thameslink.”


The idea of GX being a premium service has really lost its meaning. GX services now run through from Brighton (Monday to Saturday), which eliminates the previous longer waits at Gatwick (e.g. not so much waiting on platforms). However, they only run every 30 minutes now (compared to every 15 minutes pre-COVID) and aren’t even consistently operated with GX-branded trains anymore.


Personally, I think it might be time to scrap the separate GX tickets—firstly, for simplicity, especially for infrequent travelers arriving at Gatwick who must find this all very confusing. Secondly, from a capacity perspective: I’ve been on countless packed Southern Coastway services heading towards London from Gatwick, while GX trains are often much quieter—likely because Londoners have learned that GX fares are significantly higher.

 

[Wivenswold]

The whole point of the Gatwick Express brand seems somewhat redundant these days.

I appreciate it may make things a little easier for tourists, but there are plenty of big airports in Europe that don't have dedicated express services to the city centre.

Even in countries where I don't speak a word of the language, it's easy enough to see which trains are going to the city centre or the airport on the way home.

It's essentially a "Brighton Express" that also stops at Gatwick. Scrap the GX brand and the stupid, deliberately confusing ticketing.