XC Voyager Refurbishment

[Bletchleyite]

Even the ones in First Class?
I think they're great.

The seat frames are all originals in both classes on the Avanti units. The covers and (I think) cushions were replaced when Avanti refurbished them. The old First Class ones were indeed quite good, though on the Pendolino they've ruined them in my eyes by making the headrests protrude into the back of my neck, as a result of which I no longer upgrade.

The refurb also installs LEANs in first class.

 

[voyagerdude220]

The seat frames are all originals in both classes on the Avanti units. The covers and (I think) cushions were replaced when Avanti refurbished them. The old First Class ones were indeed quite good, though on the Pendolino they've ruined them in my eyes by making the headrests protrude into the back of my neck, as a result of which I no longer upgrade.

The refurb also installs LEANs in first class.

Ok thank you.

 

[AJDesiro]

The seats are being replaced but with the FISA LEAN which is quite thick-backed, about the same as the current seats, so there will be very little if any gain in legroom.

In all fairness, having travelled on the refurbished 170/1 with the same seats, the legroom is much better than the original interior, despite them being the same layout. It’s nowhere near as bad as say the 196s. For reference I’m 6’ and my knees would be jammed against the back of the old seats regularly.

It also helps that with the seats not being cantilevered on these units, legroom is already improved. The seats are quite high up as well, meaning that legs can go diagonally before they touch the back of the seat (see attached).

View attachment 1744659895894.jpeg

 

[Bletchleyite]

In all fairness, having travelled on the refurbished 170/1 with the same seats, the legroom is much better than the original interior, despite them being the same layout. It’s nowhere near as bad as say the 196s. For reference I’m 6’ and my knees would be jammed against the back of the old seats regularly.

It also helps that with the seats not being cantilevered on these units, legroom is already improved. The seats are quite high up as well, meaning that legs can go diagonally before they touch the back of the seat (see attached).

View attachment 178349

Are all the XC 170s of the same layout, or are you possibly comparing an ex ScotRail unit (low density) with an ex Midland unit (high density)?

It is possible they're better for some, though, but personally I find them poor for legroom on both the 196 and FLIRTs.

 

[AJDesiro]

Are all the XC 170s of the same layout, or are you possibly comparing an ex ScotRail unit (low density) with an ex Midland unit (high density)?

It is possible they're better for some, though, but personally I find them poor for legroom on both the 196 and FLIRTs.

It’s a 170/1 so it’s one of the ex-Midland units, I’ve not been on one of the ex-ScotRail units in almost 3 years… I agree that the legroom isn’t great on the 196s, and to a lesser extent the FLIRTs, however I can confidently attest that it was an improvement on the 170s to the prior layout. It probably won’t be as substantial on the voyagers, however the niche does disappear towards the bottom of the seats, something the current Grupo Anatolin seats don’t have. And, it would of course have been better for legroom if they’d gone for the Transcal 390 seats, or even maybe the 197 Sophia variant.

 

[tfw756rider]

It’s a 170/1 so it’s one of the ex-Midland units, I’ve not been on one of the ex-ScotRail units in almost 3 years… I agree that the legroom isn’t great on the 196s, and to a lesser extent the FLIRTs, however I can confidently attest that it was an improvement on the 170s to the prior layout. It probably won’t be as substantial on the voyagers, however the niche does disappear towards the bottom of the seats, something the current Grupo Anatolin seats don’t have. And, it would of course have been better for legroom if they’d gone for the Transcal 390 seats, or even maybe the 197 Sophia variant.

What are Grupo Anatolin seats and Transcal 390 seats?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are Grupo Anatolin seats

The original metal-backed seats found in some 170s.

and Transcal 390 seats?

The seat found in Pendolinos and Lumo and Avanti 80x.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What are Grupo Anatolin seats

The original metal-backed seats found in some 170s

No they’re not. Antolin-Laire seats are the original seats from Pendolinos and Voyagers. The metal-backed seats of 170s with the huge heavy pull down tables are Lazarini.

 

[tfw756rider]

No they’re not. Antolin-Laire seats are the original seats from Pendolinos and Voyagers. The metal-backed seats of 170s with the huge heavy pull down tables are Lazarini.

That is correct, Chapman and Lazarini, and now FISA Lean. I think @Bletchleyite was getting his italian manufacturers mixed up. Group Antolin made the red and blue seats you see on XC Voyagers today, and formerly on Pendolinos (still existant in First/SP)

Thanks

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thanks for the quick reply So the Transcal seats are the current (not original) 390 seats, just to be clear. And I had never heard of Grupo Anatolin seats in 170s (only Lazzerini and Chapman), so I'm a bit confused there. How are the names of some of these manufacturers even found out?

That is correct, Chapman and Lazarini, and now FISA Lean. I think @Bletchleyite was getting his italian manufacturers mixed up. Group Antolin made the red and blue seats you see on XC Voyagers today, and formerly on Pendolinos (still existant in First/SP)

 

[Bletchleyite]

No they’re not. Antolin-Laire seats are the original seats from Pendolinos and Voyagers. The metal-backed seats of 170s with the huge heavy pull down tables are Lazarini.

Sorry, my confusion, thanks.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sorry, my confusion, thanks.

Easily done.

 

[Jozhua]

Normal people like seats with a thicker back - it makes them more comfortable.

Legroom is a big issue for us taller folks - makes it very difficult to get comfortable and often forces you to spread your knees to do so - impacting the comfort of your neighbours...

I also don't think you need a thicker back to make the seat more comfortable if you choose the right cushioning. I find the current XC seats aren't very comfortable as is!

I mean, you're lucky to get a seat anyway on XC, so their comfort is somewhat irrelevant.

 

[GoneSouth]

Legroom is a big issue for us taller folks - makes it very difficult to get comfortable and often forces you to spread your knees to do so - impacting the comfort of your neighbours...

I also don't think you need a thicker back to make the seat more comfortable if you choose the right cushioning. I find the current XC seats aren't very comfortable as is!

I mean, you're lucky to get a seat anyway on XC, so their comfort is somewhat irrelevant.

This shows just how divisive the seat discussion is. I think Voyagers have the most comfortable seat of any train on the network, and I use Northern, XC, West Midlands, Avanti, GWR, Elizabeth Line, southern, TfW, TPE and Thameslink. That gives me a fair variety to choose from and the voyager wins for comfort. Just a shame about the company that run the voyagers, they’re terrible!

 

[The Ham]

This shows just how divisive the seat discussion is. I think Voyagers have the most comfortable seat of any train on the network, and I use Northern, XC, West Midlands, Avanti, GWR, Elizabeth Line, southern, TfW, TPE and Thameslink. That gives me a fair variety to choose from and the voyager wins for comfort. Just a shame about the company that run the voyagers, they’re terrible!

Seat comfort is always going to be a personal preference thing.

Where the debate on seats gets near universal support is that there should be more seats available on routes served by XC services (either more per train or more trains - especially where services have been cut)

(Even how to deliver that has proponents with different views).

 

[Goldfish62]

Seat comfort is always going to be a personal preference thing.

Indeed. Personally I find the standard class seats in Voyager absolutely awful (on the odd occasion I actually get a seat), only trumped in the discomfort league by the dreaded Fainsa Sofias in IETs.

The Fisa LEAN2 seats will be a distinct improvement. The ones fitted on the Class 458/4s are great.

 

[tfw756rider]

Indeed. Personally I find the standard class seats in Voyager absolutely awful (on the odd occasion I actually get a seat), only trumped in the discomfort league by the dreaded Fainsa Sofias in IETs.

The Fisa LEAN2 seats will be a distinct improvement. The ones fitted on the Class 458/4s are great.

What's the difference between the Lean 2 and the original Lean?

 

[superalbs]

What's the difference between the Lean 2 and the original Lean?

Not sure, but we don't have LEAN2 in the UK yet.

 

[tfw756rider]

Not sure, but we don't have LEAN2 in the UK yet.

Ah thanks, now I get what @Goldfish62 meant

 

[Goldfish62]

Not sure, but we don't have LEAN2 in the UK yet.

I thought the 458/5s had them. They are distinctly better than the LEAN seats in the 745/755s. Softer cushions and the seat back rakes back at a more comfortable angle rather than being ridiculously upright.

 

[AJDesiro]

What's the difference between the Lean 2 and the original Lean?

I thought the 458/5s had them. They are distinctly better than the LEAN seats in the 745/755s. Softer cushions and the seat back rakes back at a more comfortable angle rather than being ridiculously upright.

The only difference is how the support on the bottom of the seat works, the LEAN1 has a “tube” structure supporting the seat, whereas the LEAN2 does not.

The LEAN is a highly customisable seat, with many different cushions and seat back rakes to choose from, so the 458/4 variant is still the same LEAN1 seat as in the 196s/231s/444 first/745s/755s/756s, just with different cushions, the refurbished EMR/XC 170s have the same variant of the LEAN1 as the 458/4s.

(Images show the differences between the LEAN1 and LEAN2)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The LEAN2 looks like an improvement as far as legroom goes, with a thinner back.

 

[GoneSouth]

The only difference is how the support on the bottom of the seat works, the LEAN1 has a “tube” structure supporting the seat, whereas the LEAN2 does not.

The LEAN is a highly customisable seat, with many different cushions and seat back rakes to choose from, so the 458/4 variant is still the same LEAN1 seat as in the 196s/231s/444 first/745s/755s/756s, just with different cushions, the refurbished EMR/XC 170s have the same variant of the LEAN1 as the 458/4s.

(Images show the differences between the LEAN1 and LEAN2)

As long as they do actually ‘Lean’ slightly backwards and we aren’t all forced into sitting upright for 4 or 5 hours then they might be ok.

 

[Goldfish62]

As long as they do actually ‘Lean’ slightly backwards and we aren’t all forced into sitting upright for 4 or 5 hours then they might be ok.

If they're they're the same as on the 458s you'll be fine - and based on the 170 refurb that's exactly what they'll be.

Needless to say on these forums we've been told that sitting bolt-upright at a 90' angle is perfectly acceptable.

 

[GoneSouth]

Needless to say on these forums we've been told that sitting bolt-upright at a 90' angle is perfectly acceptable.

It is for 5 minutes, but not from Newcastle to Newton Abbot or Wolverhampton to Southampton or even Bodmin Parkway to Bristol Parkwas!

I’d expect at least some comfort for the £100+ ticket cost!

 

[Goldfish62]

It is for 5 minutes, but not from Newcastle to Newton Abbot or Wolverhampton to Southampton or even Bodmin Parkway to Bristol Parkwas!

I’d expect at least some comfort for the £100+ ticket cost!

Or Paddington - Penzance on a Fainsa Sofia seat, bolt upright and collapsed seat cushion.

 

[GoneSouth]

Or Paddington - Penzance on a Fainsa Sofia seat, bolt upright and collapsed seat cushion.

I was going to mention them but then thought I better not as this is a XC thread. Fully agree though, those seats are horrific for long journeys, I’d probably rather sit on the toilet

 

[185143]

I was going to mention them but then thought I better not as this is a XC thread. Fully agree though, those seats are horrific for long journeys, I’d probably rather sit on the toilet

I 100% genuinely I don't get the hate with IET seats. Shows how subjective it all is.

Is it down to people wanting to slouch on the seats or something?

I've done Aberdeen-Kings Cross followed by Paddington-Penzance before without the slightest hint of discomfort beyond the sleep deprecation of having roughed it without a bed on the ferry to and from Shetland for the previous two nights. I do lengthy journeys on the TPE units with the same seats too, and also have no issue there. Also, they don't seem to attract nearly as much criticism on TPE (or Hull Trains for that matter) as they did on GWR/LNER for some reason.

I've seen posters on here say they're fine for some people but bigger built people will hate them. I'm not exactly light and have no issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's because the seat base is too thin so you feel a metal bar through it. If anything it's worse if you sit upright.

TFW have used a thicker base so the problem isn't there.

 

[GoneSouth]

It's because the seat base is too thin so you feel a metal bar through it. If anything it's worse if you sit upright.

TFW have used a thicker base so the problem isn't there.

Yes, agree with this. Some are so worn that you only feel you are getting support from the bar which makes it very uncomfortable. They should have a ‘Bring your own cushion’ notice on their tickets