Escalation Railcard Misuse

[trainingday]

Escalation Railcard Misuse
Email 2 received -

Due to your failure to respond, the sum is now due in full within 7 days from the date of this letter. If payment is not received within this timeframe, we will have no alternative but to escalate this matter to our prosecutions team for legal action, which may result in additional costs and penalties being incurred



To avoid further consequences, we urge you to make immediate payment or contact us to discuss this matter. Payment details are provided below for your convenience.

Would it be wise to ignore or respond

 

[signed]

Please post every communication you've recieved with any personal information redcated

 

[trainingday]

Email 1: We have recently noticed some activity on your account that has raised concerns regarding potential misuse of your railcard.



Upon review, it appears that your transactions may not be in compliance with the terms and conditions of your railcard.



Please be advised that any form of railcard misuse is a serious matter and may result in further action if not addressed promptly. We encourage you to contact us immediately to resolve the matter.

 

[AlterEgo]

To be clear, they haven’t stopped you while travelling, and this email has come off the back of a data trawl?

 

[Snow1964]

You are going to have to be clearer, in advising us about the emails

don't quote any reference numbers or your name and address. Nothing that will identify you.

But please advise who email is from, and do you actually hold a railcard (if so what type), do you buy tickets (if so from whom) etc

 

[trainingday]

To be clear, they haven’t stopped you while travelling, and this email has come off the back of a data trawl?

correct not stopped at all while travelling

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2025 ==

You are going to have to be clearer, in advising us about the emails

don't quote any reference numbers or your name and address. Nothing that will identify you.

But please advise who email is from, and do you actually hold a railcard (if so what type), do you buy tickets (if so from whom) etc

Oh apologies the email is from WMT and the tickets were purchased via Trainline using an incorrect railcard oops

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2025 ==

To be clear, they haven’t stopped you while travelling, and this email has come off the back of a data trawl?

Hiya never been stopped when travelling … these emails are from WMT as I purchased tickets on Trainline with the wrong railcard

 

[driverd]

Oh apologies the email is from WMT and the tickets were purchased via Trainline using an incorrect railcard oops

Did you have any railcard at all? What was the mistake you made?

 

[trainingday]

Did you have any railcard at all? What was the mistake you made

It was a 16-17 railcard was attached to the account & was out of date tbh

 

[driverd]

It was a 16-17 railcard was attached to the account & was out of date tbh

Were you still old enough to be entitled to the discount at the time/had you purchased any other railcard?

 

[trainingday]

Were you still old enough to be entitled to the discount at the time/had you purchased any other railcard?

No and no

 

[saismee]

correct not stopped at all while travelling

Ignore their emails. They have no evidence that you travelled on an invalid ticket, it is not illegal to purchase tickets without a railcard. They will continue to threaten you, but it is better to not engage as they cannot prove that you committed any crime.

Stop using trainline, stop using invalid tickets/the wrong railcard. If you are stopped while using an invalid ticket, you may end up having to pay for every invalid ticket you purchased, or potentially be taken to court and fined.

 

[driverd]

On that basis, if it was a genuine mistake, I would contact them, express your deepest regret and offer to reach a settlement between both parties to pay the difference. They'll probably reject it, but it certainly looks better on your part to have engaged with the process and offered a solution. I'd see what they come back with after this.

There's a cost:benefit analysis to make if you choose to do nothing. The potential outcomes are, at the most extreme:
a. The TOC do nothing and don't progress further as they don't think the costs that can be recovered will cover the expense of taking you to court
b. They take you to court, win their arguement and you have a criminal record/fine etc.

There's a fair bit of room between the two outcomes.

It's ultimately your choice how you play it - this is only my personal advice and I'm sure others will offer their advice accordingly.

 

[trainingday]

On that basis, if it was a genuine mistake, I would contact them, express your deepest regret and offer to reach a settlement between both parties to pay the difference. They'll probably reject it, but it certainly looks better on your part to have engaged with the process and offered a solution. I'd see what they come back with after this.

There's a cost:benefit analysis to make if you choose to do nothing. The potential outcomes are, at the most extreme:
a. The TOC do nothing and don't progress further as they don't think the costs that can be recovered will cover the expense of taking you to court
b. They take you to court, win their arguement and you have a criminal record/fine etc.

There's a fair bit of room between the two outcomes.

It's ultimately your choice how you play it - this is only my personal advice and I'm sure others will offer their advice accordingly.

Thanks I think the best option is a.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2025 ==

Ignore their emails. They have no evidence that you travelled on an invalid ticket, it is not illegal to purchase tickets without a railcard. They will continue to threaten you, but it is better to not engage as they cannot prove that you committed any crime.

Stop using trainline, stop using invalid tickets/the wrong railcard. If you are stopped while using an invalid ticket, you may end up having to pay for every invalid ticket you purchased, or potentially be taken to court and fined.

WMT have mentioned it was 200 journey ouch

 

[driverd]

Thanks I think the best option is a.)

Am I correct in thinking the trainline app auto-applies the railcard even when it's expired?

I know there's been issue with this in the past and if this was the case, I would certainly highlight this in any communications.

As I say, if they have given you a window to reply, I would certainly take your time and consider others advice also - I'm not an expert in the field (there are some users on here who have a very in-depth knowledge of other cases) so I would certainly advise considering a range of opinions first.

 

[saismee]

b. They take you to court, win their arguement and you have a criminal record/fine etc.

They would have to prove that OP actually used the tickets. Purchasing a ticket with an invalid railcard is not an offence on its own. They could theoretically link the OP to CCTV, but they'd need to know what OP looks like and then match that to low-quality CCTV footage that gets deleted quite often.

Am I correct in thinking the trainline app auto-applies the railcard even when it's expired?

I know there's been issue with this in the past and if this was the case, I would certainly highlight this in any communications.

This has no impact on any case, it is still the customer's fault for not spotting this on their own.

As I say, if they have given you a window to reply, I would certainly take your time and consider others advice

The window of time seems to be an intimidation tactic to scare people into admitting to it. If they have evidence, why don't they go straight to prosecution and get their money? It would be cheaper than emailing back and forth and still gives the option for settling out of court.

OP, there is always a risk to ignoring these emails, but it is unlikely that WMT will actually be able to prove that you committed an offence. They send these emails frequently (must have been 5+ in the past week) and it is an attempt to scare you into self-incriminating. If you can afford to settle with them then it may be worth doing that to get them to stop pestering you, though you should've just bought the correct tickets if this is an option.

 

[driverd]

They would have to prove that OP actually used the tickets. Purchasing a ticket with an invalid railcard is not an offence on its own. They could theoretically link the OP to CCTV, but they'd need to know what OP looks like and then match that to low-quality CCTV footage that gets deleted quite often.

Would a ticket scan constitute proof of use?

 

[saismee]

Would a ticket scan constitute proof of use?

No, they cannot prove that it was you who used the ticket. You very well could have bought the ticket for another person who holds a valid 16-17 saver railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

On that basis, if it was a genuine mistake, I would contact them, express your deepest regret and offer to reach a settlement between both parties to pay the difference.

Absolutely not. That would be very expensive and not in the OP’s interests. Under no circumstances should they make any comment.

 

[Titfield]

The window of time seems to be an intimidation tactic to scare people into admitting to it. If they have evidence, why don't they go straight to prosecution and get their money? It would be cheaper than emailing back and forth and still gives the option for settling out of court.

(1) If they don't give a short deadline ie inject a sense of urgency, people either don't respond or only respond very close to the deadline.
(2) TOCs only prosecute as a last resort when other means fail. See their prosecution policy for their rationale.
(3) Having a sequence of emails to present in court, demonstrates their attempts to communicate with the ticket booker ie they have attempted to resolve the issues without proceeding to court.

 

[trainingday]

Am I correct in thinking the trainline app auto-applies the railcard even when it's expired?

I know there's been issue with this in the past and if this was the case, I would certainly highlight this in any communications.

As I say, if they have given you a window to reply, I would certainly take your time and consider others advice also - I'm not an expert in the field (there are some users on here who have a very in-depth knowledge of other cases) so I would certainly advise considering a range of opinions first.

Appreciate any advice

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2025 ==

(1) If they don't give a short deadline ie inject a sense of urgency, people either don't respond or only respond very close to the deadline.
(2) TOCs only prosecute as a last resort when other means fail. See their prosecution policy for their rationale.
(3) Having a sequence of emails to present in court, demonstrates their attempts to communicate with the ticket booker ie they have attempted to resolve the issues without proceeding to court.

I do think I better respond before any further action

 

[saismee]

I do think I better respond before any further action

I think most people on the forum would advise against that. Refer to @AlterEgo's last post and read some of the other threads about the same emails from WMT.

 

[swt_passenger]

No, they cannot prove that it was you who used the ticket. You very well could have bought the ticket for another person who holds a valid 16-17 saver railcard.

200 times? What if they ask who it is, just claim you don’t know someone you bought 200 tickets for?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

If you choose to not respond (the best option right now) be aware that if there is a common trend to your travel (i.e. you book the same itinerary every week day etc), expect to run into a revenue block at some point in the near future.

At the very least, stop committing such clearly fraudulent behaviour from now on otherwise you will find yourself in very hot water.

 

[saismee]

200 times? What if they ask who it is, just claim you don’t know someone you bought 200 tickets for?

AIUI, they have no right to ask you that and you have no obligation to answer it.

stop committing such clearly fraudulent behaviour from now on otherwise you will find yourself in very hot water.

... and start using another retailer (the forum has a good one!) that doesn't have evidence of your misuse. Keep in mind that this may be a problem if you ever get stopped with the wrong ticket in the future, even by mistake.

 

[John R]

Would a ticket scan constitute proof of use?

It clearly proves that the ticket was used, but not by whom. Although the railway may prosecute on the basis that it was the purchaser of the ticket that used it. It would then be for the defendant to prove that someone else used it, which would be difficult, unless they find someone willing to perjure themselves in court (not advised).

 

[Titfield]

I am not totally convinced the OP understands what will happen next:

IF the OP does NOT respond:
EITHER
1 The TOC will drop the matter (because of a lack of evidence).
OR
2 The TOC will take the OP to court(because it thinks it has sufficient evidence to prove wrong doing).

If the TOC takes the OP to court.
EITHER
1 The Court will find the OP guilty. A fine, victim surcharge and the value of the tickets claimed will be incurred by the OP. The OP will get a criminal record.
OR
2. The Court will find the OP not guilty. Matter closed.

IF the OP does respond:
EITHER
1 The TOC will offer an out of court settlement. If the OP accepts and pays the settlement requested then matter closed. If the OP does not accept then see (2) below.
OR
2 The TOC will take the OP to court (because it think it has sufficient evidence to prove wrong doing).

If the TOC takes the OP to court.
EITHER
1 The Court will find the OP guilty. A fine, victim surcharge and the value of the tickets claimed will be incurred by the OP. The OP will get a criminal record.
OR
2. The Court will find the OP not guilty. Matter closed.

If there are 200 journeys involved then simply on the balance of probabilities I would have concerns that the TOC has sufficient proof (or at least they believe they have sufficient proof) to secure a conviction. For example they could have CCTV images of the OP going through a barrier which they can link using ticket scans.

 

[scrapy]

AIUI, they have no right to ask you that and you have no obligation to answer it.

They can ask what they like, whether or not the answer given can be used in court is another question, however you are correct that the OP has no obligation to answer.

 

[Cuthbert]

Would a ticket scan constitute proof of use?

Did you have the rail card?
When it was scanned did they ask to see the rail card?
It might have been given to the digital fraud team after the scan was done.

 

[saismee]

It clearly proves that the ticket was used, but not by whom. Although the railway may prosecute on the basis that it was the purchaser of the ticket that used it. It would then be for the defendant to prove that someone else used it, which would be difficult, unless they find someone willing to perjure themselves in court (not advised).

I believe that WMT would have to prove that OP used it, and OP wouldn't have to prove that it wasn't them. Otherwise ignoring these emails would be a terrible idea.

 

[driverd]

If there are 200 journeys involved then simply on the balance of probabilities I would have concerns that the TOC has sufficient proof (or at least they believe they have sufficient proof) to secure a conviction. For example they could have CCTV images of the OP going through a barrier which they can link using ticket scans.

From what the OP has said, it sounds as though there was a valid railcard for the majority of those journeys, just a few made after it expired as they didn't realise the trainline app was automatically applying the discount.

It's a common scenario, both where trainline auto applies a discount after your railcard has expired (and either the user forgets to remove the discount or forgets they had it in the first instance) and also where TOCs find proof/evidence of one journey made with an invalid discount and assume every other journey made with said discount was done under the same circumstances (personally I find this poor on the TOCs behalf as, in my experience, it's often easy enough to prove via the retailer that this is not the case).

Did you have the rail card?
When it was scanned did they ask to see the rail card?
It might have been given to the digital fraud team after the scan was done.

I'm not the OP, just someone giving my advice.