Stagecoach Cashless Trial - Illegal?

[JGurney]

It's actually quite easy to get a prepaid debit card that can be topped up at Paypoint stores

Is it? I am not familiar with these (using debit and credit cards linked to my bank accounts) but a bit of searching suggests that they tend to either have fees involved or to involve managing them online or through smartphone apps, or indeed both. Fees are off-putting to those on limited budgets who avoid cards for fear of overspending, and many people without cards are also either without or are fearful of online access.

 

[Mwanesh]

I have been working on the busses for ages .Around 10 years ago i could cash over a £1000 pounds on a Monday morning shift .3 weeks ago i did agency work same depot i only took 50 pounds most of my sales were card payments .

 

[stadler]

Is it? I am not familiar with these (using debit and credit cards linked to my bank accounts) but a bit of searching suggests that they tend to either have fees involved or to involve managing them online or through smartphone apps, or indeed both. Fees are off-putting to those on limited budgets who avoid cards for fear of overspending, and many people without cards are also either without or are fearful of online access.

Yes this is a major issue with those prepaid cards. They all charge quite significant fees. Also you normally have to apply for the card online first. Once you have the card you can top up in a Pay Point or Pay Zone but you first need to go online to apply for it. None of the ones i am aware of let you just go in to a convenience shop and get the card. So this will be a barrier to most people. Also they charge very high fees. Many of them charge both a fee every time to top up the card and a fee to spend the money on the card. Looking online many are as high as a 5% fee. So you are losing a lot of money. It varies by card but none of them are free of fees.

The only prepaid card i am aware of that you can actually get in a shop is the Vanilla prepaid card. This is available at most W H Smith stores and Post Office branches and the gift card section of major Supermarket chains. However this is a single use card. You can only load it once for an amount between £25 and £100 and it can not be reloaded once you have spent all the money on it. Also it charges a very high fee. Last time i checked it was around 10% fee. So to load it with £25.00 you pay £27.50 or to load it with £50.00 you pay £55.00 or to load it with £75.00 you pay £82.50 or to load it with £100.00 you pay £110.00 etc. So you lose lots of money.

These prepaid cards are not an alternative to cash. A lot of people seem to think they are but they are really not. They are difficult to get hold of. They charge fees. People without bank accounts will be put off by these and many will find them difficult to use. They are definitely not the solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it? I am not familiar with these (using debit and credit cards linked to my bank accounts) but a bit of searching suggests that they tend to either have fees involved or to involve managing them online or through smartphone apps, or indeed both. Fees are off-putting to those on limited budgets who avoid cards for fear of overspending, and many people without cards are also either without or are fearful of online access.

These, of course, are all choices, and I see no reason, morally or legally, why choices should be accommodated.

Disabilities must, both by law and morally, receive reasonable adjustments. Refuseniks deserve neither. If they choose to eschew parts of modern life such as payment cards and the Internet, they are increasingly making a choice to shut themselves out of aspects of modern life. That is their choice, and with that choice comes consequences.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2025 ==

These prepaid cards are not an alternative to cash. A lot of people seem to think they are but they are really not. They are difficult to get hold of. They charge fees. People without bank accounts will be put off by these and many will find them difficult to use. They are definitely not the solution.

The solution, frankly, is that people use their payment card their bank gave them to pay for their fare.

If they choose not to do that, they do have other options, some of which come at a cost because delivering them has a cost.

Cash acceptance on buses has major disadvantages. It slows operation, it increases risk of assault for the driver and the costs of processing it are high. To be fair the former two can be mitigated by using an exact change farebox system, but you've got to install that so the costs go up. It's not at all like a shop.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have been working on the busses for ages .Around 10 years ago i could cash over a £1000 pounds on a Monday morning shift .3 weeks ago i did agency work same depot i only took 50 pounds most of my sales were card payments .

Exactly this. I do wonder if those who are getting bent out of shape actually travel on buses, or at least, buses outside of London, and see how few cash fares are actually made these days. It really is miniscule. Half the passengers are pensioners anyway.

Also, I keep hearing this talk about how passengers delay things because they have to have a discussion with the driver. Most of the time, that doesn't happen and when it does, it's usually asking a query about where the bus stops etc.

And @RT4038 is right to mention that once upon a time, everyone was paid in cash, usually on a Thursday with a small brown envelope. You'd not think that was right in this day and age!

 

[Snex]

I don't know if it's been mentioned but surely most the people with disabilities will have a pass anyway? It's not just pensioners who get them.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I don't know if it's been mentioned but surely most the people with disabilities will have a pass anyway? It's not just pensioners who get them.

Yes exactly. You'll find similar mentions on several posts through this thread.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, I keep hearing this talk about how passengers delay things because they have to have a discussion with the driver. Most of the time, that doesn't happen and when it does, it's usually asking a query about where the bus stops etc.

What's meant by "a discussion with the driver" isn't an actual discussion, but rather:

"City centre please"
"£3 please"
"Hang on a second until I've entered the fare" (puts hand over contactless pad)
<taps>
"Here you go"
<takes ticket>

Not an actual lengthy discussion, but rather that exchange. The thing is that exchange takes about 10 seconds, rather than London style tapping in which doesn't even require breaking stride. Ten seconds times six passengers is a minute. That time therefore matters. A lot.

Anyone who thinks it doesn't needs to go to London and watch a double decker load 30 passengers in the time a provincial bus would take to load about three.

 

[johncrossley]

I was on a Stagecoach bus recently (so no tap in tap out) and it was 12 minutes late after 15 minutes scheduled run time. It was totally down to boarding time. Nothing to do with road traffic. Ticket issuing was taking so long that we left the terminus 5 minutes late. Then at the next stop there were about 10 people who all needed to be processed by the driver, making us 8 minutes late. So issuing tickets manually at just 2 stops wasted at least 5 minutes compared to London.

The timetable is not to blame, because if you look at bustimes.org, most buses can meet the timetable. So it is late when a decent load wants to get on but not otherwise.

People who are happy with Stagecoach boarding times obviously aren't used to how quickly buses in London board.

 

[Andyh82]

You cut all that out and then an old person boards who takes ages to board, ages to present their pass, and then ages to get seated

Then at the next stop a wheelchair user is waiting, where the ramp has to be deployed

Two stops later, the old person wants to alight, and also wants to have a lengthy discussion about what time the bus to the hospital leaves to get them there before 9am next Tuesday

Two stops later, the wheelchair user wants to alight…

So they’ve spent loads on London style payments and the bus is still 5 minutes behind schedule

 

[Bletchleyite]

You cut all that out and then an old person boards who takes ages to board, ages to present their pass, and then ages to get seated

Then at the next stop a wheelchair user is waiting, where the ramp has to be deployed

Two stops later, the old person wants to alight, and also wants to have a lengthy discussion about what time the bus to the hospital leaves to get them there before 9am next Tuesday

Two stops later, the wheelchair user wants to alight…

So they’ve spent loads on London style payments and the bus is still 5 minutes behind schedule

Without the London style boarding it'd have been 10 minutes.

 

[johncrossley]

You cut all that out and then an old person boards who takes ages to board, ages to present their pass, and then ages to get seated

Then at the next stop a wheelchair user is waiting, where the ramp has to be deployed

Two stops later, the old person wants to alight, and also wants to have a lengthy discussion about what time the bus to the hospital leaves to get them there before 9am next Tuesday

Two stops later, the wheelchair user wants to alight…

So they’ve spent loads on London style payments and the bus is still 5 minutes behind schedule

In my example nearly all the passengers were buying normal priced adult single fares or day tickets (this was in Scotland so no fare cap) and none of the passengers had mobility problems.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What's meant by "a discussion with the driver" isn't an actual discussion, but rather:

"City centre please"
"£3 please"
"Hang on a second until I've entered the fare" (puts hand over contactless pad)
<taps>
"Here you go"
<takes ticket>

Not an actual lengthy discussion, but rather that exchange. The thing is that exchange takes about 10 seconds, rather than London style tapping in which doesn't even require breaking stride. Ten seconds times six passengers is a minute. That time therefore matters. A lot.

Anyone who thinks it doesn't needs to go to London and watch a double decker load 30 passengers in the time a provincial bus would take to load about three.

Well, funnily enough, I've been in the smoke this weekend.

However, I also travel on plenty of provincial buses. The fact is that the number of passengers is fewer, the number of passengers buying a ticket is much fewer (again - most are scanning a twirly pass or some sort of app) and as for cash... It's a rare thing to see.

Whilst I can't comment on Caledonian delays, I was travelling in Bath and Bristol and the issue of boarding delays from driver interactions... minimal. Issues from badly parked cars, general congestion, badly phased traffic lights, road works and lack of bus priority - much more of an issue. Improving dwell times is laudable but it's like a woman doing their makeup when their hair is on fire.

ps I did have a slight chuckle when sat on a bus yesterday - having effortlessly tapped in with my card and sat down to enjoy the TfL posters on cyberflashing, we were then stuck at a junction for 3 mins trying to turn LEFT. Not Central London either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst I can't comment on Caledonian delays, I was travelling in Bath and Bristol and the issue of boarding delays from driver interactions... minimal. Issues from badly parked cars, general congestion, badly phased traffic lights, road works and lack of bus priority - much more of an issue. Improving dwell times is laudable but it's like a woman doing their makeup when their hair is on fire.

I really don't get this argument. Bus companies should do everything in their power to speed their operations, then they have a good argument to push back against Councils who don't do their bit. "I can't be bothered because you can't be bothered" is just a really weak argument. Particularly because (a) TOTO is supported "as standard" by Ticketer (though admittedly to get the best out of it you do need an additional tap device on the pole for people to use on exit), and (b) you could just do tap on in many cases because the fare is just £3 for everyone.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I really don't get this argument. Bus companies should do everything in their power to speed their operations, then they have a good argument to push back against Councils who don't do their bit. "I can't be bothered because you can't be bothered" is just a really weak argument. Particularly because (a) TOTO is supported "as standard" by Ticketer (though admittedly to get the best out of it you do need an additional tap device on the pole for people to use on exit), and (b) you could just do tap on in many cases because the fare is just £3 for everyone.

I'm not certain what you're not getting?

Cash fares being proffered have declined over time, massively. That's a fact.

Why have cash fares declined? Operators have been pushing off bus purchases through mobile ticketing and have been for years - not least because it helps their cashflow AND customer loyalty. In my local area, m-tickets were rolled out in 2015 and TOTO in 2022. When I was "resting" between jobs and undertaking courses, I was travelling into Bristol and the balance to mobile tickets was pronounced and that was 2017.

The times you hear a ticket issued (rather than the bleep of a pass being recorded) is getting pretty scarce. There might have been an upswing in £2 tickets being issued as non regular users took advantage of the offer but even then, it wasn't material.

Consider - operators are having to increase journey times and against a backdrop of greater automation of fares (with m-tickets and TOTO) and fewer passengers. Yet the issue is clearly dwell times...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not certain what you're not getting?

The moan of "but external factors" when London demonstrates that speeding up fare collection even in the background of poor road conditions reduces peak vehicle requirement and improves customer satisfaction due to faster running times.

Consider - operators are having to increase journey times and against a backdrop of greater automation of fares (with m-tickets and TOTO) and fewer passengers. Yet the issue is clearly dwell times...

There are multiple issues and fixing them is not mutually exclusive like people on here seem to repeatedly suggest it is. As I said, bus companies have a better argument for the stuff out of their control to be fixed if they are doing absolutely everything within their power to fix the things that are in their control.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The moan of "but external factors" when London demonstrates that speeding up fare collection even in the background of poor road conditions reduces peak vehicle requirement and improves customer satisfaction due to faster running times

That's simply not true. In fact, this report from London Travelwatch https://www.londontravelwatch.org.u...The-next-stop-Making-Londons-buses-better.pdf explicitly says that...

Slow journey times and lack of reliability. These were some of the biggest areas of criticism from passengers. Most of our respondents wanted journey times to be faster, perhaps unsurprisingly given the drop in average bus speed over the past two years. (pg 10)

...and there are plenty of other examples within that document.

There are multiple issues and fixing them is not mutually exclusive like people on here seem to repeatedly suggest it is. As I said, bus companies have a better argument for the stuff out of their control to be fixed if they are doing absolutely everything within their power to fix the things that are in their control.

So to flip the other way round... Until bus companies do absolutely everything to squeeze out every last productivity improvement from within their control (ignoring the trade-offs such as having dual doors reducing seated capacity and having high capital and revenue costs) then local authorities can simply not bother?

As I pointed out, bus companies have massively reduced the amount of cash sales. It's in their interest - lower back office costs, less cash to handle, better data harvesting, improved customer loyalty and it's what they've been doing for the last ten years. M-tickets came to Bristol and Bath in 2015, TOTO in 2022 - all initiatives aimed at improving dwell times. Yet journey times have continued to be extended (compounded by First's crazy AI timetables) with increasing congestion and zero bus priority in that time but yes, it's the bus company's fault as they haven't done absolutely everything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So to flip the other way round... Until bus companies do absolutely everything to squeeze out every last productivity improvement from within their control (ignoring the trade-offs such as having dual doors reducing seated capacity and having high capital and revenue costs) then local authorities can simply not bother?

I'm just being realistic. And in any case the two are not mutually exclusive.

As I pointed out, bus companies have massively reduced the amount of cash sales. It's in their interest - lower back office costs, less cash to handle, better data harvesting, improved customer loyalty and it's what they've been doing for the last ten years. M-tickets came to Bristol and Bath in 2015, TOTO in 2022 - all initiatives aimed at improving dwell times. Yet journey times have continued to be extended (compounded by First's crazy AI timetables) with increasing congestion and zero bus priority in that time but yes, it's the bus company's fault as they haven't done absolutely everything.

Traditional card sales are slower than cash. It's TOTO (and for everything else e.g. group deals off-bus sales) that needs to be be the future.

 

[Discuss223]

And if you wanted your communications to be taken seriously, I very much hope you left out "disgrace" "abhorrent" et cetera in your writing - just as suggested the bit of my post you seemingly felt you didn't need to respond to.

Grateful as I am for your advice, I shall continue to make complaints my own way.

Adjectives are good for emphasis, as is emotive language, it helps to build a strong argument.

I was taught how to create a piece of persuasive writing in my English GCSE at school, I can recommend it.

Sounds like it'll be miniscule, although I guess we're overdue for a "compo face" local news article. Perhaps we can get a local councillor involved to angrily point at a bus stop flag somewhere along route 12?

I have the foresight to see how this could escalate to a company-wide scheme.

What's to say that Stagecoach won't try to do this in other areas of the country?

It's also a matter of principle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have the foresight to see how this could escalate to a company-wide scheme.

What's to say that Stagecoach won't try to do this in other areas of the country?

I personally hope all bus companies introduce mandatory TOTO for adult single fares - the time saved on journeys would be significant as it is in London. A move to mandatory card payment doesn't gain the passenger anything if it's just to a traditional card transaction - it's slightly slower than cash.

 

[Discuss223]

I personally hope all bus companies introduce mandatory TOTO for adult single fares - the time saved on journeys would be significant as it is in London.

Whenever I've travelled on a bus with Tap-On, Tap Off payments, I've become irritated by the amount of time that is spent with someone tapping off to leave the bus, and holding up those behind them, who are also waiting to disembark.

 

[Jimini]

Whenever I've travelled on a bus with Tap-On, Tap Off payments, I've become irritated by the amount of time that is spent with someone tapping off to leave the bus, and holding up those behind them, who are also waiting to disembark.

Agreed (Reading Buses, I’m looking at you).

 

[johncrossley]

Bizarrely, even routes on busways are deliberately slowed down by the operator. For example, the Luton-Dunstable busway and the Cambridgeshire busway have had millions of pounds of taxpayers' money spent on them in order to speed up the route only for the operator to slow them down again. Neither of them have tap in tap out. Maybe it is the local authority to blame here, as they should have forced the operators to use fast boarding like in Bristol. The Manchester-Leigh busway has also been slowed down for some years. It has only just acquired tap and cap in the last few days. And even now, drivers still waste time selling tickets on this route. This seems like gross incompetence from TfGM.

 

[Haywain]

the Luton-Dunstable busway and the Cambridgeshire busway have had millions of pounds of taxpayers' money spent on them in order to speed up the route only for the operator to slow them down again.

As a user of the former, it is true that it could be a bit quicker but it is still significantly faster than the roads between Luton and Dunstable.

 

[AlterEgo]

Grateful as I am for your advice, I shall continue to make complaints my own way.

Adjectives are good for emphasis, as is emotive language, it helps to build a strong argument.

No it doesn’t. In fact people have picked up here how doing so undermines your argument rather than supports it.

 

[richard13]

Few people get paid wages, benefits or pensions in cash. They are paid into a bank account. The government has the Payment Exception Service for those unable to operate a bank account and don't have an attorney. Cash can only be obtained from an account with a Bank card or phone app. The government sees no reason why if you have that mechanism to get cash, that you cannot use it directly to pay for retail services directly, omitting the cash stage. Shops can be cash only, card only or mostly both, but car parks are very variable. Those using cash tend to be either because you can, you are using it to budget, or you aren't comfortable with technology, none of which has to be accommodated by the seller.

First Bristol did a study years ago (2017?), filming the boarding process and found that card payments averaged under 10 secs, where as cash payments were more like 90 secs. On busy double deck routes they could save 1 bus and 2 drivers with cards rather than cash for the same service. Cards had a 50p discount per single for a while to encourage the change over, which has happened.

Tap on - tap off or ENTCS passes, etc are fast particularly as tap off is very often not needed as apart from short hop, the rest is flat fare. Cash often needs 2 hands, so put shopping down, find purse, ask for fare, pay, get change, put it away, collect shopping, carry on.

Stagecoach's trial may be interesting to observe, depending on the details.

 

[Edvid]

For example, the Luton-Dunstable busway and the Cambridgeshire busway have had millions of pounds of taxpayers' money spent on them in order to speed up the route only for the operator to slow them down again. Neither of them have tap in tap out.

Specific operators on both busways have it - Whippet in Cambridge (only between the railway station and Biomedical Campus, granted) and Grant Palmer in Luton/Dunstable (though I rarely see other GP passengers use TOTO).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm just being realistic. And in any case the two are not mutually exclusive.



Traditional card sales are slower than cash. It's TOTO (and for everything else e.g. group deals off-bus sales) that needs to be be the future.

As I've said, even traditional card sales are much reduced. The days of used tickets strewn on the floor are now gone. I was travelling the other week in Plymouth. In an hour where probably 30 separate journeys took place, I heard the ticket machine issue a fare TWICE. That's obviously just one experience but the fact is that driver interactions are now much fewer. In fact, TOTO isn't the future - it's the present. Arriva, Go Ahead, First all have it and they are pushing it, and with good reason. They see the benefit over taking cash (and even card payments). First Bristol did the sums and @richard13 is right to cite James Freeman and his push to get people to use m-tickets and card; if I remember rightly, they had at least seven vehicles painted bright pink to promote them as well as extensive advertising. Not only does it save some dwell time, it's the benefits you don't see as a passenger - the improved cashflow, the reduced back office costs, etc.

Perhaps another James Freeman reference is when they introduced new fleet to the metrobus m3 route in Bristol. So that was new buses, no onboard fares sold (either m-tickets or from stops), dual doored deckers... and South Gloucestershire Council removed the bus lane at Hambrook so the vehicles were stuck in traffic. That is the reality - bus companies can never get the dwell time savings to anywhere near what half decent bus priority can deliver. Most can point to what they are doing... most local authorities have done next to nothing.

Grateful as I am for your advice, I shall continue to make complaints my own way.

Adjectives are good for emphasis, as is emotive language, it helps to build a strong argument.

I was taught how to create a piece of persuasive writing in my English GCSE at school, I can recommend it.

Well, you've not exactly persuaded folks on this board with such language. Emotive language is only useful if it doesn't smack of hyperbole otherwise you will have the opposite effect of what you want.

I have the foresight to see how this could escalate to a company-wide scheme.

What's to say that Stagecoach won't try to do this in other areas of the country?

It's also a matter of principle.

It is undoubtedly the case that it is being trialled in order to see if it worth rolling out further. If passenger figures slump, then they won't but if there's no change, then they will extend it.

Bizarrely, even routes on busways are deliberately slowed down by the operator. For example, the Luton-Dunstable busway and the Cambridgeshire busway have had millions of pounds of taxpayers' money spent on them in order to speed up the route only for the operator to slow them down again.

Perhaps the issues on the busways with them being slowed down might have had something to other reasons...

 

[Starmill]

These, of course, are all choices, and I see no reason, morally or legally, why choices should be accommodated.

Disabilities must, both by law and morally, receive reasonable adjustments. Refuseniks deserve neither. If they choose to eschew parts of modern life such as payment cards and the Internet, they are increasingly making a choice to shut themselves out of aspects of modern life. That is their choice, and with that choice comes consequences.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2025 ==



The solution, frankly, is that people use their payment card their bank gave them to pay for their fare.

If they choose not to do that, they do have other options, some of which come at a cost because delivering them has a cost.

Cash acceptance on buses has major disadvantages. It slows operation, it increases risk of assault for the driver and the costs of processing it are high. To be fair the former two can be mitigated by using an exact change farebox system, but you've got to install that so the costs go up. It's not at all like a shop.

The government could look at some of these points about access for the financially excluded. For example a Jobcentre Plus scheme could give free prepaid cards to anyone on their roll for Universal Credit. Then it'd save them having to pay for the post office / Paypoint cash payment option for benefits / pensions, not that I think many people use that any more. The government should also look to allow free and instant access to prepaid cards for homeless people, or those living in refuges. Charities that already help those in these circumstances may already have something similar in place that could be beefed up.

Obviously, all of this takes funding and staff time, but frankly that's what taxation is there for. It is not for the bus industry or others to have to deal with this forever. I support keeping a cash option only in the short term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The government could look at some of these points about access for the financially excluded. For example a Jobcentre Plus scheme could give free prepaid cards to anyone on their roll for Universal Credit. Then it'd save them having to pay for the post office / Paypoint cash payment option for benefits / pensions, not that I think many people use that any more. The government should also look to allow free and instant access to prepaid cards for homeless people, or those living in refuges. Charities that already help those in these circumstances may already have something similar in place that could be beefed up.

Yes, agreed with all that. Basic bank accounts are close, but perhaps too complex for some and do require e.g. an address in most cases.