Two new open-access cross-country proposals

[tomuk]

Not everyone wants to travel Lumo just like everyone doesn't want to fly easyJet or Ryanair.

Carrying more people at low prices doesn't necessarily make a service more profitable. It's also about the yield generated overall, which is why you tend to see lower priced Advance Tickets on slower/unpopular services.

Even if First Class and catering facilities were removed this wouldn't necessarily translate into lots of cheaper tickets because there are more seats - DfT and HMT want to reduce the overall subsidy for rail, so that means reducing losses where they occur or increasing profits where they occur.

But then I am rather tired of endless debates on here over the years that because someone can't get a £10 ticket from London to Manchester the solution must be to remove First Class.

Low Cost Carriers provide about 47% of all UK air capacity, taking account of the concentration on Short\Medium Haul routes and the poor full service airline offering on the same routes. The LCC offer is very much in the majority.
Should that not be an indictor for the ECML where LCC like Lumo is a tiny percentage of capacity and the full service LNER a huge majority.

 

[Bald Rick]

Low Cost Carriers provide about 47% of all UK air capacity, taking account of the concentration on Short\Medium Haul routes and the poor full service airline offering on the same routes. The LCC offer is very much in the majority.
Should that not be an indictor for the ECML where LCC like Lumo is a tiny percentage of capacity and the full service LNER a huge majority.

Perhaps LNER is doing so well precisely because there is little in the way of premium offering by the airlines. I’ve used first class on LNER trains to/from Scotland a fair bit in the last few months, and they are not running around empty, far from it.

 

[Xavi]

All of them will most likely fail due to lack of paths and the same issue that CrossCountry faces that cross country travel doesn't pay its way.

In part due to the long-standing cost and revenue allocation mechanisms. XC has more shared passenger flows for ORCATS than some long-distance operators, and split ticketing does XC no favours either. Alternate NR cost allocation methods may favour XC too.

 

[Zomboid]

Perhaps LNER is doing so well precisely because there is little in the way of premium offering by the airlines. I’ve used first class on LNER trains to/from Scotland a fair bit in the last few months, and they are not running around empty, far from it.

Whilst there is probably a place for the likes of Lumo, Rail travel is not air travel, they both have different advantages and disadvantages, and neither will succeed by trying to copy the other.

Rail should emphasize the things that it does well, and whilst I don't use first class, that's a point of difference that some will value.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Even if First Class and catering facilities were removed this wouldn't necessarily translate into lots of cheaper tickets because there are more seats - DfT and HMT want to reduce the overall subsidy for rail, so that means reducing losses where they occur or increasing profits where they occur.

Catering is a cost. Train services can be operated without catering. Many train operators have removed catering from their train services. Removing catering reduces the cost of operating the train service and therefore enables DfT and HMT to reduce the overall subsidy for rail. Replacing the kitchens with additional seats enables the trains to carry more fare paying passengers.

 

[Bald Rick]

Catering is a cost. Train services can be operated without catering. Many train operators have removed catering from their train services. Removing catering reduces the cost of operating the train service and therefore enables DfT and HMT to reduce the overall subsidy for rail. Replacing the kitchens with additional seats enables the trains to carry more fare paying passengers.

And yet DfT continue to choose to retain catering on some services - because they see the income it brings in terms of premium fares. In this instance, reducing cost does not equal reducing subsidy.

 

[p.d87]

Catering is a cost. Train services can be operated without catering. Many train operators have removed catering from their train services. Removing catering reduces the cost of operating the train service and therefore enables DfT and HMT to reduce the overall subsidy for rail. Replacing the kitchens with additional seats enables the trains to carry more fare paying passengers.

What do you propose all those staff you'll make redundant do for work?

 

[The Planner]

What do you propose all those staff you'll make redundant do for work?

The same as any other people that get made redundant in any industry, like the 2100 being made redundant in the Civil Service. Nobody wants people to lose jobs, they either get moved into other roles or take the money.

Cabinet Office to shed 2,100 civil servant roles

Sources say Cabinet Office chief Pat McFadden wants to "lead by example" on civil service reform.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[robspaceman]

Catering is a cost. Train services can be operated without catering. Many train operators have removed catering from their train services. Removing catering reduces the cost of operating the train service and therefore enables DfT and HMT to reduce the overall subsidy for rail. Replacing the kitchens with additional seats enables the trains to carry more fare paying passengers.

Great idea. While we’re at it let’s remove the loos and seat cushions too. Maybe even the roofs and windows. Could definitely pack more in without all those frivolous luxuries and people will still definitely choose rail over driving. Win win!

 

[5021]

I'm fully aware of that.

Anyway, it certainly wasn't funded by a TOC or FOC and thinking of the likely 7 figure sums involved it seems highly unlikely that the work now required would be either, least of all by an open access company bearing full commercial risk!

 

[Helvellyn]

Catering is a cost. Train services can be operated without catering. Many train operators have removed catering from their train services. Removing catering reduces the cost of operating the train service and therefore enables DfT and HMT to reduce the overall subsidy for rail. Replacing the kitchens with additional seats enables the trains to carry more fare paying passengers.

And many people would choose not to travel by rail as a result. But hey, as long as we have lots more £20 tickets available.

 

[supervc-10]

Lumo have said themselves that they're not aiming at LNER's passengers, but instead at the people who were previously going to take an easyJet A320 to Edinburgh. Like all these things it depends on costs - if Lumo can offer a cheaper (or comparable) ticket to the airlines, then they're going to fill the trains easily. Lumo offer refreshments onboard, so I can't quite see what the difference would be between them and LNER in standard class? Given that Lumo are offering a trolley service, it seems likely that catering is worth it on longer routes. I can understand why it's no longer offered on shorter trips though.

Regarding first class fares- Avanti seem to be doing quite well with their 'standard premium' offering, letting you pay a small upgrade fee to get the bigger seat but without the other first class niceties. Having that flexibility is quite sensible IMO.

 

[BlueLeanie]

How much catering do people think will be needed on a service with key destinations of Swindon Outlet, Bicester Outlet, and Universal? If the operator were to be ordering new stock, there's no way that it will be cost effective to put on a Pullman Dining Coach with the capability of serving just 20 covers at £38 each.

Be realistic.

On a weekend or holiday service, the trolley staff will need to have a dozen crates of 20cl Prosecco and a bags of Tyrrels as a £10 deal for the Bicester set. Not forgetting the cans of ready-mixed Vodka-martini and crates of bottles of Butterbeer and crisps for the children and non-drinkers heading to Universal.

Add in the basics ham sandwiches, humus dips, fruit bowls, babybel and you've got the biggest sellers covered.

If anything, I'm surprised no-one's raised the potential need for an all table coach or "Family Premium" Coach with 18 tables for four, that's only bookable when there's at least one child in the party.

 

[Zomboid]

Most of the big tourist/leisure draws on that route (Bath excepted) are towards the middle, so journey times to/from them won't be especially long. So a standard trolley with mediocre coffee, fruit pastilles and crisps will be enough for most likely journeys. Prosecco and premium crisps (get a combo deal for a tender!) probably a good shout for Bicester Village, as that's a fairly premium outlet place. I've no idea about Swindon.

If I were specifying new trains I might go for a more table heavy layout, as it's possible that there will be more groups of 3 or more travelling than is typical, and they may well have luggage to put between the back to back seats. I'd certainly look to provide more luggage space than in the DfT 80x.

 

[BlueLeanie]

If I were specifying new trains I might go for a more table heavy layout, as it's possible that there will be more groups of 3 or more travelling than is typical, and they may well have luggage to put between the back to back seats. I'd certainly look to provide more luggage space than in the DfT 80x.

Think of the bags of shopping from Bicester & Swindon!

 

[jayah]

Great idea. While we’re at it let’s remove the loos and seat cushions too. Maybe even the roofs and windows. Could definitely pack more in without all those frivolous luxuries and people will still definitely choose rail over driving. Win win!

It wasn't that long ago the toilets emptied onto the track and you had to lean out of a door to open it.

When it is their own money almost everyone chooses Standard Class, and price is by far the bigger barrier to people choosing rail.

Having said that, there is no excuse for the terrible seats. Manchester to Cardiff has comfortable seats, so it must be possible.

 

[Starmill]

Lumo have said themselves that they're not aiming at LNER's passengers, but instead at the people who were previously going to take an easyJet A320 to Edinburgh. Like all these things it depends on costs - if Lumo can offer a cheaper (or comparable) ticket to the airlines, then they're going to fill the trains easily. Lumo offer refreshments onboard, so I can't quite see what the difference would be between them and LNER in standard class? Given that Lumo are offering a trolley service, it seems likely that catering is worth it on longer routes. I can understand why it's no longer offered on shorter trips though.

Regarding first class fares- Avanti seem to be doing quite well with their 'standard premium' offering, letting you pay a small upgrade fee to get the bigger seat but without the other first class niceties. Having that flexibility is quite sensible IMO.

I think I'd rather have a very tight 3+3 Ryanair jet for a 1h10m ride than a 2+2 slightly more leg and elbow room Lumo train ride for 4h25m.