Cashless bus services.

[Bletchleyite]

Let's hope visitors to the country also have a good roaming package then, If not a working debit card

If they don't, then a local SIM (e-SIM on newer phones) can be purchased easily. I'd recommend Airalo but there are others.

 

[317 forever]

Manchester is a laggard. They only just introduced tap and cap yesterday and even allow you to buy Hopper fares in cash! Obviously loads of operators outside the UK are cashless.

The problem is not people using cash. The problem is people paying the driver, whether by card or cash. London is still cash friendly because the Oyster card can be topped up at thousands of locations in and around the capital. But smartcards are probably past their sell by date so any new operator going cashless would not bother. London will probably scrap the Oyster card in the not too distant future.

A shortcoming regarding the yellow Bee cards is that we can add 7 or 28 day tickets but not 1 day tickets.

It's a pity we can't do this when we know exactly which 1 day ticket we want, even if they just offer the Bee Bus Day or the Bus & all zones Metrolink day tickets there.

 

[stadler]

Stagecoach have just announced that they are doing a very weird partial cashless trial on two routes in Kent next month:

ServiceUpdatesArticle

www.stagecoachbus.com

Cashless payments only for trial period

24 Mar 2025 to 19 May 2025

From Tuesday 22 April we will be taking part in a UK cashless payment trial for adult single bus fares on routes 12 and 17.

This means all adult single tickets will only be available for purchase by contactless payment on the bus, or on the Stagecoach Bus App. We will be unable to accept cash for adult single tickets on these bus routes during the trial period. The trial is limited to route 12 (Deal, Walmer, Whitfield, Canterbury) and route 17 (Folkestone, Cheriton, Elham Valley, Canterbury).

All other fares will continue to be available with cash payment. The trial will last for four weeks and end on Sunday 18 May.

This trial is designed to assess the impact that going cashless might have on our customers and our business. Many organisations across different sectors are trialling cashless only payment or have implemented a cashless policy. There are no set plans to do so at Stagecoach, but we are interested in finding out more about how people might be affected. The main reason for doing so is to reduce the cost of cash management, but there are also benefits in terms of reducing boarding time and the difficulties around providing change.

We hope you'll understand why we need to test things out in this way. It's very much a learning exercise to help us get a better understanding of the impact this may have.

If you have any comments or suggestions, please let us know.

It is only on two random routes. The 12 from Canterbury to Deal and the 17 from Canterbury to Folkestone are the only routes affected. It lasts from Tuesday the 22nd of April up until Sunday the 18th of May for about four weeks.

But even more odd it is only for Single tickets. You will not be able to pay cash for Single tickets. But they will still accept cash for all other tickets such as a Dayrider ticket or a Discovery ticket etc. So the buses are still taking cash but only for more expensive ticket types. They got rid of Return tickets three months ago so those will not be available at all.

This comes across as an absolute bonkers policy that will cause dozens of arguments with drivers. So if a person only has cash then they will be forced to pay over triple the price of a Single ticket for a Day ticket. The cost of a Single is £3.00 where as it costs £9.50 for a Dayrider ticket or £10.00 for a Discovery ticket. So they are basically punishing people without a contactless card.

Also the choice of routes seems very odd. These are two rural routes between towns that serve lots of small villages and countryside. Stagecoach do not have any Oyster style card like London so cash payers have no alterations. It is completely and utterly bonkers.

 

[johncrossley]

Stagecoach have just announced that they are doing a very weird partial cashless trial on two routes in Kent next month:

ServiceUpdatesArticle

www.stagecoachbus.com

It is only on two random routes. The 12 from Canterbury to Deal and the 17 from Canterbury to Folkestone are the only routes affected. It lasts from Tuesday the 22nd of April up until Sunday the 18th of May for about four weeks.

But even more odd it is only for Single tickets. You will not be able to pay cash for Single tickets. But they will still accept cash for all other tickets such as a Dayrider ticket or a Discovery ticket etc. So the buses are still taking cash but only for more expensive ticket types. They got rid of Return tickets three months ago so those will not be available at all.

This comes across as an absolute bonkers policy that will cause dozens of arguments with drivers. So if a person only has cash then they will be forced to pay over triple the price of a Single ticket for a Day ticket. The cost of a Single is £3.00 where as it costs £9.50 for a Dayrider ticket or £10.00 for a Discovery ticket. So they are basically punishing people without a contactless card.

Also the choice of routes seems very odd. These are two rural routes between towns that serve lots of small villages and countryside. Stagecoach do not have any Oyster style card like London so cash payers have no alterations. It is completely and utterly bonkers.

Stagecoach are missing the point here. As mentioned countless times by many people, the problem is *the driver selling tickets*. It doesn't matter whether the means of payment is cash, bank card or stored value smartcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagecoach are missing the point here. As mentioned countless times by many people, the problem is *the driver selling tickets*. It doesn't matter whether the means of payment is cash, bank card or stored value smartcard.

Bingo. Any such trial should therefore make tap on tap off mandatory, not simply paying by card. Paying by exact change cash is quicker than paying by card in a traditional transaction.

Another example of modern day Stagecoach having lost its way now Souter is out of control.

 

[johncrossley]

This trial is designed to fail so that when people complain about long journey times in the future, they can point to the failure of this trial which meant that they could not reduce boarding times.

 

[Towers]

Of

Bingo. Any such trial should therefore make tap on tap off mandatory, not simply paying by card. Paying by exact change cash is quicker than paying by card in a traditional transaction.

Another example of modern day Stagecoach having lost its way now Souter is out of control.

Of course, unlike their competing major national operators Stagecoach refuse to offer ‘tap on/tap off’ on their buses, which presumably is why they’re now playing at bizarre antics like this!

 

[londonbridge]

The issue is that nowhere outside of London has any Oyster Card equivalent. People using cash in London still have fairly easy access to an Oyster Card for paying with cash. I would say around 99% of Greater London is within short walking distance of a convenience shop that sells and tops up Oyster Cards with cash or a railway station or tube station ticket machine that sells and tops ups Oyster Cards with cash. But nowhere outside of London has anything like this.

In many other cities they do have smartcards but they are mostly for season tickets. Very few are designed for PAYG like the Oyster Card is. Also they are usually only available online. Being able to purchase a card and top up with cash at a convenience shop or ticket machine is very rare anywhere else. So nowhere else really has an Oyster Card equivalent that allows cash users to still travel.

Er, the Nexus Pop card in Tyne And Wear??

 

[johncrossley]

Er, the Nexus Pop card in Tyne And Wear??

That works in a similar way to the West Midlands Swift card. They don't help very much because they can only be used (on buses) to buy paper tickets from the driver. That is no better than paying the driver using contactless or exact fare in cash.

 

[WelshBluebird]

have just found out that First Bristol has seven cash only routes. The routes M1 M2 M3 M3X M4 U1 U2 take contactless only. I think the Bristol Metrobus are off bus ticketing. But it is not clear why the U1 and U2 in Bristol are cashless. On the U3 in Bristol and on the U1 and U2 and U5 in Bath they still appear to accept cash. But you can still use all of these buses as a cash payer if you first purchase a day ticket on any other First Bristol bus routes.

For the metrobus services its not so much they are cashless it's that they are buy before you board services as you say, with the slight addition of tap on tap off too. So you can't buy a regular ticket from the driver with card either. I assume with the university services are probably just trying to improve dwell times at stops and have judged that given the passenger profile on those routes it makes sense to go cashless.

 

[renegademaster]

Stagecoach are missing the point here. As mentioned countless times by many people, the problem is *the driver selling tickets*. It doesn't matter whether the means of payment is cash, bank card or stored value smartcard.

The point isn't to make it convinient to you. It's that the beancounters have noticed how much more the cash processing cost over the card fees and want to save stagecoach some money.

 

[JGurney]

The point isn't to make it convinient to you. It's that the beancounters have noticed how much more the cash processing cost over the card fees and want to save stagecoach some money.

I think by "the problem is *the driver selling tickets*" johncrossly is referring to the delays caused by the driver dealing with issuing tickets (as opposed to passengers tapping or swiping on, or holding passes or tickets which are checked by occasional inspectors), not to the convenience or otherwise of being able to buy from the driver. Compare the time taken at a stop by a driver issuing tickets to several people boarding a bus here with the time taken at stops in many European cities where the bus or tram driver does not check tickets and so passengers enter through all the doors and the vehicle moves off once all are on board. That system is certainly faster, but it relies upon a level of honesty which seems sadly lacking here, and upon the availability of infrastructure for buying tickets before travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think by "the problem is *the driver selling tickets*" johncrossly is referring to the delays caused by the driver dealing with issuing tickets (as opposed to passengers tapping or swiping on, or holding passes or tickets which are checked by occasional inspectors), not to the convenience or otherwise of being able to buy from the driver. Compare the time taken at a stop by a driver issuing tickets to several people boarding a bus here with the time taken at stops in many European cities where the bus or tram driver does not check tickets and so passengers enter through all the doors and the vehicle moves off once all are on board. That system is certainly faster, but it relies upon a level of honesty which seems sadly lacking here, and upon the availability of infrastructure for buying tickets before travel.

From observation in London, "tap on tap off" is almost as quick as open boarding (you're talking a couple of seconds difference per stop at average loadings). It thus seems very odd that Stagecoach aren't incorporating that into the trial, perhaps mandating it unless purchasing for more than one person.

 

[renegademaster]

I think by "the problem is *the driver selling tickets*" johncrossly is referring to the delays caused by the driver dealing with issuing tickets (as opposed to passengers tapping or swiping on, or holding passes or tickets which are checked by occasional inspectors), not to the convenience or otherwise of being able to buy from the driver. Compare the time taken at a stop by a driver issuing tickets to several people boarding a bus here with the time taken at stops in many European cities where the bus or tram driver does not check tickets and so passengers enter through all the doors and the vehicle moves off once all are on board. That system is certainly faster, but it relies upon a level of honesty which seems sadly lacking here, and upon the availability of infrastructure for buying tickets before travel.

I understand, but I don't think stagecoach are approaching it with a view to reduce dwell times but just to reduce the amount they spend processing cash. Starting with singles is probably a way to test the waters in finding out if the amount lost from people who refuse to use contactless is less than the amount it costs to process cash, while still giving unbanked people a way to travel if they still really have to(for a premium) .

 

[Edvid]

From observation in London, "tap on tap off" is almost as quick as open boarding

I assume you meant just "tap on", certain London Service Permit routes aside. The Nottingham City Transport "tap on" system (they use INIT instead of Ticketer) is a great example of this as well.

It thus seems very odd that Stagecoach aren't incorporating that into the trial

Awaiting further progress with Project Coral, perhaps?

 

[Simon75]

Hasn't there been cases of card/phone payments refused due to fraud?

 

[johncrossley]

I understand, but I don't think stagecoach are approaching it with a view to reduce dwell times but just to reduce the amount they spend processing cash. Starting with singles is probably a way to test the waters in finding out if the amount lost from people who refuse to use contactless is less than the amount it costs to process cash, while still giving unbanked people a way to travel if they still really have to(for a premium) .

This clearly shows contempt for their passengers, as they could just as easily try and improve dwell times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This clearly shows contempt for their passengers, as they could just as easily try and improve dwell times.

Tap on tap off gives the biggest dwell time improvement of any measure I have ever seen. It makes buses move very nearly as fast as conductor operation. A dual door London bus now moves faster than a typical Routemaster did (the dual door providing the balance of the improvement).

Buses moving faster is a very good thing for everyone. For passengers, the service is quicker. For the operator, they don't need as many vehicles and drivers to operate the service or can have longer layovers for a more punctual operation (or a bit of both) plus the service is better so easier to market. There are few disadvantages.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2025 ==

The amount of people who don't have a bank card and are not eligible for a disabled/elderly bus pass must be in single digits. It's a good idea, from a business perspective as it minimizes driver assault, theft, and the logistical annoyances of carrying around a cash float on every bus. Those without a bank account should move into the 21st century.

If they move to tap on tap off, you also get a speed-up and thus reduced peak vehicle requirement.

To deal with those few, it would be good to do a deal with a prepaid card company to offer a public transport branded prepaid Mastercard or Visa card loadable at post offices and PayPoints/PayZones (which would basically mean near enough every convenience store in the country) using cash. This would replace Oyster but without all the complexity of Stagecoach needing to manage its own card scheme (or the need to have different cards for different operators). This makes it easier for the disabled people and kids being discussed, too - the carer would just load plenty onto the card for the likely journeys they would make and so they don't need to worry about what they are spending or find correct change, just tap on and off each time.

It appears that Cape Town's MyCiti network has sort of gone down this line - their smart card is a contactless Mastercard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2025 ==

Even so, I would assume the amount of children travelling solo must be very low. You can open a bank account and get a debit card at about 12-13 these days.

Anyone younger than that will likely have a prepaid school bus ticket, or be travelling with a parent/guardian who will pay with his/her contactless card.

GoHenry's (a prepaid debit card) minimum age is 6.

There aren't going to be many (any?) 6 year olds travelling alone in 2025. If they could get that down to 5 or get bus companies to up the age at which travel is free to the 6th birthday, that means every passenger is eligible for a suitable contactless card or travels free.

There are upsides of everyone having a card - if one person is paying for multiple people, you can't do tap on tap off and so you lose the speed gain - paying for a traditional ticket by card is slightly slower than exact change cash. So it's better if, like London, every passenger is required to have their own card of whatever kind (be that one to pay with or one evidencing free travel).

 

[stevieinselby]

I assume you meant just "tap on", certain London Service Permit routes aside. The Nottingham City Transport "tap on" system (they use INIT instead of Ticketer) is a great example of this as well.

Tap-on is fine where you have a flat-fare system or you're going to the end of the line – but if you are making a shorter journey where the fare is lower than the maximum then you need to tap-off as well. With the current fares caps, that is not generally the case, but if we go back up to full commercial fares next year then – especially on longer routes – passengers would be well-advised to get into the habit of tapping off as well.

 

[Haywain]

as they could just as easily try and improve dwell times.

Without changing how people pay, that's very difficult. It amazes me how long it takes to deal with a queue of people buying tickets, even with a flat fare in place. And, to be clear, I see no real difference between paying cash and paying by card.

 

[renegademaster]

There must be way of making the user interface more efficient that selling 3 day riders doesn't take 2 minutes

 

[Bletchleyite]

Without changing how people pay, that's very difficult. It amazes me how long it takes to deal with a queue of people buying tickets, even with a flat fare in place. And, to be clear, I see no real difference between paying cash and paying by card.

For traditional sales, card is slightly slower than exact change cash but slightly quicker than giving change, in my observation. TOTO is the holy grail, it's almost as fast as conductor operation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2025 ==

There must be way of making the user interface more efficient that selling 3 day riders doesn't take 2 minutes

There is - capped TOTO.

"Hello, drive, can I have 3 day tickets please" takes about 10 seconds to say, then another 5-10 to set up the machine and tap the payment card (or give change for cash). Multiply that by the number of passengers and the problem amounts up. Most people don't even break stride when tapping on in London so boarding is almost as quick as with conductor operation.

Cash can be done quickly using fareboxes and exact fare only, particularly if you have the ticket issuing device past the driver so you take your ticket as someone else is depositing their cash (was it Lothian that mounted the ticket printer by the stairs?). But it's an outmoded solution and requires far more kit and far more faff than card, and is also less friendly if you've only got a tenner.

 

[johncrossley]

Without changing how people pay, that's very difficult. It amazes me how long it takes to deal with a queue of people buying tickets, even with a flat fare in place. And, to be clear, I see no real difference between paying cash and paying by card.

What I mean is, they could have put the effort into introducing tap in tap out or more low tech off bus ticket types that have been possible for 50 years. That would mean fewer people paying the driver even if cash payment is still allowed. That is a no brainer, a strategy adopted by many operators already, such as most First and Go Ahead operators, yet Stagecoach have blatantly ignored that.

 

[renegademaster]

Mandatory TOTO off stops you from being able to offer groupsave tickets.
While it doesn't matter so much in London where it's £1.75, now the fares have gone up to £3 it only takes 2 people to make a taxi cheaper for a shortish hops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mandatory TOTO off stops you from being able to offer groupsave tickets.

Best way to do the equivalent of that for families is to say that each adult can take, say, two or even four under 18s for free.

It does mean you can't do such tickets for groups of adults, but as most groups of adults will go by car or taxi anyway (the latter are good value if you fill them up, often cheaper than bus fares) I think that's acceptable collateral damage for the massive benefits of speeding boarding many-fold.

A completely full car or taxi is a road-space and environmentally efficient mode of transport, particularly if it's an EV. There are no sensible grounds at all to discourage travel by car where the car is full or close to full. It's single and dual occupancy cars you really want to discourage.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Mandatory TOTO off stops you from being able to offer groupsave tickets.
While it doesn't matter so much in London where it's £1.75, now the fares have gone up to £3 it only takes 2 people to make a taxi cheaper for a shortish hops.

Not entirely. It would stop you from selling them on-bus, but it wouldn't prevent you from offering them as some sort of e-ticket

 

[PeterC]

Mandatory TOTO off stops you from being able to offer groupsave tickets.

Not with an app.

 

[Richardr]

Presumably you don't need mandatory tap off if you have a maximum single fare such as the £3. It is only those paying who want a lower fare or something more complex who need tap out. The rest are all charged £3.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably you don't need mandatory tap off if you have a maximum single fare such as the £3. It is only those paying who want a lower fare or something more complex who need tap out. The rest are all charged £3.

With buses, if someone doesn't tap on but taps off or doesn't tap off but taps on it makes sense just to charge them from the start/to the end of the route accordingly. Keeps it simple, and indeed means people leaving at the terminus (or who knows their fare is the maximum) don't need to tap off. No need to have complexity like unresolved journeys with buses because the worst you could have done is ride the full route.

 

[markymark2000]

The Nottingham City Transport "tap on" system (they use INIT instead of Ticketer) is a great example of this as well.

How does NCT cope with the outer fares? I've used the tap on machines on National Express West Mids and found it to be quite quick and easy, even when asking for short hop fares but their fare structure is simper than NCT.

Tap on tap off gives the biggest dwell time improvement of any measure I have ever seen.

Tap on I agree.
Tap on tap off I disagree. I've seen it cause longer dwell times, especially if it's only for passengers alighting. The time it takes people to faff around finding their card, tapping off and waiting for the beep, then getting off. It does add more to the dwell time and generally negates the time savings.
Also to consider, people buying day/weekly paper tickets on bus, while there is a longer dwell at initial purchase, on all subsequent journeys it's quicker than tap on and substantially faster than tap on tap off.

It's far from the 'biggest dwell time improvement'. That in my opinion comes from some areas improving bus stop infrastructure with longer bus stop clearways and reducing bus stop lay-bys.


Where it's a standard fare or using a much simpler fare system such as National Express West Midlands or Arriva Merseyside, tap on (no tap off) is really good and I agree with you it does help dwell time.