2 failed appeals Southeastern

[mattb76]

I’m on my last appeal and not sure which route to go. On my day of travel at the departing station a police incident was going on which prevented me from purchasing a ticket, as soon as I arrived at my arriving destination I informed the guard at the station that I needed to purchase a ticket. I explained where I had travelled from, that no guard was on the train and that I was making him aware that I needed to purchase one, instead I was given a fine which I have appealed twice. I have explained that an arrest was happening at the station which was blocking the entrance to purchase a ticket from the machine. No guard on the train available and that at the first opportunity I made the guard at the arriving station aware that I needed to purchase. Where do I go with my 3rd appeal. I am more than happy to go to court over this

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you have any proof of the police incident? What was the date, and which station was this? Please also upload a copy of the notice with your details obscured so we can see if there is a technical route of appeal.

 

[furlong]

and copies of the appeals and responses please too, so people can see why the appeals were denied

 

[mattb76]

Copy of notice

 

[Cuthbert]

Copy of notice

Your reference number and surname is readable on each picture. You will want to redact that information.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hopefully someone will be along to give chapter and verse (because it will be important to reference the railway's rules, rather than relying on whoever deals with the appeal knowing them off the top of their head) but I think you will need to
- explain precisely what happened, with as much evidence as possible. This will need to cover when you couldn't buy the ticket, your journey (when you still couldn't buy a ticket) and what happened at your destination.
- state the rules. This will include who has to prove their story in a penalty fare appeal, the railway terms and conditions about buying tickets, and the law and byelaws about the same.
- how the rules impact on the facts, and why this means you did nothing wrong, so shouldn't have to pay a penalty.

A couple of practical points:
- don't assume that the appeal officer will have read or seen the previous appeals. Spell everything out.
- if you do this online there may be a character limit. If so, don't do it online - explain everything properly and send it in by post.

 

[mattb76]

Letter sent outlining why they think their correct

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2025 ==

1st letter back from them

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2025 ==

1st appeal

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2025 ==

2nd Appeal that was rejected

 

[Hadders]

The assessor seems to have missed the point you were trying to make. I think you need to clearly make the following points in your final appeal:

• That you arrived at the station in good time to purchase a ticket
• A violent incident was taking place, with police in attendance that prevented the ticket purchasing facilities from being accessed. Consequently, although records will show that ticket machines at the station were working they could not be used and so you boarded the train in accordance with condition 6.1 of the NRCoT
• Station staff instructed you to enter the platform via an alternative route and purchase your ticket at the earliest opportunity (is this what happened?)
• The guard did not come through the train and so you attempted to purchase your ticket at your destination

It would be helpful if you could obtain and include any further details about the police presence. A police reference number for the incident would be extremely useful. I doubt the police would give this to you but it might be worth asking them because it would add weight to your case. If the incident took place within the last 31 days then it might be worth submitting a subject access request showing you being prevented from accessing the ticket purchasing facilities. If the incident did take place less than 31 days ago you will need to act very fast as you'll be tight to the deadline.

 

[furlong]

So while it is uncontested that there were facilities in operation, perhaps the person handling the appeal didn't pay attention to the words at the end of the clause?

6(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—
(a) there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey;

It was for the company to prove what you wrote was false i.e. that you could have purchased a ticket there - but clearly in the circumstances you describe, evidence of transactions on its own shouldn't suffice for this purpose. E.g. the company might provide evidence from staff on duty or the police. If they can't disprove what you said, then your appeal is supposed to be upheld:

16(4) Where the appellant makes representations as part of an appeal under this regulation in relation to any of the matters specified in paragraph (5), it is for the operator on whose behalf the penalty
fare was charged to provide evidence that reasonably demonstrates that any fact described by the appellant in relation to any of those matters is not true.
(5) The matters referred to in paragraph (4) are—
(a) in circumstances where the appellant was charged a penalty fare in relation to travelling by, being present on, or leaving a train—
...
(iii) whether any of the circumstances mentioned in regulations 6(2) applied;

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2025 ==

The company agreeing with you that the ticket machines were in operation surely cannot reasonably demonstrate that what you wrote about not being able access them was not true!

 

[SuspectUsual]

The company agreeing with you that the ticket machines were in operation surely cannot reasonably demonstrate that what you wrote about not being able access them was not true!

Perhaps the OP could invite the assessor to check how many tickets were sold by those machines in the period they wanted to use them. If it’s zero it corroborates the argument

 

[pedr]

I don't understand the layout of the station, but might it be the case that a person who had entered the London-bound part of the station prior to the police incident could purchase a ticket from the machines or ticket office in that part of the station, but that someone who could only enter the other part of the station due to the blockade did not have a ticket machine available to them?

The appeal assessors are not likely to do any investigation or know anything other than what they are told, so if there is context about the way in which the station provides access to the machine it might assist to directly spell that out. Does a passenger have to exit the station entirely after buying a ticket from the machine, in order to get to the Ashford-bound platform? If that isn't the case then it doesn't make sense that a person could buy a ticket at 18:15, 18:16, and 18:20. So an appeal probably needs to carefully explain the precise mechanism by which it was impossible to buy a ticket for an Ashford-bound service.