Help. TIL is charging me to court!!

[AlterEgo]

The company appears determined to proceed with a prosecution following your failure to settle and it seems they are unwilling to withdraw the action.

You should therefore plead guilty and provide your mitigation to the court.

 

[furlong]

You should therefore plead guilty and provide your mitigation to the court.

Or not guilty on the basis that the OP did "hand over his ticket ... when asked to do so by an authorised person" as required by 18(2)?

 

[AlterEgo]

Or not guilty on the basis that the OP did "hand over his ticket ... when asked to do so by an authorised person" as required by 18(2)?

My apologies - yes, good spot that they’ve used the wrong bylaw here!

 

[kefty]

Thank you. Someone suggested on Friday that the prosecution might ask to amend the charges.

 

[WesternLancer]

I got a response. They want me to contact the court for any further correspondence.

Sorry to read this - it seems as if they are not minded to agree to your request to re-open the chance to settle it out of court. I fear this is not unusual for TIL who are very difficult to deal with in these matters (the contractor used by TfW in respect of these matters)

I can see others have suggested the options with the court papers and pleading before I read this news.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2025 ==

Or not guilty on the basis that the OP did "hand over his ticket ... when asked to do so by an authorised person" as required by 18(2)?

I assume if the OP goes down this route they need to be prepared to go to the court on the date a court hearing is set and argue to the magistrates this point, ie that TIL have used the wrong bylaw and thus the OP and their wife are not in fact guilty?

I guess @kefty has to decide if they are prepared to do that and know how to go about it.

 

[Haywain]

to the magistrates this point, ie that TIL have used the wrong bylaw

No, thry should state that they are not guilty of what they have been charged with. They should not point out that they are guilty of a different offence.

 

[kefty]

I still don't know what exactly to do.

Sorry to read this - it seems as if they are not minded to agree to your request to re-open the chance to settle it out of court. I fear this is not unusual for TIL who are very difficult to deal with in these matters (the contractor used by TfW in respect of these matters)

I can see others have suggested the options with the court papers and pleading before I read this news.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2025 ==


I assume if the OP goes down this route they need to be prepared to go to the court on the date a court hearing is set and argue to the magistrates this point, ie that TIL have used the wrong bylaw and thus the OP and their wife are not in fact guilty?

I guess @kefty has to decide if they are prepared to do that and know how to go about it.

Me and my wife still haven't decided what to do yet.
As adviced here, TIL seem to have used the wrong by law. While this gives me an opportunity to plead not guilty, I'm also worried that the prosecution might then ask the court for permission to amend the charges. And that might then make it more complicated for us.

 

[furlong]

and argue to the magistrates this point, ie that TIL have used the wrong bylaw and thus the OP and their wife are not in fact guilty?

Arguments would be on the actual charge in front of the court - not about a "wrong byelaw".
E.g. that the statement of facts confirms they did present their ticket so cannot be guilty of the charge.
Nuances such as "hand over" vs "present", and "asked to" don't seem to lead to anything meaningful here.
Similarly an attempt to argue that an invalid ticket handed over is not "his ticket" may lead nowhere - if it was accepted no such ticket exists then a law requiring an impossibility, namely the handing over of something that it was accepted doesn't exist, would be absurd!

With all the resources at its disposal, that's the charge the company selected, and arguably even attempted to misrepresent - why should it now be allowed a second bite of the cherry with all the added inconvenience? If the charge was amended, given the errors and misrepresentation already discovered, the OP would need time to examine and take advice again on the new version - so seek an adjournment (still offering a chance for an out-of-court settlement).

 

[Haywain]

I'm also worried that the prosecution might then ask the court for permission to amend the charges.

If they did do that, and it was agreed to by the court, you would be asked how you plead to that charge and could plead guilty. However, I would also expect that you would be given the opportunity top point out that had you been charged with that to start with you could have entered a guilty plea and saved the court time dealing with the matter. I would hope that the magistrates may be sympathetic to that view and the time that it costs both them and you to attend because of TIL's error. That could result in a more lenient fine.

 

[kefty]

If they did do that, and it was agreed to by the court, you would be asked how you plead to that charge and could plead guilty. However, I would also expect that you would be given the opportunity top point out that had you been charged with that to start with you could have entered a guilty plea and saved the court time dealing with the matter. I would hope that the magistrates may be sympathetic to that view and the time that it costs both them and you to attend because of TIL's error. That could result in a more lenient fine.

Ok thank you. that's fair enough. I was also thinking...the letter I sent them this morning pleading for a chance to settle out of court. can it be presented by the prosecution as evidence to prove guilt?

And one more thing that I haven't mentioned, they have a wrong last name and date of birth on the court pack sent to me.

Is it ok if I correct it before sending back the plea note?

 

[Haywain]

can it be presented by the prosecution as evidence to prove guilt?

It cannot prove guilt to the offence you've been charged with.

 

[WesternLancer]

No, thry should state that they are not guilty of what they have been charged with. They should not point out that they are guilty of a different offence.

Thanks for picking this up - and also to @furlong as well for follow up comments that I am sure must be helpful to the OP in deciding what to do next.

 

[kefty]

Thanks for picking this up - and also to @furlong as well for follow up comments that I am sure must be helpful to the OP in deciding what to do next.

Thank you to everyone that has contributed. We would go ahead and plead not guilty.
And would be back here with an update when there's one.

I'm still not sure if i should correct my name and date of birth.

 

[furlong]

If they did do that, and it was agreed to by the court, you would be asked how you plead to that charge and could plead guilty.

But before that you should ask for an adjournment, because you'd need time to seek advice on the new charge. Given that at this stage they'd have accepted their first attempt was flawed, you'd want to take advice to examine the new situation properly (is it perhaps also flawed?) before responding. [E.g. noting that you are on record at the time as saying the staff let you through which you took to mean you had permission to do what you did, you might consider whether that could run as a defence?] In practice, a conversation with the prosecutor might then lead to a settlement.

 

[Hadders]

It seems that TIL/TfW are not going to offer you an out of court settlement and want this case to proceed to court. I think you have three choices:

1. Plead guilty. You will have to pay:

• A fine based on your income discounted by a third for pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity
• A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
• Contribution towards TIL/TfW's court costs
• Compensation for the fare avoided

Fundamentally you shouldn't plead guilty to an offence you're not guilty of but I could understand why someone might do this, especially on a technical matter such as this.

2. Plead Not Guilty and argue that you are not guilty of the offence for which you have been charged as described by @furlong There are risks involved with this, the charge could be amended. My recomendation is to only proceed with this approach if you have professional representation as I think it would be too easy for someone without appropriate legal knowledge to 'trip-up'.

3. Plead Not Guilty. Seek out the prosecutor on the day of the court case and ask if they will agree to an out of court settlement. We have seen reports of this strategy being successful in the past but it is always possible that the prosecutor will say no. Were they to say no then you could proceed as per option 2, or even option 1 - you would still get a discount on the fine for a guilty plea on the day but probably not the full third.

 

[kefty]

Now, this is even more confusing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2025 ==

I had a look at the bylaw and I also found in the third section of 18.3 that since an authorised person let me thru the barrier in Swansea when I presented my ticket, I'm not in breach of 18.2

 

[Tevion539]

Now, this is even more confusing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2025 ==

I had a look at the bylaw and I also found in the third section of 18.3 that since an authorised person let me thru the barrier in Swansea when I presented my ticket, I'm not in breach of 18.2

I’m not entirely sure if barrier staff are authorised to allow travel - it’s been a question that I’ve had for a while and happy to find out.

However - barrier staff will often allow people onto the platforms at Swansea for various reasons… seeing off friends/relatives, use of toilet facilities etc. Did the barrier staff explicitly say that you can catch the TfW service? Or did they merely allow you onto the platform early?

 

[Haywain]

I’m not entirely sure if barrier staff are authorised to allow travel - it’s been a question that I’ve had for a while and happy to find out.

I think you would struggle to successfully argue that you were allowed to board a specific train, rather then simply allowed access to the platforms early for your booked train.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think you would struggle to successfully argue that you were allowed to board a specific train, rather then simply allowed access to the platforms early for your booked train.

I agree. Being allowed onto the platform to access your booked train isn’t a defence to then getting on the wrong one.

 

[kefty]

Ok. Going by the majority advice here, we would be pleading not guilty. I would need some help with filling out the plea forms. Where I need to state the reason for pleading not guilty.

And also, my name and date of birth on the court pack is wrong, do I correct it when responding? Or leave as it is.

 

[Tevion539]

I think you would struggle to successfully argue that you were allowed to board a specific train, rather then simply allowed access to the platforms early for your booked train.

That’s my opinion too, but I thought I’d ask in case others seen it differently.

And also, my name and date of birth on the court pack is wrong, do I correct it when responding? Or leave as it is.

I’d ensure your details are correct…

 

[island]

Arguments would be on the actual charge in front of the court - not about a "wrong byelaw".
E.g. that the statement of facts confirms they did present their ticket so cannot be guilty of the charge.
Nuances such as "hand over" vs "present", and "asked to" don't seem to lead to anything meaningful here.
Similarly an attempt to argue that an invalid ticket handed over is not "his ticket" may lead nowhere - if it was accepted no such ticket exists then a law requiring an impossibility, namely the handing over of something that it was accepted doesn't exist, would be absurd!

With all the resources at its disposal, that's the charge the company selected, and arguably even attempted to misrepresent - why should it now be allowed a second bite of the cherry with all the added inconvenience? If the charge was amended, given the errors and misrepresentation already discovered, the OP would need time to examine and take advice again on the new version - so seek an adjournment (still offering a chance for an out-of-court settlement).

At the first hearing when the not guilty plea is entered, or potentially on court paperwork prior to that, the defendant will need to provide answers for case management purposes to a range of questions, including "What are the real issues in this case? Explain what particular facts are in dispute, if any, and what matters of law in dispute, if any?"

At this point, the defendant would be expected to point out that the facts as advanced by the prosecutor do not make out the offence as being committed.

The prosecution could then decide to offer no evidence (drop the case) or apply to amend the offence charged.

"Ambush defences" (where the defence wait until late in the proceedings to call out a mistake by the prosecution) are strongly deprecated by the courts these days, and the days of waiting for the prosecution to run their evidence and then submitting no case to answer are past. See for example R v Gleeson [2003] EWCA Crim 3357.

 

[kefty]

At the first hearing when the not guilty plea is entered, or potentially on court paperwork prior to that, the defendant will need to provide answers for case management purposes to a range of questions, including "What are the real issues in this case? Explain what particular facts are in dispute, if any, and what matters of law in dispute, if any?"

At this point, the defendant would be expected to point out that the facts as advanced by the prosecutor do not make out the offence as being committed.

The prosecution could then decide to offer no evidence (drop the case) or apply to amend the offence charged.

"Ambush defences" (where the defence wait until late in the proceedings to call out a mistake by the prosecution) are strongly deprecated by the courts these days, and the days of waiting for the prosecution to run their evidence and then submitting no case to answer are past. See for example R v Gleeson [2003] EWCA Crim 3357.

Hello, thank you for your submission. I'm not very familiar with law terms. But does this mean that it wouldn't be a good idea for me and my wife to plead not guilty?

We are going through a very rough patch right now, especially with my wife struggling with post partum depression. And the thought that this might lead to criminal records for us is causing so much anxiety.

Thank you.

 

[Blinkbonny]

Sorry to hear about all this, kefty. You shouldn't have to go through it.

I'm sure island will speak for himself, but I believe that what he is saying is there's nothing wrong in pleading not guilty but be upfront about your reasons for doing so from the beginning.

Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[kefty]

Sorry to hear about all this, kefty. You shouldn't have to go through it.

I'm sure island will speak for himself, but I believe that what he is saying is there's nothing wrong in pleading not guilty but be upfront about your reasons for doing so from the beginning.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Thank you. Kindly explain what you mean by being upfront about my reasons?

Also, the point Island made about 'ambush defence' is what is making me have second thoughts about a non guilty plea. Or perhaps I didn't understand what he meant.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Also, the point Island made about 'ambush defence' is what is making me have second thoughts about a non guilty plea.

If I've understood things properly, it means you can't keep what you want to say secret until the day of the hearing: instead, the magistrates will want what you're planning to say in writing beforehand so that they know what you have to say (and what the prosecution has to say as well). I think that you'd also give your written arguments to the prosecution, and they'd give their arguments to you. That way, if the prosecution read your arguments and find there's a point that proves you're not guilty, then they can withdraw the prosecution and avoid wasting the court's time with a prosecution that was never going to succeed. Similarly, if on reading the prosecution's position you find that your case is hopeless, you can change your plea to guilty and save time in court.

 

[kefty]

I'm now filling out the plea form to be sent out tomorrow. After considering everyone's submission here based on their various experiences, we have decided to plead not guilty.

@Hadders @island @furlong @WesternLancer kindly help me out with what to put in the box below. To explain that the prosecutor used the wrong bye law.

Thank you.

 

[JordR]

@Hadders @island @furlong @WesternLancer kindly help me out with what to put in the box below. To explain that the prosecutor used the wrong bye law.

Thank you.

You really need to be able to express this yourself, given you could end up being asked about it. It's been explained to you in several previous posts in this thread.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm now filling out the plea form to be sent out tomorrow. After considering everyone's submission here based on their various experiences, we have decided to plead not guilty.

@Hadders @island @furlong @WesternLancer kindly help me out with what to put in the box below. To explain that the prosecutor used the wrong bye law.

Thank you.

Apols as this isn’t my area of expertise. But hopefully one of the experts up thread can help with the form of words. I do agree it’s important to get this right on paperwork like this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2025 ==

You really need to be able to express this yourself, given you could end up being asked about it. It's been explained to you in several previous posts in this thread.

It’s a long thread. Might help the op if you could give the numbered posts that detail that to help avoid any confusion. OP can then craft their wording and post it here for checking before completing the official paperwork and sending it off.

 

[Hadders]

I'm now filling out the plea form to be sent out tomorrow. After considering everyone's submission here based on their various experiences, we have decided to plead not guilty.

@Hadders @island @furlong @WesternLancer kindly help me out with what to put in the box below. To explain that the prosecutor used the wrong bye law.

Thank you.

Have a read of what I put in post #45, especially point 2.

In my opinion, pleading not guilty on this sort of technicality really requires professional representation.