XC woes: what should the policy regarding first class on overcrowded services be?

[cactustwirly]

It’s a designated first class area, so unless in exceptional circumstances, I fail to see why those who have paid extra for the premium should fail to receive the service so that people who haven’t can stand in part of the first class carriage.


I would have had issue if I were one of the people that had paid for the privilege of using first class; I hope the extra was reimbursed.

It's a public service subsidised by the taxpayer, transporting people on what is a key commuter service out of Oxford should be the priority.
Even if it means the handful of First class passengers have a slightly uncomfortable journey so be it.
It is public transport
If you want your own private space get a car...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2025 ==

Because that's very mature and helpful of you..

Yes I suspect Standard Class pax were denied standing by the front vestibule because of it's close proximity to the galley- The First Class host won't want people stood in their way when they're trying to prepare food and drink or stock their trolley.

Surely the First Class host can wait until Banbury to do this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2025 ==

If XC ever got an IET fleet, or something else that significantly increase the number of seats for the same carriage count, then both a suitable first class and a higher capacity standard class could be achieved. You could also have carriages that partition first and standard, like on other IETs.

4-car Voyager's in particular are really bad in only having 3 standard cars, which can't really be retrofitted with a partition or removal of 1st entirely; if they had 5s and 9s they can have better 1sttandard ratios as well as greater capacity overall.

I just question the need for 1st class, a lot of journeys are short distances, like Oxford to Banbury, or Birmingham to Derby etc

It's the most subsidised of all the Intercity TOCs, and has known capacity issues, declassification is a quick win to add capacity without increasing costs

 

[tomoufc]

I think you need to be very careful here, unless you are travelling at a weekend when special weekend upgrades are available travelling on a ticket type other than Advance.

CrossCountry do occasionally use a revenue protection contractor called Transport Investigations Ltd and you can be prosecuted for failing to purchase the upgrade before boarding (if facilities exist to do so). Simply taking the chance to "pay when challenged" is an offence, and if you are not asked for money, you are still liable to make a reasonable effort to pay the correct fare, no matter how strongly you feel about the situation.

They do not need to prove intent - they only need to prove ticket facilities existed at the time of boarding and that you occupied a first class seat or stood in a first class carriage or corridor/vestibule with a standard class ticket.

Actually I believe you are entitled to excess a non-advance ticket onboard. I don’t think revenue protection can do anything in that case, apart from assist you with that. Not your fault if it’s so busy the guard can’t get round. (Hope this isn’t too off topic!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually I believe you are entitled to upgrade a non-advance ticket onboard. I don’t think revenue protection can do anything in that case, apart from assist you with that. Not your fault if it’s so busy the guard can’t get round.

This used to be the case but hasn't been for a while, precisely because of the "pay when challenged" thing you mentioned. It is only allowed where a specific product e.g. Weekend First or Avanti Standard Premium is offered, intended to be used as an upgrade only subject to seats being available.

 

[tomoufc]

This used to be the case but hasn't been for a while, precisely because of the "pay when challenged" thing you mentioned. It is only allowed where a specific product e.g. Weekend First or Avanti Standard Premium is offered, intended to be used as an upgrade only subject to seats being available.

Ah OK. I was going by the forum’s ticketing guide, but what you’re suggesting, I think is that XC have brought in their own policy to supersede standard practice, although I haven’t been able to find any evidence of that through Google searches. Seems madness that you can’t excess onboard if you’re really suffering.

 

[greyman42]

Do XC have a policy of not declassifying first class these days?

No.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah OK. I was going by the forum’s ticketing guide, but what you’re suggesting, I think is that XC have brought in their own policy to supersede standard practice, although I haven’t been able to find any evidence of that through Google searches. Seems madness that you can’t excess onboard if you’re really suffering.

Replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/upgrading-from-standard-to-first.284769/#post-7246761

 

[daodao]

Removing all first class from all XC services would increase capacity on the fairly short trains used by this franchise. As the services don't go to London, there is much less need to provide first-class accommodation for business travellers. It isn't provided on most XC services to Cardiff.

 

[Snow1964]

There is no mechanism to do this. If one was speccing a wholly new ticketing and retail system allowing train crew to scan a ticket and hit "refund" would be a useful feature (perhaps with an automatic process for someone to approve it in the back office), but as thing are the only way for it to be done is for the passenger to claim the (partial) refund from the retailer.

I do think there is a bit of a circular problem here, if you don't have easy method of refunding the extra that first class ticket holders have paid, then downgrading first class accommodation shouldn't happen, because it creates messy refunding process.

On the other hand if you don't do it occasionally then severe crowding can be different problem.

Of course there is a third way, offer to upgrade and collect the extra revenue rather than downgrade the accommodation (but this requires the train crew to sell upgrades, but some staff clearly aren't very motivated to do this as part of their paid role.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2025 ==

Removing all first class from all XC services would increase capacity on the fairly short trains used by this franchise. As the services don't go to London, there is much less need to provide first-class accommodation for business travellers. It isn't provided on most XC services to Cardiff.

Another circular reasoning, if don't provide for business travel, wont be any because it's not available.

I have retired so not up to speed on business travel, but my daughter works in a national firm with multiple offices, and every 6 months they meet, but nowadays it rotates, has been London, Bristol, Birmingham, think next one is Manchester or Leeds, suggests the days of business travel only being to London has gone, it is now just as likely to be a big provincial city.
.

 

[cactustwirly]

I do think there is a bit of a circular problem here, if you don't have easy method of refunding the extra that first class ticket holders have paid, then downgrading first class accommodation shouldn't happen, because it creates messy refunding process.

On the other hand if you don't do it occasionally then severe crowding can be different problem.

Of course there is a third way, offer to upgrade and collect the extra revenue rather than downgrade the accommodation (but this requires the train crew to sell upgrades, but some staff clearly aren't very motivated to do this as part of their paid role.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2025 ==


Another circular reasoning, if don't provide for business travel, wont be any because it's not available.

I have retired so not up to speed on business travel, but my daughter works in a national firm with multiple offices, and every 6 months they meet, but nowadays it rotates, has been London, Bristol, Birmingham, think next one is Manchester or Leeds, suggests the days of business travel only being to London has gone, it is now just as likely to be a big provincial city.
.

Is first needed for business travel?

Companies will only pay for standard fares

 

[Falcon1200]

I just question the need for 1st class, a lot of journeys are short distances, like Oxford to Banbury, or Birmingham to Derby etc

Yes, but the same train is also providing vital longer distance connections between major cities! Which is of course a conundrum of the XC operation.

Regarding the OP's experience, I have alighted at Oxford from northbound XC services at that time, and have been shocked at the number of people trying to board, and their resulting travel experience. Where are they all going?!!

 

[voyagerdude220]

Where are they all going?!!

As you've said yourself, it doesn't help that Cross Country trains attract many different types of customers- including those just doing relatively short journeys (e.g. Oxford to Banbury) alongside your Bournemouth to Manchester pax etc.

I can certainly see the demand for extra Standard Class seats- but I'm sure there are still some services where First Class is well utilised.

I was going to suggest maybe Cross Country could look into converting say half of the First Class carriage (the half closest to the Toilet) to Standard Class- but I don't think the addition of such a small number of Standard seats would be worth it.

Maybe keep First Class seating as it is and offer "Standard Premium" but again I don't see Cross Country doing this.

 

[BrianW]

Moderator note: Split from

Avanti Class 221s to Cross Country

Somewhere I read that there was a suggestion of 46 services being taken out of the timetable.. The only place I would have seen that was in one of these forums. Maybe they won't run 170s on Sundays. I have seen the rumour about no 170s on Sundays and think it is somwhat incorrect. If XC...

www.railforums.co.uk

More Crosscountry woes today.

This has been a problem for over fifteen years but no-one seems to care.

This is it in a nutshell.
People with ticket will travel despite the crush, standing all the way if necessary, and whinge, as I would. Some may complain formally, even write to their MP, to what effect?
I took a journey on Saturday with XC Plymouth- Birmingham, in an Edinburgh-bound 4-car train, returning same day from Sheffield in what (from the WC condition) seemed to be the same 4-car set returning from Edinburgh. Comfortable going out; full and standing from Sheffield to Birmingham and filling again Temple Meads to Taunton. Much as I would like to have room to stretch and have trolley service to my seat, I can't see how planners can be expected to match service to this variable loading. Of course I would like all these trains to be 9-car, and I did see a lot standing out-of-use in sidings ... but at what cost to carry a lot of stale air? Standard fare passengers pay the same whether seated or standing- captive.

 

[GoneSouth]

On a recent trip from Devon to Derby with all services running to schedule, first class was full (and standing heading south) mid-afternoon. My ticket cost about £300. XC won’t be scrapping first class anytime soon.

Why would anybody pay £300 to stand. That’s absurd. Might as well get a taxi which would probably take about the same time, go when you want it to rather than when some dft bureaucrat wants it to go stop for refreshments at somewhere that sells what you want to eat or drink, you’d have a seat, you can control the temperature inside The vehicle and you don’t have to listen to 50 other travellers talking on their phone.

Or…

You could pay half the price and stand in STANDard class

 

[Teapot42]

Of course I would like all these trains to be 9-car, and I did see a lot standing out-of-use in sidings ... but at what cost to carry a lot of stale air?

I'd be asking how many people are put off by the uncertainty of being able to get a seat, or being in a crowded train and not able to relax and enjoy not having to drive. Running 9 cars will cost more, but you'd attract more passengers. It also makes planning a lot easier if everything is the same.

Of course, had the necessary infrastructure investment been made over the last 50-60 years then there would be many more paths available and you could, for example, run trains that only called at major stations interspersed with stoppers at a frequency high enough that it's not inconvenient to change at a major station to get to a smaller destination. That way capacity could be maximised by reducing overall journey time, in turn allowing more frequent services with less rolling stock.

 

[JonathanH]

Of course, had the necessary infrastructure investment been made over the last 50-60 years then there would be many more paths available and you could, for example, run trains that only called at major stations interspersed with stoppers at a frequency high enough that it's not inconvenient to change at a major station to get to a smaller destination.

Most of the relevant lines have always been two track though, so that would have been very significant infrastructure investment. It shouldn't be forgotten that a substantial infrastructure investment on two parts of the X has been cancelled.

 

[Teapot42]

Most of the relevant lines have always been two track though, so that would have been very significant infrastructure investment. It shouldn't be forgotten that a substantial infrastructure investment on two parts of the X has been cancelled.

Just for clarity, do you mean going from two track to four track would be very significant investment? (As that is part of what I'm talking about)

I'd agree, but the benefits of doing so would be significant. I suspect modal shift to road would have been less, for example.

Beyond that, things like rebuilding stations, building flyovers, electrification of all main lines, things that should have been done before I was born (mid 70s), not just being talked about now. We'd not be having this conversation if past generations had invested properly, and we'll still be having this conversation in another 50 years, as it gets progressively more expensive to do such an upgrade as towns and cities get more developed and built up.

One thing that made me think of this - I've just been to the Netherlands, and in Delft they've completely rebuild the station underground. It's much more modern and accessible, and by burying the track through the town centre they've opened the area up massively and made much more inviting and pleasant public realm. We'd never even contemplate something like that in this country.

 

[Xavi]

Why would anybody pay £300 to stand

Who said I was standing? Pity those who were though. £300 to be able to work on £millions of business whilst on the move - a no brainer.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd get on and tell them to call the Police if they had an issue with it. Only takes one passenger to say enough is enough and the staff will quickly realise they need to apply common sense.

No, it only takes one passenger to say “call the police” and they call the police. Good way to terminate your journey to be honest.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, but the same train is also providing vital longer distance connections between major cities! Which is of course a conundrum of the XC operation.

Regarding the OP's experience, I have alighted at Oxford from northbound XC services at that time, and have been shocked at the number of people trying to board, and their resulting travel experience. Where are they all going?!!

XC are the only operator to north Banbury and Leamington, as well as Birmingham

Most people are only travelling for an hour or so

Basically Reading/Oxford to Birmingham, Bournemouth to Reading etc

Liverpool to Norwich doesn't have firsr

 

[JonathanH]

Beyond that, things like rebuilding stations, building flyovers, electrification of all main lines, things that should have been done before I was born (mid 70s), not just being talked about now.

The railway wasn't really in a expansionist phase in that period. It is easier to say in hindsight than in practice. When CrossCountry ran one train an hour on its routes, and sometimes less, the conflict between fast trains, slow trains and freight was not as much of an issue as it is now.

Just for clarity, do you mean going from two track to four track would be very significant investment? (As that is part of what I'm talking about)

Yes, because it often involves buying up residential or commerical property where the existing railway runs through narrow corridors.

 

[yorksrob]

Meanwhile in continents Europe they get nice new long trains with features that long distance trains USED to have here but no longer do…

XC could soon have nice long trains if the soon to be redundant 222's were seconded to their services.

Will our industry structure allow it though.

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XC are the only operator to north Banbury and Leamington, as well as Birmingham

Most people are only travelling for an hour or so

Basically Reading/Oxford to Birmingham, Bournemouth to Reading etc

Liverpool to Norwich doesn't have firsr

I remember having the same thing with mk2's in the noughties and thinking Birmingham - Reading needed a local service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2025 ==

This is it in a nutshell.
People with ticket will travel despite the crush, standing all the way if necessary, and whinge, as I would. Some may complain formally, even write to their MP, to what effect?
I took a journey on Saturday with XC Plymouth- Birmingham, in an Edinburgh-bound 4-car train, returning same day from Sheffield in what (from the WC condition) seemed to be the same 4-car set returning from Edinburgh. Comfortable going out; full and standing from Sheffield to Birmingham and filling again Temple Meads to Taunton. Much as I would like to have room to stretch and have trolley service to my seat, I can't see how planners can be expected to match service to this variable loading. Of course I would like all these trains to be 9-car, and I did see a lot standing out-of-use in sidings ... but at what cost to carry a lot of stale air? Standard fare passengers pay the same whether seated or standing- captive.

Of course, in a system where off-peak walk on fares are available, some passengers will chose to delay their departure to a later, less crowded train (I certainly have).

Of course, it remains to be seen for how long the Establishment (and its stooges in the industry) allow for this option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2025 ==

I'd be asking how many people are put off by the uncertainty of being able to get a seat, or being in a crowded train and not able to relax and enjoy not having to drive. Running 9 cars will cost more, but you'd attract more passengers. It also makes planning a lot easier if everything is the same.

Of course, had the necessary infrastructure investment been made over the last 50-60 years then there would be many more paths available and you could, for example, run trains that only called at major stations interspersed with stoppers at a frequency high enough that it's not inconvenient to change at a major station to get to a smaller destination. That way capacity could be maximised by reducing overall journey time, in turn allowing more frequent services with less rolling stock.

Given that we're talking four and five carriage trains here, it seems that its been a lack of rolling stock that's been the issue, rather than infrastructure.

 

[stuu]

Beyond that, things like rebuilding stations, building flyovers, electrification of all main lines, things that should have been done before I was born (mid 70s), not just being talked about now. We'd not be having this conversation if past generations had invested properly, and we'll still be having this conversation in another 50 years, as it gets progressively more expensive to do such an upgrade as towns and cities get more developed and built up.

"Past generations" thought rail was dead beyond a few limited applications - the idea of investing because in the 30 years time there would be more demand would have sounded irrational then, just as it would sound irrational now if you proposed something similar for what might be considered a dead technology.

An imperfect analogy is the notion that people would start writing letters to each other rather than using WhatsApp, so we should be investing in the post office. No one would believe that, which is pretty much the position in ~1970 re private cars and rail travel

 

[Indigo Soup]

The railway should be there for primarily moving people from A to B. First class on a 4 or even 5 carriage train is absurd.

No, First Class on a too-short train is absurd. There are times when First Class on a two-car or three-car train is entirely appropriate - and times when a twelve-car all-Standard train is entirely appropriate.

As the services don't go to London, there is much less need to provide first-class accommodation for business travellers.

Ah yes, the old 'only people going to London deserve decent trains' approach.

I do make occasional (~6 months or so) very long distance business trips, by rail if possible. XC would be the obvious choice for my route, if it wasn't overcrowded and slow. But the First Class business market has largely gone away as companies have cut travel costs - partly (though not mostly) because rail operators have jacked up First Class prices to extract money from the leisure market. I suspect the total number of business travellers may actually have gone up as more people work in the service sector and are expected to visit offices/clients in different locations. Certainly even ten years ago my job would have expected me to move the length of the UK if I wanted it!

 

[MatthewHutton]

XC could soon have nice long trains if the soon to be redundant 222's were seconded to their services.

Will our industry structure allow it though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2025 ==



I remember having the same thing with mk2's in the noughties and thinking Birmingham - Reading needed a local service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2025 ==



Of course, in a system where off-peak walk on fares are available, some passengers will chose to delay their departure to a later, less crowded train (I certainly have).

Of course, it remains to be seen for how long the Establishment (and its stooges in the industry) allow for this option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2025 ==



Given that we're talking four and five carriage trains here, it seems that its been a lack of rolling stock that's been the issue, rather than infrastructure.

Yes. I mean cross country services clearly should be 8-10 cars long in general and enough rolling stock should be bought to enable that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, First Class on a too-short train is absurd. There are times when First Class on a two-car or three-car train is entirely appropriate - and times when a twelve-car all-Standard train is entirely appropriate.

And thus we circle back to "XC don't have enough rolling stock", which is the root of all this.

It should definitely be possible, on a long distance train journey, to pay extra for additional comfort.

It should equally not be necessary to pay that in order to get a seat on a long distance train (or to travel at all, if* compulsory reservations were applied).

* Of all the TOCs that do the fake compulsory reservations thing, I remain surprised that XC don't when they are probably the ones with the least weak (!) case for it. I guess they don't because it would mean turning away a lot of business, forcing the issue to be addressed properly.

 

[MatthewHutton]

.

 

[Indigo Soup]

And thus we circle back to "XC don't have enough rolling stock", which is the root of all this.

Well, one of the roots. The other is the lack of clarity about what XC is actually for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, one of the roots. The other is the lack of clarity about what XC is actually for.

True, but that too loops round to rolling stock again, because if XC is primarily for overlapping short journeys with the ability to do long ones as well (like e.g. the Liverpool to Norwich service) then it has the *wrong* rolling stock and would be better off with something with wide doors at thirds/quarters and standbacks in order to enable the comfortable(ish) carrying of high standee loads in the busy core areas. Something more like a longer 125mph version of the Class 195 (or a diesel or bimode 730/2) though maybe with a first class area. Voyagers are about the worst design of any current UK rolling stock for carrying standees, with narrow aisles, low ceilings and no air conditioning in the vestibules.

 

[Mike Machin]

I wonder how many passengers are deterred from travelling by train at all by the increasing necessit of having to make a reservation and the prospect of finding it difficult to get a seat on a crowded train. Throughout all of my life, nearly all of my journeys, even long-distance ones have been very much a 'spur of the moment' decision where I need to travel at a moment's notice. I need to be able to go on the app, sort-out a ticket and rock-up at the station instantly, and for many years just strolling into a station and gettin g on a train was completely normal.

The inability to do this has meant that I don't normally even think of trains as a possible form of passenger transport - it's just too inconvenient.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder how many passengers are deterred from travelling by train at all by the increasing necessit of having to make a reservation and the prospect of finding it difficult to get a seat on a crowded train. Throughout all of my life, nearly all of my journeys, even long-distance ones have been very much a 'spur of the moment' decision where I need to travel at a moment's notice. I need to be able to go on the app, sort-out a ticket and rock-up at the station instantly, and for many years just strolling into a station and gettin g on a train was completely normal.

The inability to do this has meant that I don't normally even think of trains as a possible form of passenger transport - it's just too inconvenient.

Much as that's the preferred approach of those on this Forum (including myself), I think the vast majority of people see long distance trains and coaches as things you book like a plane and would actually prefer compulsory reservation, thus removing the stress of someone being in your seat. I think with this one has to be careful what one wishes for. This can be seen quite clearly by how Advances are now increasingly the main way of ticketing long distance services even where decently priced walk up fares exist.