"Services timed to depart" - does it apply to the train itself, or where I join it?

[BRX]

This wording appears often. In this case, part of restriction code UO:

Not valid on services timed to depart:

stations within London Zones 1-6 after 04:29 and before 09:30

But does that mean I can board any train after 0930 at a Z1-6 station, or only if the train itself has not departed any Z1-6 stations before 0930, prior to me joining it?

This arises if I'm starting short on a ticket. For example today I want to travel on an off peak day return from Elephant & Castle to Woking, starting short at Denmark Hill at 0937. I can't check via the journey planner because it will only tell me what's allowed if I start at Elephant.

The 0937 is an overground service that will have departed multiple z1-6 stations prior to getting to Denmark Hill.

 

[redreni]

I would interpret it as meaning any train timed to depart any station within zones 1-6 between 04:30 and 09:29.

It's not brilliant English. It should really say "Not valid on trains timed to depart [...] any station within London zones 1-6 between 04:30 and 09:29". The use of the plural "stations" could be argued to exclude trains that only depart one station within zones 1-6 before 09:30 (e.g. if there were an 09:27 from Waterloo which departed the next station after 09:29, it could be argued it has departed a station within z1-6 before 09:30 but not stations.) But I don't think that's what it's intended to mean.

For your proposed journey, by the letter of the restriction it looks to me to be disallowed because the 09:37 from Denmark Hill to Clapham Junction originates at Dalston Junction and will have thereafter departed from multiple stations within Z1-6 before 09.30. However, I doubt that is what's intended either and I suspect you would be fine. Anyone checking tickets on that train would probably simply regard off-peak tickets as valid to travel after 09:30, but not before that, even though that is not what the restriction code says. Whether they would take the view that you must have left Elephant before 09:30 in order to be able to get the 09:37 from Denmark Hill, I don't know, but I'm sure if you explained you'd started short at Denmark Hill they would probably be happy with that.

 

[BRX]

Well - the chap on the gates at Denmark Hill told me my ticket wasn't valid but he'd let me through anyway. I didn't argue of course. I think it was more that he didn't understand the routing rather than it being a timing issue.

I note that the journey planner lets me use a Denmark Hill to Woking day return with the same OU restriction, on that 0937 departure. That implies that all that matters is when *I* get on the train.

Sometimes I take my bike on the train from Denmark Hill to Kent and in that case there are evening restrictions - it's not allowed during the peak. It's restricted with more specific wording, which makes it clear that where the train has come from is the important bit. So it's when the train departs a central london station that matters - rather than when I board it.

 

[Lewisham2221]

This wording appears often. In this case, part of restriction code UO:



But does that mean I can board any train after 0930 at a Z1-6 station, or only if the train itself has not departed any Z1-6 stations before 0930, prior to me joining it?

This arises if I'm starting short on a ticket. For example today I want to travel on an off peak day return from Elephant & Castle to Woking, starting short at Denmark Hill at 0937. I can't check via the journey planner because it will only tell me what's allowed if I start at Elephant.

The 0937 is an overground service that will have departed multiple z1-6 stations prior to getting to Denmark Hill.

I would argue that it's actually the third option, which you don't appear to have considered, that it applies to the origin of the ticket. In this case, as it's a ticket from Elephant & Castle, the restriction applies to trains departing from Elephant & Castle before 0930. Otherwise, surely you'd just say simply "Not valid before 0930"?

 

[redreni]

I think there may be a discrepancy (as is often the case) between the restriction text and the unpublished restrictions. If the unpublished restrictions are more favourable then the rule of thumb is it's happy days, because you can just buy the ticket against an itinerary using the train you want, and that's generally the end of any debate about validity.

The problem here is you can't get an itinerary to start short.

Personally I think an itinerary from NRE offered for the journey from Denmark Hill using that train, with a ticket with the same restriction code, is persuasive. It's hard to see how it isn't valid in that case, assuming no break of journey restriction applies and assuming your route is valid.

 

[BRX]

I would argue that it's actually the third option, which you don't appear to have considered, that it applies to the origin of the ticket. In this case, as it's a ticket from Elephant & Castle, the restriction applies to trains departing from Elephant & Castle before 0930.

Had I started from Elephant & Castle, I'd have changed at Denmark Hill. So, whatever train I get on at Denmark Hill has not come from Elephant. At no point am I getting on a "service" timed to depart from Elephant before 9.30, unless you take "service" to mean "itinerary".

Otherwise, surely you'd just say simply "Not valid before 0930"?

I think the reason it doesn't say this is that the 0930 restriction only applies when getting on at certain stations - ie. Z1-6 stations.

 

[redreni]

Had I started from Elephant & Castle, I'd have changed at Denmark Hill. So, whatever train I get on at Denmark Hill has not come from Elephant. At no point am I getting on a "service" timed to depart from Elephant before 9.30, unless you take "service" to mean "itinerary".



I think the reason it doesn't say this is that the 0930 restriction only applies when getting on at certain stations - ie. Z1-6 stations.

I agree.

The restriction text could easily say "not valid on trains timed to depart the origin on the ticket" between two times. It doesn't say that, though. It says not valid on trains timed to depart stations in Z1-6 between two times.

If it intends to exclude from that any station from which the train was timed to depart before the passenger boarded the train, then it does not say so. But it seems that's the rule journey planners apply, so on that basis (only) I cannot see what is wrong with starting short at Denmark Hill at 09.38 on that ticket.

 

[Tram203]

Back in the days of First Capital Connect and paper timetable booklets, there was quite a good explanation and accompanying map in the booklet regarding restrictions such as the one the OP is querying.

For the purposes of this post we will say zone A is central London stations and zone B is stations in all directions further out.

The wording was akin to: "off peak tickets for travel from zone A to zone B are not valid on trains timed to depart stations in zone A between 1600-1800 Mon-Fri. This restriction applies even if you have already travelled out of zone A and intend to join such a train in zone B".

Of course, with the paper timetable booklets, you could see what time your intended train had departed stations within zone A and therefore work out if your ticket was valid or not.

Based on some of their past posts @bramling may be able to advise more accurate details of the zones and restrictions I'm referring to, but the basic principle is as above.

 

[BRX]

For the purposes of this post we will say zone A is central London stations and zone B is stations in all directions further out.

The wording was akin to: "off peak tickets for travel from zone A to zone B are not valid on trains timed to depart stations in zone A between 1600-1800 Mon-Fri. This restriction applies even if you have already travelled out of zone A and intend to join such a train in zone B".

This one is slightly different because it's relating to journeys pre 0930 that are going *opposite* to the main direction of peak flow.

So the logic behind what it's trying to do is a bit different from what you describe above.

Obviously a train that departs central London at 5pm may well still be busy once it's getting into zones 2 or 3.

If it's departing central london at 9am though - it might be travelling through central london when stations are very busy in general - but it may not be very busy itself, and by the time it gets to zone 2 or 3, it will be going through stations already getting quieter post peak.

My guess is that the restriction is aimed at stopping people adding to congestion at central stations ... if that's correct, then it would make sense that the restriction gets lifted at 0930 at all locations.