Boundary Zone 6 to Brighton on Gatwick Express?

[lightbulb]

Hello all,

My partner and I are travelling from Victoria to Brighton on Friday 4th April, and returning on Saturday 5th. I see that all services (apart from a few late evening ones) are now operated by Gatwick Express. We each have a Disabled Persons Railcard, my partner has a Disabled Person's Freedom Pass, and I have a 60+ Oyster Card. As Gatwick Express trains now run non-stop between Victoria and Gatwick, am I right in thinking that neither of us could use a SVR from Boundary Zone 6 (£25.90) in conjunction with our Freedom Pass and 60+ Oyster Card?

 

[talldave]

You can use BZ6 tickets. Weirdly, BRfares shows that ticket as having lots of Paddington based restrictions (4B)??

 

[signed]

As Gatwick Express trains now run non-stop between Victoria and Gatwick, am I right in thinking that neither of us could use a SVR from Boundary Zone 6 (£25.90) in conjunction with our Freedom Pass and 60+ Oyster Card?

You can use them as one of your ticket is a zonal ticket

 

[yorkie]

Hello all,

My partner and I are travelling from Victoria to Brighton on Friday 4th April, and returning on Saturday 5th. I see that all services (apart from a few late evening ones) are now operated by Gatwick Express. We each have a Disabled Persons Railcard, my partner has a Disabled Person's Freedom Pass, and I have a 60+ Oyster Card. As Gatwick Express trains now run non-stop between Victoria and Gatwick, am I right in thinking that neither of us could use a SVR from Boundary Zone 6 (£25.90) in conjunction with our Freedom Pass and 60+ Oyster Card?

Absolutely you can.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2025 ==

You can use BZ6 tickets. Weirdly, BRfares shows that ticket as having lots of Paddington based restrictions (4B)??

The same restriction code is used for a variety of flows.

 

[talldave]

The same restriction code is used for a variety of flows.

I queried this because the CDR uses B1 whilst the SDR uses B4, which adds Paddington specific evening restrictions. Totally illogical for a Brighton ticket. It should clearly be B1.

 

[Haywain]

Differing from the above answers, I will point out that the 60+ Oyster is not valid on Gatwick Express services.

 

[lightbulb]

Differing from the above answers, I will point out that the 60+ Oyster is not valid on Gatwick Express services.

So if I've understood correctly, both the 60+ Oyster and Freedom Pass are Zonal tickets, and are therefore valid on the Gatwick Express, but only in conjunction with a Boundary Zone 6 ticket?

 

[island]

So if I've understood correctly, both the 60+ Oyster and Freedom Pass are Zonal tickets, and are therefore valid on the Gatwick Express, but only in conjunction with a Boundary Zone 6 ticket?

The T&Cs of the 60+ Oyster specifically state it is not valid on Heathrow, Gatwick, or Stansted Express services.

 

[Haywain]

So if I've understood correctly, both the 60+ Oyster and Freedom Pass are Zonal tickets, and are therefore valid on the Gatwick Express, but only in conjunction with a Boundary Zone 6 ticket?

Zonal tickets can still have restrictions - for example, Freedom Passes are not accepted on LNER services.

 

[island]

Zonal tickets can still have restrictions - for example, Freedom Passes are not accepted on LNER services.

Indeed, and off-peak day Travelcards are not valid before 0930 on weekdays.

 

[lightbulb]

Zonal tickets can still have restrictions - for example, Freedom Passes are not accepted on LNER services.

So is the rule of thumb that Freedom Passes and Oyster 60+ are not valid (even with in conjunction with a Boundary Zone 6 ticket) on any operator whose trains do not stop within the London Zones? If so, GWR should no longer accept them, but I travelled this week to Reading on a Boundary Zone 6 ticket, and this was accepted by the on-board ticket staff. However, the barriers at Paddington did not allow the 60+ Oyster, and I was let through manually.

 

[jfollows]

So is the rule of thumb that Freedom Passes and Oyster 60+ are not valid (even with in conjunction with a Boundary Zone 6 ticket) on any operator whose trains do not stop within the London Zones? If so, GWR should no longer accept them, but I travelled this week to Reading on a Boundary Zone 6 ticket, and this was accepted by the on-board ticket staff. However, the barriers at Paddington did not allow the 60+ Oyster, and I was let through manually.

No, they’re explicitly barred from some operators, LNER & Avanti, airport express services, but not GWR.

An old statement is

The freedom pass is NOT valid for travel on train services operated by Arriva CrossCountry, Grand Central, Hull Trains, East Midlands Trains, Gatwick Express, National Express East Coast, Virgin Trains, and Heathrow Express, or on Heathrow Connect between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow.

but I can’t find the updated current version.

 

[MrJeeves]

Internal sources state that:

Exclusions​

Travel is NOT permitted at ANY TIME on services operated by:

• Avanti West Coast
• East Midlands Railway
• Gatwick Express
• Grand Central
• Heathrow Express
• Hull Trains
• LNER

A Freedom Pass, unlike the 60+ Oyster, would be valid on Gatwick Express (after 0930 on weekdays) with an accompanying Boundary Zone 6 to Gatwick Airport (or further south) ticket.

 

[pelli]

Here is a public source, where Gatwick Express is expressly listed as an exception to the exceptions, so a Freedom Pass plus "extension ticket" is valid: https://archive.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/using-pass/national-rail

Your Freedom Pass allows you to travel in Standard Class on most local rail services in London, during the following times:

• Monday to Friday from 9.30am and until 4.30am the following morning
• at any time on weekends and public holidays

To find out which routes Freedom Pass holders can travel free for 24 hours check the Freedom Pass travel map. For borough-by-borough exclusions visit our exclusions map

The Freedom Pass is not valid for travel on train services operated by:

• East Midlands Trains
• Grand Central
• Hull Trains
• Gatwick Express (Only available with the purchase of an extension ticket at the start of your journey)
• Heathrow Express
• London North Eastern Railway
• Southeastern high speed services to and from St Pancras International and Stratford International

If you are travelling by National Rail you need to make sure you are travelling within the Freedom Pass boundaries or you may receive a penalty fare. If you wish to travel beyond the Freedom Pass area you must buy a separate extension ticket before you travel. Extension tickets used in conjunction with a Freedom Pass are NOT valid on services operated by any of the Train Companies listed above (with the exception of the Gatwick Express). Always show your Freedom Pass with your photograph at the ticket office when buying extension tickets. Holders of Senior and Disabled Persons Railcards may be able to obtain a discount on the price of extension tickets.

(A similar passage is found at https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/how-use-your-freedom-pass , under "National Rail".)

 

[MrJeeves]

Back to the initial question that prompted this whole discussion, though...

I see that all services (apart from a few late evening ones) are now operated by Gatwick Express.

You could use Southern service towards Ore/Eastbourne/Littlehampton as far as Haywards Heath, where you can make a same-island transfer to a Thameslink service to Brighton.

Alternatively, use a Littlehampton service and change at Hove for a service to Brighton (but this typically involves going through the station subway to another platform).

If you want to have a wider variety of options, you could also use Southern to East Croydon or Gatwick Airport and change at these for a Thameslink service (or even a Gatwick Express service!) to Brighton. These are larger stations, so a transfer will take longer, but there are a wider array of services that would result in more frequent connections.

Any of these might be more preferable, and allow you to make best use of your combination of passes to get to Brighton.

 

[island]

Here is a public source, where Gatwick Express is expressly listed as an exception to the exceptions, so a Freedom Pass plus "extension ticket" is valid: https://archive.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/using-pass/national-rail

(A similar passage is found at https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/how-use-your-freedom-pass , under "National Rail".)

I think it's clear that a Freedom Pass is valid on Gatwick Express in conjunction with a boundary zone ticket.

But a 60+ Oyster is not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2025 ==

So is the rule of thumb that Freedom Passes and Oyster 60+ are not valid (even with in conjunction with a Boundary Zone 6 ticket) on any operator whose trains do not stop within the London Zones? If so, GWR should no longer accept them

GWR does operate trains within the London zones, e.g. West Ealing to Greenford.

 

[Watershed]

GWR does operate trains within the London zones, e.g. West Ealing to Greenford.

Plus, during the small hours of the night, they also operate 4 trains each way between Reading and Paddington which call at West Drayton, Hayes & Harlington, Southall and Ealing Broadway.

 

[soil]

I think it's clear that a Freedom Pass is valid on Gatwick Express in conjunction with a boundary zone ticket.

But a 60+ Oyster is not.

The GX website states:

https://www.gatwickexpress.com/discounts-and-offers/railcards-and-student-discounts

Certain types of Oyster cards allow passengers to travel free on some National Rail services within London Zones 1-6. For travel on Gatwick Express you will need to purchase an extension ticket when travelling outside the valid London Zones 1-6."

That makes it very plain that you can simply buy a BZ6 or Coulsdon South ticket for a 60+ Oyster.

The Freedom Pass, which is not an Oyster card, is separately listed:

Free travel with a London Freedom Pass is only valid on Gatwick Express services between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport under the following conditions:

• An extension ticket must be purchased before travelling to cover your journey outside the London Freedom Pass zone between Coulsdon South and Gatwick Airport
• Travel is only valid from 9.30am and until 4.30am weekdays, and any time on weekends and public holidays

 

[MrJeeves]

The GX website states:

https://www.gatwickexpress.com/discounts-and-offers/railcards-and-student-discounts
Certain types of Oyster cards allow passengers to travel free on some National Rail services within London Zones 1-6. For travel on Gatwick Express you will need to purchase an extension ticket when travelling outside the valid London Zones 1-6."

That makes it very plain that you can simply buy a BZ6 or Coulsdon South ticket for a 60+ Oyster.

Well, no, it says that if your "certain type" of Oyster permits travel on that National Rail service, then you need to buy the extension ticket.

 

[soil]

Well, no, it says that if your "certain type" of Oyster permits travel on that National Rail service, then you need to buy the extension ticket.

which type of Oyster would that be then?

 

[MrJeeves]

which type of Oyster would that be then?

Something like the Veterans Oyster, for example? Or the ages 5-10 Zip Oyster?

 

[island]

That makes it very plain that you can simply buy a BZ6 or Coulsdon South ticket for a 60+ Oyster.

Except it doesn't.

 

[soil]

Something like the Veterans Oyster, for example? Or the ages 5-10 Zip Oyster?

TFL says "No".

Single fare finder

Find fares between any two stations in London

tfl.gov.uk

Victoria - Gatwick PAYG adult £24, 5-10 Zip £12
also t&cs at https://photocard.tfl.gov.uk/termsAndConditions say

"The photocard allows children aged between 5-10 years old to travel free on Tube, DLR, Elizabeth line (excluding between West Drayton and Reading), London Overground and most National Rail services where pay as you go is accepted. They can pay as you go at child rate on the London Cable Car, Gatwick Express and Southeastern high speed between St. Pancras International and Stratford International. "

further https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-0439-212...scounts-and-Photocards-1-March-2021-final.pdf

also says Veterans Oyster is not valid on Gatwick Express and that 5-10 Oyster gets no free travel on Gatwick Express
"5 - 10 Zip Oyster photocard holders travel free where pay as you go is accepted, except on Southeastern high speed 1, between Epsom and zone 6, Gatwick Express and Southern and Thameslink services between Coulsdon South and Gatwick Airport where they are charged at child-rate "

 

[yorkie]

Gatwick Express is not a TOC and GTR has no rights to refuse a 60+ Oyster in conjunction with a Boundary Zone ticket.

It wasn't valid back when it was a premium operator, but those days have been long gone; any current wording is probably intended to serve as a reminder that you can't go to Gatwick on it and/or simply a relic of an old restriction that is no longer relevant.

If anyone is charged an excess fare, then I would be interested to hear about it, and would assist in recovering any monies erroneously charged by GTR.

 

[MrJeeves]

TFL says "No".

Single fare finder

Find fares between any two stations in London

tfl.gov.uk

Victoria - Gatwick PAYG adult £24, 5-10 Zip £12
also t&cs at https://photocard.tfl.gov.uk/termsAndConditions say

"The photocard allows children aged between 5-10 years old to travel free on Tube, DLR, Elizabeth line (excluding between West Drayton and Reading), London Overground and most National Rail services where pay as you go is accepted. They can pay as you go at child rate on the London Cable Car, Gatwick Express and Southeastern high speed between St. Pancras International and Stratford International. "

further https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-0439-212...scounts-and-Photocards-1-March-2021-final.pdf

also says Veterans Oyster is not valid on Gatwick Express and that 5-10 Oyster gets no free travel on Gatwick Express
"5 - 10 Zip Oyster photocard holders travel free where pay as you go is accepted, except on Southeastern high speed 1, between Epsom and zone 6, Gatwick Express and Southern and Thameslink services between Coulsdon South and Gatwick Airport where they are charged at child-rate "

I never said they get free travel. Of course they don't.

5-10 will be charged PAYG child rate, but similarly they could buy a child BZ6 extension which would be equally valid for their journey.

I can't find anything public-facing about GX being excluded from the Veterans Oyster. It may be in some terms which you only see and agree to after being determined as eligible, but a cursory glance didn't find any FOI responses for this.

 

[talldave]

Gatwick Express isn't mentioned on TfL's 60+ Oyster free National Rail map, whereas Heathrow Express and HS1 are explicitly shown as not valid.

The map south of Coulsdon South is shown as not valid, but that’s where the BZ ticket comes in to play.

 

[island]

Gatwick Express is not a TOC and GTR has no rights to refuse a 60+ Oyster in conjunction with a Boundary Zone ticket.

I disagree. The conditions of the 60+ Oyster card, which have been previously linked, expressly state no validity on Gatwick Express services. It makes no difference whether or not Gatwick Express is a TOC.

 

[yorkie]

The idea that veterans need to change trains at somewhere like Gatwick or Haywards Heath id absurd.

GTR are getting the revenue and operate the trains; this outdated rule from a long gone era can't be applied today

I am not going to get into any further arguments on this topic; if anyone was charged an excess then I would help them and put them in touch with a solicitor at no cost to the customer who would be happy to assist.

 

[lightbulb]

Plus, during the small hours of the night, they also operate 4 trains each way between Reading and Paddington which call at West Drayton, Hayes & Harlington, Southall and Ealing Broadway.

Thanks Watershed, I'd forgotten about those!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2025 ==

The idea that veterans need to change trains at somewhere like Gatwick or Haywards Heath id absurd.

GTR are getting the revenue and operate the trains; this outdated rule from a long gone era can't be applied today

I am not going to get into any further arguments on this topic; if anyone was charged an excess then I would help them and put them in touch with a solicitor at no cost to the customer who would be happy to assist.

Thanks, Yorkie. My partner will buy the tickets for both of us on Trainline (it'll be from Coulsdon South, as we understand that online retailers don't sell tickets from Boundary Zone 6), and will report back on the outcome.

Thanks everyone for all your help!

 

[yorkie]

We sell tickets from BZ6!

You have to go to advanced options.

Note you do sometimes end up with a ticket from a named station, but if BZ6 is cheaper, or the only valid option, then that is what you would get.

It relies on custom data, so may not work 100% reliably, but is the best* that can be done with the constraints of the data at present

(*however if anyone has any feedback you can contact us and we will work with the relevant suppliers to see if we can make it any better!)