NYMR: is diesel the way forward?

[50002Superb]

For reference I volunteer at the SVR. I've tried spin to diesel traction as part of the heritage experience, it rarely goes down well with 'normals'. I remembered one TTI turn behind a 50, and one passenger (in his 30s) said if he wanted to see a diesel he would have just gone to New Street.
A regular occurrence is helping passengers work out if they can fit in a ride behind steam when there's a mix of traction.
Diesel is probably more tolerated by the general public now compared to 15 years ago, but I emphasis the word 'tolerated'. They put up with some diesel as long as some steam is available.

This still feels like confirmation bias to me.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Is there any evidence to back up the preference of steam? I mean actual feedback from visitors?

I guess there are at least five types of customer, and probably more:

Steam Enthusiasts
Diesel Enthusiasts
Both
Tourists who have a preference
Tourists who don’t

I fall generally in category two but whenever I’m on holiday in the UK and we visit a pres line I fall into category five.

Families with disposable income, young children and a desire to see what looks like Thomas the Tank Engine on their TV.

 

[Zomboid]

A fair number of visitors will arrive at their heritage railway experience in a diesel powered car (that proportion will be reducing now, but petrol isn't that different), and that ubiquity means that internal combustion powered machines just aren't that special. At least not now - maybe when most vehicles on the road are electric they'll be more of a draw.
Steam locos are like nothing else you see in real life these days (even oil fired).

 

[HSTEd]

Oil firing would also lead to much lower labour requirements from a predominantly volunteer workforce, which may be less available in the future.

 

[Mike Machin]

Britain's indigenous coal industry has gone for good and relying on imported coal of variable quality from overseas is not only expensive, but incredibly bad from an environmental point-of-view. Steam will always be a major draw for the public, but going forward I feel that steam will increasingly become a 'high days and holidays' form of traction and this almost certainly be fuelled by oil or eventually from sort of reclaimed/recycled substance. At least one heritage railroad in America utilises refined and re-processed waste cooking oil and if heritage railways here were able to do the same it would definitely be a 'feather in the cap' for the heritage movement if it can demonstrate a responsible approach to environmental concerns.

Most younger people only know of coal as a filthy substance from the past which is largely responsible for the present-day climate emergency, so for heritage railways, being able to demonstrate good environmental practice can only be good for their public perception. Very soon now, burning coal will be as unacceptable as smoking, discrimination or drink-driving and the sooner heritage railways can get with the green agenda the better.

The public will always love steam, but they will demand a greener form of power and the railways which fail to adapt to changing attitudes will not have a long-term future.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Britain's indigenous coal industry has gone for good and relying on imported coal of variable quality from overseas is not only expensive, but incredibly bad from an environmental point-of-view. Steam will always be a major draw for the public, but going forward I feel that steam will increasingly become a 'high days and holidays' form of traction and this almost certainly be fuelled by oil or eventually from sort of reclaimed/recycled substance. At least one heritage railroad in America utilises refined and re-processed waste cooking oil and if heritage railways here were able to do the same it would definitely be a 'feather in the cap' for the heritage movement if it can demonstrate a responsible approach to environmental concerns.

Most younger people only know of coal as a filthy substance from the past which is largely responsible for the present-day climate emergency, so for heritage railways, being able to demonstrate good environmental practice can only be good for their public perception. Very soon now, burning coal will be as unacceptable as smoking, discrimination or drink-driving and the sooner heritage railways can get with the green agenda the better.

The public will always love steam, but they will demand a greener form of power and the railways which fail to adapt to changing attitudes will not have a long-term future.

Although some form of bio-coal could be worked into an environmentally friendly method of operation, with the feedstock grown on land owned by the supplier and double the quantity of feedstock turned into fuel is planted each year etc...

 

[50002Superb]

The popularity of Thomas has died massively in the last ten years within the demographic it’s aimed at.

Families with disposable income, young children and a desire to see what looks like Thomas the Tank Engine on their TV.

 

[mike57]

I think the point is being missed here, unless you have deep pockets experiencing steam traction is pretty much restricted to heritage railways. I for one would not want to lose that opportunity to interest and educate people. Its part of history and its hard to price on it, but in the same way as goverment funded major museums like the NRM contribute in ways which it hard to quantify so do heritage railways.

The NYMR are looking into oil firing, as an easier way to operate steam engines, and when experiencing a dry spell have to revert to diesel traction anyway owing to the fire risk.

For the larger operations I dont see any of them abandoning steam, thats one of the reasons for their existance.

I also take issue with people who prattle on about the environmental impact of heritage steam engines, its a tiny contributer, how many tons of coal does the whole UK heritage industry use in one year? I suspect one senior politician contributes as much CO2 in a year from their air miles as one of the large heritage railways. Tell politicians they have to pay for thier own jollies and I best the 'carbon footprint' of the average politician would be negligable. I also believe that we should retain at least one strategic source of coal mined within the UK. Recent events in Scunthorpe confirm that things can rapidly go out of control.

We really are bad at going for the low hanging fruit, with talk about 'decarbonising' a route like the far North Line, while diesel engines are being used on a daily basis under wires, and there are still large sections of the intercity network that are un-electrified. And as for moving passengers and freight to rail from road, most of the recent events have been going in the opposite direct, fares now considerably higher than the cost of driving for example.

A bit of a rant... Sorry

 

[HSTEd]

I also believe that we should retain at least one strategic source of coal mined within the UK. Recent events in Scunthorpe confirm that things can rapidly go out of control.

The only industry left that makes meaningful use of coal is the primary steel industry, and that is likely to move to gas fired direct reduction in the relatively near term (assuming it survives at all).

I can't see any meaningful strategic case for a coal facility to be retained.

 

[JGurney]

Steam locos are like nothing else you see in real life these days (even oil fired).

True, but would those people who specifically want to be hauled by a traditional steam loco be satisfied by an oil fired one, or would they consider that non-original?

 

[ThirteenArches]

It's called "greenstanding", puffing your environmental credentials while taking measures that do sod all, often at the expense of people who haven't got much of a voice. The Welsh Sennedd declared a moratorium on new road building a few years ago. And this stopped 60 mile 4 lane dual carriageway main roads, and tiny 2 mile bypasses that would have make small villages safe and pleasant to live in. There's talk of banning Diesel engines in canal boats. There are 30000 canal boats and 30 million road vehicles, 10 million of which are Diesel (sorry, that's just cars). Meanwhile there's a 10 year connection waiting list for carbon neutral power generation schemes.

As to the topic, I would probably not bother with heritage railways if they were not steam. But then I'm dubious about them anyway, my experience of steam 60+ years ago was not being pulled by industrial saddletanks (we saw those hauling coal wagons) and certainly not being pulled the other way by a Diesel.

 

[Zomboid]

True, but would those people who specifically want to be hauled by a traditional steam loco be satisfied by an oil fired one, or would they consider that non-original?

Only the pickiest of enthusiasts would care.

If coal is impossible to economically acquire then it'll be that or nothing. Personally I prefer coal because it smells nicer, but let's live in the real world...

 

[UP13]

My take on diesels and heritage railways...

Personally I love both steam and diesel (I also like electric). A few years ago a steam engine on the Watercress had failed so was replaced by the thumper unit. I was secretly glad as I never got a chance to go on.

My brother on the other hand gets very annoyed if there is a steam engine as he believes he has paid for a steam engine...

My youngest son loves diesel and electric trains, electric being his favourite, and he is mainly a huge London Underground/TfL fan. He loves modern traction as well as the heritage. He enjoyed going to his first diesel gala last year.

My take is that the general public prefers steam engines but doesn't care what steam engine is. They don't care about livery prototypical coaching etc. As long as they can see and hear a steam engine and the carriages are clean and comfortable, then all is good. Enthusiasts can sometimes lose sight of that.

Of course there are much younger generations who are growing up with diesel and electric. Even myself, I grew up in southern EMU territory and it is the old NSE era EMUs that I am most nostalgic for. As strange as it may seem, there will one day be a generation of adults bemoaning the loss of modern multiple units and class 66s etc.

 

[Sun Chariot]

There must be something about steam traction's visceral power, aroma or the captivating clanking, which draws the general public to heritage railways, to traction engine rallies and so on.
When I lived near Alton, agricultural rallies and Watercress Line alike, seemed more fillled with "nornals" enjoying steam power.

 

[johnny_t]

1. Most of the public probably will never understand the appeal of heritage diesel - the trains just seem too similar to modern ones: and

Some of that will come down to Rolling Stock though. A lot of the charm is in sitting in an old carriage and being transported back to just how comfy it was. Run an NYMR set with a 'dark green diesel with a nose' and the same non-enthusiasts who enjoy a steam train ride will probably be quite happy.

Having an old DMU vs a Pacer will probably have a similar effect.

 

[Krokodil]

I used to work on the Snowdon Mountain Railway. That was a line where most people come for the scenery and a minority are prepared to pay extra for steam.

My experience with other heritage railways though was that diesel locos were regarded with mild disgust by most punters, though DMUs had the advantage of being cheap to run and providing panoramic views. Most people wanted steam, though a Hunslet Austerity pulling a rake of Mk1s (preferably compartment stock) was good enough for them.

The solution to fire risk will largely be oil burning.