XC woes: what should the policy regarding first class on overcrowded services be?

[MatthewHutton]

Much as that's the preferred approach of those on this Forum (including myself), I think the vast majority of people see long distance trains and coaches as things you book like a plane and would actually prefer compulsory reservation, thus removing the stress of someone being in your seat. I think with this one has to be careful what one wishes for. This can be seen quite clearly by how Advances are now increasingly the main way of ticketing long distance services even where decently priced walk up fares exist.

Depends if you are a plane > train customer or a car > train customer.

Cars are very much turn up and go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends if you are a plane > train customer or a car > train customer.

Cars are very much turn up and go.

They are, but hardly anyone makes unplanned long distance journeys with any frequency. Most of them are planned, alongside arrangements for hotels or family visits and the likes (and if made by car would be similarly planned). As I said, the increasing preference for Advance fares makes this very clear.

I am part of the "hardly anyone" as are probably more people on this Forum than the general public, of course, and so don't prefer this approach myself, but it's really akin to putting one's head in a bucket of sand to say that the general public wouldn't prefer that approach in most cases. Also for the vast majority of the population trains are an adjunct to cars, so if they couldn't take the train they needed they'd be able to drive instead. The biggest criticism of TOCs you see on their Facebook feeds is of them having "oversold" the train, which could be why, with reservation made de-facto compulsory by the walk-up fare being so high, the LNER fare increase trial seems to be leading to increased customer satisfaction despite none of us on here liking it and despite it having heralded a fare increase pretty much across the board of around 30%.

Indeed one advantage of that approach is that, like the way many airlines will "bump" a low fare passenger in favour of someone who walks up and pays full fare at huge cost, it still allows you to buy the high priced Anytime fare if you absolutely must travel e.g. because of the oft-quoted situation of a family member being on their deathbed, unlike true compulsory reservation, but outside of such extenuating circumstances most people won't pay the swingeing Anytime fare.

 

[yorksrob]

They are, but hardly anyone makes unplanned long distance journeys with any frequency. Most of them are planned, alongside arrangements for hotels or family visits and the likes (and if made by car would be similarly planned). As I said, the increasing preference for Advance fares makes this very clear.

I am part of the "hardly anyone" as are probably more people on this Forum than the general public, of course, and so don't prefer this approach myself, but it's really akin to putting one's head in a bucket of sand to say that the general public wouldn't prefer that approach in most cases. Also for the vast majority of the population trains are an adjunct to cars, so if they couldn't take the train they needed they'd be able to drive instead. The biggest criticism of TOCs you see on their Facebook feeds is of them having "oversold" the train, which could be why, with reservation made de-facto compulsory by the walk-up fare being so high, the LNER fare increase trial seems to be leading to increased customer satisfaction despite none of us on here liking it and despite it having heralded a fare increase pretty much across the board of around 30%.

Just because one will generally plan every aspect of a long distance journey, doesn't mean that everyone is automatically prepared to nail down every leg of their journey.

Surely the best situation is to give everyone the opportunity to select a seat reservation on either a counted place AP or an open ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just because one will generally plan every aspect of a long distance journey, doesn't mean that everyone is automatically prepared to nail down every leg of their journey.

Advance ticket sales these days indicate otherwise.

Surely the best situation is to give everyone the opportunity to select a seat reservation on either a counted place AP or an open ticket.

The problem with this is that an overcrowded train is still unpleasant even if you have a reserved seat, and there's the stress of booting someone out of it too.

I genuinely think the views on here about compulsory (or effectively compulsory) reservation, including my own, do not reflect those of the general public nor are even slightly close to that.

 

[yorksrob]

Advance ticket sales these days indicate otherwise.



The problem with this is that an overcrowded train is still unpleasant even if you have a reserved seat, and there's the stress of booting someone out of it too.

I genuinely think the views on here about compulsory (or effectively compulsory) reservation, including my own, do not reflect those of the general public nor are even slightly close to that.

Yet people still buy open tickets. The demand is clearly there.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's a public service subsidised by the taxpayer, transporting people on what is a key commuter service out of Oxford should be the priority.
Even if it means the handful of First class passengers have a slightly uncomfortable journey so be it.
It is public transport
If you want your own private space get a car...

People in first class aren’t asking for their own private space.

It's the most subsidised of all the Intercity TOCs, and has known capacity issues, declassification is a quick win to add capacity without increasing costs

It does however impact revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet people still buy open tickets. The demand is clearly there.

On the WCML there often aren't Advances or they're poor value because they are more than half the price of an Off Peak Return. If the WCML's fare structure was more like the ECML's, I venture that might change - most passengers prioritise a combination of price and getting a seat.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yet people still buy open tickets. The demand is clearly there.

Quite often that’s because there are no Advance fares left. Even so, for a very long time Advance bookings have been very much the significant majority of long distance TOC sales.

There really are very few people travelling 100 miles plus on a whim on the day, who want to Lindy Walk their way to the destination and do the same on the return. It’s very much a niche activity now.

 

[brad465]

Is first needed for business travel?

Companies will only pay for standard fares

I believe some companies allow first class if the staff are able to work on the train more productively than if in standard. However, I doubt XC first class is capable of doing this, as their Wifi is dire and poor reception is common along much of their routes.

 

[yorksrob]

On the WCML there often aren't Advances or they're poor value because they are more than half the price of an Off Peak Return. If the WCML's fare structure was more like the ECML's, I venture that might change - most passengers prioritise a combination of price and getting a seat.

You mean the East Coast, where open off peak tickets have had to be removed in a faux "trial" ?

I don't recall ECML passengers calling for off peak fares to be removed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2025 ==

Quite often that’s because there are no Advance fares left. Even so, for a very long time Advance bookings have been very much the significant majority of long distance TOC sales.

There really are very few people travelling 100 miles plus on a whim on the day, who want to Lindy Walk their way to the destination and do the same on the return. It’s very much a niche activity now.

Quite often but not always.

And you're ignoring my point that just because someone has planned to stay a long way away, it doesn't mean that they want to set their journey in stone.

 

[MatthewHutton]

Just because one will generally plan every aspect of a long distance journey, doesn't mean that everyone is automatically prepared to nail down every leg of their journey.

Surely the best situation is to give everyone the opportunity to select a seat reservation on either a counted place AP or an open ticket.

Return trips are very often in my experience not particularly nailed down.

On the WCML there often aren't Advances or they're poor value because they are more than half the price of an Off Peak Return. If the WCML's fare structure was more like the ECML's, I venture that might change - most passengers prioritise a combination of price and getting a seat.

Perhaps because the railway is doing a weak job of attracting passengers who have access to a comfortable car?

A lot of the long distance express services are only really compelling to go to/from London.

 

[daodao]

Perhaps because the railway is doing a weak job of attracting passengers who have access to a comfortable car?

A lot of the long distance express services are only really compelling to go to/from London.

Which is why first class is only needed on long distance express services to/from London, and not on XC (or TPE and TfW for that matter).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps because the railway is doing a weak job of attracting passengers who have access to a comfortable car?

XC obviously don't need to attract anyone as they're already overcrowded

 

[Jan Mayen]

Which is why first class is only needed on long distance express services to/from London, and not on XC (or TPE and TfW for that matter).

I'd use First Class on local services, providing the accommodation was better and the fare reasonable.

 

[MatthewHutton]

XC obviously don't need to attract anyone as they're already overcrowded

Haha!

But as the railway is very heavy on the fixed cost side they should do everything they can to handle demand

 

[duffield]

Which is why first class is only needed on long distance express services to/from London, and not on XC (or TPE and TfW for that matter).

In my opinion flows like Bristol to Leeds, or Birmingham to York, or Liverpool to Manchester, Leeds, York and Newcastle need first class just as much as many London services. Liverpool to Newcastle or Hull has only recently gained a class 802 service with first class and whenever I travel, first is busy even off peak. XC first nearly always seems busy.

There's clear demand there, but just because these trains don't go to London, we're told it's "not needed".

 

[Killingworth]

In my opinion flows like Bristol to Leeds, or Birmingham to York, or Liverpool to Manchester, Leeds, York and Newcastle need first class just as much as many London services. Liverpool to Newcastle or Hull has only recently gained a class 802 service with first class and whenever I travel, first is busy even off peak. XC first nearly always seems busy.

There's clear demand there, but just because these trains don't go to London, we're told it's "not needed".

I agree. Seatfrog is successfully filling many XC first class seats. Last time I travelled first it was full and the discount had not been great. Other times no upgrades were avaliable.

I take issue with the complexity of ticketing procedures coupled with the unreliability of XC carriage provision. Split ticketing and Seatfrog can give the seasoned regular traveller big savings that are missed by the less well aware. They can't help when a planned 8 or 9 coach train rolls up as 4 or 5 - or is cancelled throwing all onto the following train.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Which 'senior people' have any power here? The service is specified by the DfT within the constraints of funding and the available rolling stock.

The best that 'senior people' can do is make some sort of case to the DfT, and in turn Treasury, to try to make things better, but ultimately it is always going to hit a funding barrier.

How about a new drinking game? Take a shot every time the Treasury ruins something.

 

[ChrisC]

I wonder how many passengers are deterred from travelling by train at all by the increasing necessit of having to make a reservation and the prospect of finding it difficult to get a seat on a crowded train. Throughout all of my life, nearly all of my journeys, even long-distance ones have been very much a 'spur of the moment' decision where I need to travel at a moment's notice. I need to be able to go on the app, sort-out a ticket and rock-up at the station instantly, and for many years just strolling into a station and gettin g on a train was completely normal.

The inability to do this has meant that I don't normally even think of trains as a possible form of passenger transport - it's just too inconvenient.

I never these days buy Advance tickets for long distance travel because I find the worry of missing the train too stressful. Having to rely on an hourly bus to reach the station, and it not being unknown for the bus on occasions not to turn up, it‘s just not worth it. I already have to allow up 90 minutes from leaving home before the train departure time without adding another hour just in case the bus doesn’t turn up! Since getting my Senior Railcard I have found that it brings the price of flexible Off Peak travel down to an acceptable price. I also like the flexibility to break my journey, travel at a slightly different time, even change route planned where permitted, if there are delays.

As far as XC are concerned, since the HST was withdrawn which used to depart from Derby to Plymouth at around 10.30am, I have avoided taking holidays down in Devon and Cornwall. I’m not against travelling first class and almost always do so on EMR between Nottingham and London using a Super Off Peak Return. However, even with split ticketing I find XC first class walk up fares somewhat excessive.

 

[Snow1964]

However, even with split ticketing I find XC first class walk up fares somewhat excessive.

Another crazy idea by XC, price their tickets with no correlation to capacity.

Have stupidly wide ratio between standard and first price, then find the occupancy levels of the two classes is not balanced. Ideally would want both classes around 80-90% busy to maximise revenue without off-putting customers due to crowding.

Seatfrog wouldn't work if XC priced tickets in correct first/standard proportions to reflect the relative number of seats in each class on the train.