TPO Questions - What was it like working on these services?

[TrainingDays]

I'm researching a (fictional) story to be set on a UK TPO and am keen to get in touch with crew who worked on any TPO service, anytime between 1960s and 1990s. The hope is just to ask some questions about their time working on those services.

I've tried at the Postal Museum but they haven't any details and my online searches have so far been somewhat fruitless. Might anyone know a good route/resource that might help lead me to some folks who might be willing to answer some questions?

Many thanks

 

[Magdalia]

Have you contacted the Nene Valley Railway? See here:

Nene Valley Railway Ltd

An exciting development has been taking shape at the Nene Valley Railway, with the Night Mail Museum being built alongside Overton Station (for Ferry Meadows). The museum's aim is to tell the story of delivering mail by rail.

Our museum will act as an attraction of the railway to show how mail was sorted throughout the night onboard the Travelling Post Office. This will provide an insight into how mail was delivered from as far back as the 19th century all the way up to 2004.

 

[AndrewE]

or watched "Night Mail?" Still a seriously good informative documentary.
Worth reading the book about the Great Train Robbery too for a bit more background. I am sure there are books by people who worked on them as well.

A chap I worked with claimed to have been a Postal Sorting Carriage worker, he said there was a severe test of competence for promotion to the POS job, like no more than one mis-sort in 200 or something. Not many people out of ordinary sorting offices got there, but of course the shift patterns would have ruled out lots more people anyway. I know could never have hacked it.

 

[midland1]

Try Mail By Rail by Pete Johnson, 1985 and 2022. A quick look on ebay has a few of the 1985 book for less than £10.

 

[WesternLancer]

Great central railway in Loughborough have a TPO set. May also be people there or a support group that includes former staff. @Flying Phil may know more.

 

[TrainingDays]

Have you contacted the Nene Valley Railway? See here:

Nene Valley Railway Ltd

Ah, I haven't - thank you, I'll get in touch with them!

And thank you for the other suggestions - the two Night Mail films have been useful and I've read Pete Johnson's and also the "A Look at the Night Mail" by Brian White. I'm also hoping to hear back from a Facebook group of past employees but nothing yet.

And thanks - I'll give Loughborough at try too!

 

[Magdalia]

also the "A Look at the Night Mail" by Brian White.

I think that Brian White used to be involved at the Nene Valley, but I don't know if he still is now.

 

[Flying Phil]

Great central railway in Loughborough have a TPO set. May also be people there or a support group that includes former staff. @Flying Phil may know more.

I think the Rail Vehicle Preservation group run the TPO mail coaches on the GCR, I believe they have a website for contact details. I did have a ride in the pick up coach on the GCR years ago and was surprised at how violent the pick up was at speed.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think the Rail Vehicle Preservation group run the TPO mail coaches on the GCR, I believe they have a website for contact details. I did have a ride in the pick up coach on the GCR years ago and was surprised at how violent the pick up was at speed.

Thanks for pitching in Phil

 

[AndrewE]

I think the Rail Vehicle Preservation group run the TPO mail coaches on the GCR, I believe they have a website for contact details. I did have a ride in the pick up coach on the GCR years ago and was surprised at how violent the pick up was at speed.

"At speed" presumably being 25 mph! Just imagine it at 60 mph, with kinetic energy being proportional to the square of the speed...
I think the danger from incoming mailbags is highlighted in "Night Mail."

 

[WesternLancer]

"At speed" presumably being 25 mph! Just imagine it at 60 mph, with kinetic energy being proportional to the square of the speed...
I think the danger from incoming mailbags is highlighted in "Night Mail."

No - I think they have dispensation on the GCR to do mail picks ups at faster than there normal running speed - so long as there are not passengers / member of the public on board.

 

[AndrewE]

No - I think they have dispensation on the GCR to do mail picks ups at faster than there normal running speed - so long as there are not passengers / member of the public on board.

I was forgetting that they have higher speed sections of line for testing, but imagined that would be when no members of the public were around at all, rather than just not on the particular train. How do you run a fast train when people are on 25mph trains on a heritage railway?
(Maybe you don't, perhaps it was a closed day with exclusive use for a TPO - so more like running a test train than anything else they do.)

 

[WesternLancer]

I was forgetting that they have higher speed sections of line for testing, but imagined that would be when no members of the public were around at all, rather than just not on the particular train. How do you run a fast train when people are on 25mph trains on a heritage railway?
(Maybe you don't, perhaps it was a closed day with exclusive use for a TPO - so more like running a test train than anything else they do.)

No - I've seen it done on event days (albeit some years ago) - I think they make sure no other trains in the area at that point in time, clear the platforms at Quorn back from the edge - or maybe completely - get everyone over to an area in the car park a reasonable distance form the running line where I assume it was safe to observe from. View was fine. Probably some youtube clips of it now I think about it.

I'm assuming Nene Valley Railways do something similar with their set.

 

[Elwyn]

I have little personal experience of TPOs but in the 1970s I worked with someone who did work on them in the 1950s and early 1960s. Sadly he’s long dead so I can’t ask hm for his memories.

However I recall that he lived in Glasgow, worked for the Post Office on the Glasgow - London TPO. It used to stop at Crewe where the Post Office staff would swap over with the northbound train. So he ended up back in Glasgow early in the morning. I recall him saying that it was a bit noisy and not always that warm but that you were working with colleagues (all male) whom you generally bonded with. Very friendly. Around Christmas it could be a bit busy but the rest of the year they had it nicely under control. There was usually plenty of time for “refreshments” and the odd snooze. His main grumble was that it was, by its nature, “permanent night duty” 5 nights a week and the impact on his social life as a young single man was slightly frustrating.

There was a letter box on the outside of most of the TPO carriages and the public could post late letters directly into the train to ensure delivery in London/Glasgow in the morning. You had to pay something like an extra penny for that. (No doubt an expert will know). I certainly recall my father posting such an urgent letter on the TPO around 9.30pm at Glasgow Central in the early 1960s.

 

[Roger1973]

Must be a year or two ago, I found a website dedicated to TPOs, that included a lot of first hand experiences. After a bit of searching today, I can't find the site, I'm either searching for the wrong thing, or it's fallen off the internet.

Thought I'd mention it here in case anyone can remember what the site was called - even if the site is no longer active, it might be on an archive site somewhere.

 

[WesternLancer]

There was a letter box on the outside of most of the TPO carriages and the public could post late letters directly into the train to ensure delivery in London/Glasgow in the morning. You had to pay something like an extra penny for that. (No doubt an expert will know). I certainly recall my father posting such an urgent letter on the TPO around 9.30pm at Glasgow Central in the early 1960s.

This is correct. I posted some Christmas cards in the side of a TPO at St Pancras station when a student in the early 1990s. By that time first class stamp sufficed iirc. I’d written the cards on my train to StPsncras to post in a letter box but saw the TPO in the platform being loaded so made use of the facility.

I also posted items to myself on the final night of TPO operations in 2004 as the services paused at Derby, to secure the special postal franking on the letters used, on the trains dated for the final occasion this was possible to do.

 

[Flying Phil]

"At speed" presumably being 25 mph! Just imagine it at 60 mph, with kinetic energy being proportional to the square of the speed...
I think the danger from incoming mailbags is highlighted in "Night Mail."

As has been said, there is a dispensation, so the speed at pick up was around 50mph. The people on board were all working members of RVP/GCR/C&W. There are indeed older videos and I believe the (BR Mk1) set could be back in action later this year.

 

[jp4712]

Everyone mentions the film ‘Night Mail’ but I find the 1963 ‘Thirty Million Letters’ more illuminating. And its musical soundtrack is excellent. I don’t think you can see it on YouTube but the DVD is readily available.

 

[Springs Branch]

. . . Around Christmas it could be a bit busy but the rest of the year they had it nicely under control. There was usually plenty of time for “refreshments” and the odd snooze.

I can’t help with sources, but do recall reading that one feature of some TPO trains was provision of a BSK* next to the Sorting Carriage(s) where the Post Office staff could sit in relative comfort after they’d finished their night’s work.

And that the train locomotive was meant to provide steam heating during cooler months to this particular carriage (and presumably to the TPO carriages too), but that this nicety was sometimes overlooked by the footplate crew.

* as the OP may not be familiar with railway jargon, a BSK was an old-style passenger carriage, one half having four second-class compartments with a corridor, the other half being a guard’s van. Presumably a suitable compartment could be chosen depending whether you wanted to get your head down for an hour or two, join in the regular card school, or enjoy a convivial ‘wee dram’ with like-minded colleagues.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I can’t help with sources, but do recall reading that one feature of some TPO trains was provision of a BSK* next to the Sorting Carriage(s) where the Post Office staff could sit in relative comfort after they’d finished their night’s work.

Do you know which TPO service(s) had this? I'm unaware of a seated carriage allocation in TPO consists.
No written or photographic examples within Peter Johnson's book An Illustrated History of the Travelling Post Office. None of my own TPO train photos have an in-train BSK.

A regular carriage doesn't have the security doors of the Mk1 TPO stock and, I presume, would pose a security/theft risk to Royal Mail's contents.
All the photos and videos I've seen of TPOs in operation, the Royal Mail teams socialised "in-carriage" on the bench-seats (and on the occasional mail sack), cuppa in hand thanks to a sink and water-boiler at the toilet end of the TPO sorting van.

 

[Gloster]

I would presume that as many Postals included standard BG in their consist, any security to prevent unauthorised people walking through would be in the end gangway doors of the postal vehicles themselves. Otherwise there would be nothing to stop somebody getting into a BG, which could be done with a carriage key (if the doors were even locked), and then walking through.

I would think that a BSK would be more likely to appear on the second rank postal services as these would include a lot of parcels, bagged mail, etc. The 01.24 Bristol-Milford Haven used to include Sorting Carriages, Sleepers, Seating Accommodation and a lot of vans, and the 22.52 Waterloo-Weymouth included Sorting Carriages, Seated Accommodation and vans.

BG - Brake Gangway: a coach with passenger no seats, just an empty interior for parcels, but a small compartment for a guard to sit in. They had end gangway doors to allow it to be formed in the centre of the train.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I would presume that as many Postals included standard BG in their consist, any security to prevent unauthorised people walking through would be in the end gangway doors of the postal vehicles themselves. Otherwise there would be nothing to stop somebody getting into a BG, which could be done with a carriage key (if the doors were even locked), and then walking through.

Thanks @Gloster and, re: an unauthorised access, yes that's exactly what I was thinking when I wrote my previous post. I presumed a non-TPO vehicle's gangway would be locked out of use.
I have seen photos and a video looking along the train - one could see RM staff had access to several sorting vans (and, of course, the stowage vans, too).

The early Mk1 NSV/X vehicles had pneumatic twin-leaf door at gangway ends; with an elbow height push button to open.
Later vehicles had the Mk1 standard single leaf sliding door.

 

[Magdalia]

Lots of mail trains had Travelling Post Offices and advertised passenger accommodation, some until at least the early 1980s.

On the East Coast Main Line I recall that these were 2015/2230 Kings Cross-Edinburgh, 2100 Newcastle-Kings Cross and 2020 Edinburgh-Kings Cross.

The Haughley mails Peterborough-Liverpool Street and vice versa had Travelling Post Offices and advertised passenger accommodation until 1980 and continued to have a BSK or BFK for a long while after.

But perhaps the best known examples are the ex Caledonian mail trains 2050 Carlisle-Aberdeen and 1545 Aberdeen-Carstairs, both of which ran as advertised passenger trains for part of the journey, Carlisle-Perth and Dundee-Perth respectively.

 

[Springs Branch]

Do you know which TPO service(s) had this?
- - - - -
A regular carriage doesn't have the security doors of the Mk1 TPO stock and, I presume, would pose a security/theft risk to Royal Mail's contents.

Since posting, I’ve been wracking my brains about where I saw that BSK comment. Even though these days I usually can’t recall what I had for tea last night, I remember it was somewhere on the internet (so must be true!), most likely in a RMWeb thread on a theme of “what carriages should I include in my model Travelling Post Office consist?” I’m pretty sure the specific train in question was an overnight Crewe-Cardiff TPO - so at least one of the secondary services.

Having said that, and trying to dig up the original post, I’ve come across several descriptions of TPO formations and none of those included the elusive BSK. Mainly seemed to be formed of POS (Sorting), POT (Stowage) and good-old BGs.

The idea of sorters relaxing on piles of mailbags and sorting benches sounds compelling and I’ll certainly concede to information in properly researched specialist publications over posts on internet forums.

I know security of the Post Office section was a big deal when the train also conveyed ‘public’ carriages, like, for example, the York-Shrewsbury TPO (RMWeb had a long discussions on non-standard offset gangway connections exclusive to TPO vehicles). But I had rationalised the situation with a ‘PO Sorters Only’ BSK as that coach being marshalled on the opposite side of TPO vehicles to the public carriage(s), and running with all external doors locked.

 

[Gloster]

The Cardiff-Crewe in 1980 had a BSK at the Crewe end, followed by a BCK, a Sorting Coach and a BG; the three rear vehicles were supposed to be ‘gangwayed together’, so presumably the BCK was being used for stowage. The return train was the same, but with a long tail of BG. I would think that here the BCK might be used by sorters, but the BSK would be for the public or staff on duty. My feeling is that the inclusion of BSK in postal trains would have been as much for BR staff on duty as anything else.

BCK - like a BSK, but with both First and Second Class compartments.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I'll veer OT a moment (as is my usual wont!) and here are 3 examples of a seated accommodation within newspapers trains. Martin Loader's excellent website comes up trumps as usual:

47011 Oxford 2 July 1985

47033 Bourton 13 July 1985

47512 Bourton 13 July 1985

The BSK makes sense, as the sole vehicle with guard's area and handwheel; but one photo has an FK in the consist - so I'm assuming the guard travelled in comfort on that train!

 

[DarloRich]

There was a letter box on the outside of most of the TPO carriages and the public could post late letters directly into the train to ensure delivery in London/Glasgow in the morning.

This is correct. I posted some Christmas cards in the side of a TPO at St Pancras station when a student in the early 1990s. By that time first class stamp sufficed

Yes - i recall going to Darlington Station with my father late at night more than once ( well about 2100 but when you are small it seems late!) to post letters directly into the mail train. They were business letters that missed the last post but by going to meet the TPO they could catch up.

I recall the Leyland Royal Mail vans racing up the hill to the station and reversing directly onto the platform to unload the email bags!

 

[Gloster]

I'll veer OT a moment (as is my usual wont!) and here are 3 examples of a seated accommodation within newspapers trains. Martin Loader's excellent website comes up trumps as usual:

47011 Oxford 2 July 1985

47033 Bourton 13 July 1985

47512 Bourton 13 July 1985

The BSK makes sense, as the sole vehicle with guard's area and handwheel; but one photo has an FK in the consist - so I'm assuming the guard travelled in comfort on that train!

All three are basically normal parcels workings, not mail trains, although the timings of the first and third are set up to get the News vans back in good time for the following days’ News workings. News trains were the dedicated trains carrying papers to the provinces, not the empty returns. There might have been some bagged mail and parcels in the vehicles, but they would largely be empty due to the imbalance in traffic. The guard wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) be in the FK as it didn’t have a brake compartment: he should be in one of the BG.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Did the papers and parcels dedicated NCV ("BG") vans retain their guard cabin? I know the NEA/NHA variants did, for use on passenger services.

 

[Gloster]

Did the papers and parcels dedicated NCV ("BG") vans retain their guard cabin? I know the NEA/NHA variants did, for use on passenger services.

The diagrams in Longworth show that they did retain them, but whether this applied to all or some lost their guard’s compartment later I don’t know. This was probably because you had to have at least one guard’s compartment in a train, and the GUVs and siphons never had them, so at least you didn’t have to worry about finding a BG.