Penalty notice issued help needed

[jaydenma]

Hi all I need some advice/ help

I was travelling back from york after visiting a friend at uni and the ticket i bought was bought for the wrong date but I went to the ticket office in York and was told that the ticket that I had whould be able to be used to travel with but to speak to the staff on board and they will be able to issue you with a ticket to travel.

Once on board I spoke to a member of the train crew and they provided the ticket at no cost.

I was then told that a photo of my driving licence was needed to betaken and was told a letter whould be sent to my home adress about what whould be happening as a result but at no point was I offered to pay for a ticket or pay for the distance to the next station stop but was assured by the member of staff that the ticket whould remain free and not to worry and enjoy my travel.

But then 3 weeks later I have received a letter informing me that I have a fine to pay or challenge of £311 what can I do in my situation to resolve the issue as I belive I wasn't given fair opportunity and treatment to pay for the ticket due to the fact that a ticket was issued for no charge.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all I need some advice/ help

I was travelling back from york after visiting a friend at uni and the ticket i bought was bought for the wrong date but I went to the ticket office in York and was told that the ticket that I had whould be able to be used to travel with but to speak to the staff on board and they will be able to issue you with a ticket to travel.

Once on board I spoke to a member of the train crew and they provided the ticket at no cost.

I was then told that a photo of my driving licence was needed to betaken and was told a letter whould be sent to my home adress about what whould be happening as a result but at no point was I offered to pay for a ticket or pay for the distance to the next station stop but was assured by the member of staff that the ticket whould remain free and not to worry and enjoy my travel.

But then 3 weeks later I have received a letter informing me that I have a fine to pay or challenge of £311 what can I do in my situation to resolve the issue as I belive I wasn't given fair opportunity and treatment to pay for the ticket due to the fact that a ticket was issued for no charge.

Hi. You will need to upload a copy of this letter with your personal details removed.

A copy of your original ticket and a copy of the ticket given to you on this train would also help.

Also do you know the time and date of the train in question? And the company that operated it (which I assume is the same company that has written to you).

 

[jaydenma]

Hi. You will need to upload a copy of this letter with your personal details removed.

A copy of your original ticket and a copy of the ticket given to you on this train would also help.

Also do you know the time and date of the train in question? And the company that operated it (which I assume is the same company that has written to you).

Hi there thanks for the response
Please find actched the letter.

the train company was cross country and the train was from york to taunton on Sunday the 2nd of March

 

[azOOOOOma]

I can’t understand why staff at an LNER would say that it is ok to travel when that is not even the policy on their own company. That’s a hefty amount of money to have to pay. I hope this gets resolved.

 

[jaydenma]

I'm not sure either i think it may be due to manny trains being cancelled and the ticket office being extremely busy but non the less that was the advice I was given at the time could I request cctv footage from the station (but is this possible due to gdpr?)

 

[AlterEgo]

Exactly what ticket did you have? Was it an Advance, Off Peak, Anytime? Were you travelling on a return portion or an outward?

 

[jaydenma]

I had an advance single, as part of a return journey

 

[azOOOOOma]

I'm not sure either i think it may be due to manny trains being cancelled and the ticket office being extremely busy but non the less that was the advice I was given at the time could I request cctv footage from the station (but is this possible due to gdpr?)

Not sure. I’d imagine it’s reserved only for crime or safety related incidents. Besides, it may not have recorded audio.

 

[jaydenma]

Is it worth trying to get to at least show i whent to the ticket office before traveling ?

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s absolutely baffling why or how a member of staff would tell you this would be fine. It’s not a valid ticket. Are you absolutely certain they said this? Did they specifically say the staff on board would issue you with a ticket for no cost? Did the booking office staff tell you that your ticket wasn’t valid, and did they invite you to buy a new one?

 

[azOOOOOma]

It may be worth asking the question.

Does anyone know if LNER station ticket offices can amend Advances for other operators in the ticket office or can they only amend them for their own services?

 

[jaydenma]

It’s absolutely baffling why or how a member of staff would tell you this would be fine. It’s not a valid ticket. Are you absolutely certain they said this? Did they specifically say the staff on board would issue you with a ticket for no cost? Did the booking office staff tell you that your ticket wasn’t valid, and did they invite you to buy a new one?

I am certain that they said I was able to travel with my ticket and that I was to speak to staff on board.
At no point in the ticket office or on the train offered to pay the price for a new ticket I was just issued a ticket on the train at no cost.

 

[furlong]

What happened to the ticket you did have?
Was it paper? If so, was it marked in any way by the inspector?
If it was digital was it scanned? If so, you need to find out any annotation made against it.
How much wrong was the date? Future or past? How many days?
Were you travelling at exactly the same time as on the ticket?
What was the price of this ticket?

 

[jaydenma]

What happened to the ticket you did have?
Was it paper? If so, was it marked in any way by the inspector?
If it was digital was it scanned? If so, you need to find out any annotation made against it.
How much wrong was the date? Future or past? How many days?
Were you travelling at exactly the same time as on the ticket?
What was the price of this ticket?

Hi there thanks for the response
I still have the original ticket (papper) it wasnt marked by the inspector in any way but it was one day out of date (the day before the day I traveled) and the time was the same time as on my ticket and the price was £57.90

 

[Hadders]

Was there any major disruption on Saturday 1st March causing there to be ticket acceptance in place for the following day? Disruption might not have affected the CrossCOuntry route from York to Taunton but the ticket clerk might've thought the OP was travelling via London etc.

Not sure. I’d imagine it’s reserved only for crime or safety related incidents. Besides, it may not have recorded audio.

I expect there will be CCTV covering the ticket office where the footage is routinely kept for 31 days. If they were very quick @jaydenma could submit a subject access request to LNER but while this would show they visited the ticket office I doubt it will be helpful as audio is highly unlikely to be recorded.

It may be worth asking the question.

Does anyone know if LNER station ticket offices can amend Advances for other operators in the ticket office or can they only amend them for their own services?

A ticket office can amend an Advance purchased elsewhere (subject to competent staff being available...) but any amendment has to be done before the departure time kisted on the ticket. As the ticket was dated 1st March it would not be possible to amend it the 2nd.

 

[WesternLancer]

Is it worth trying to get to at least show i whent to the ticket office before traveling ?

I suspect cctv will be if little help even if it hasn’t been deleted by now. But no harm in asking for it.

 

[Haywain]

they said I was able to travel with my ticket and that I was to speak to staff on board.

These things are actually contradicting each other. There would be no need to speak to the guard if your ticket had been valid. Did you speak to the guard before boarding the train, or after it had left York?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I still have the original ticket (papper) it wasnt marked by the inspector in any way but it was one day out of date (the day before the day I traveled) and the time was the same time as on my ticket and the price was £57.90

That looks to have been the price of a booked train only Standard Class Advance Single from York to Taunton, route "XC only" for travel on 01MAR2025, so just before the latest fares revision. Looks like XC are now asking for the price of an undiscounted Anytime Day Single, route "not via London", which is £211.40, plus a £100.00 admin fee, as travel was a day late, on 02MAR2025, and so the Advance Single would no longer be valid, absence any disruption, cancellations, etc., the day before.

Can't see that there was any disruption.

Link below shows (inter alia) all XC train services departing York (YRK) and arriving Taunton (TAU) on 01MAR2025.

Search - Recent Train Times

 

[AlterEgo]

These things are actually contradicting each other. There would be no need to speak to the guard if your ticket had been valid. Did you speak to the guard before boarding the train, or after it had left York?

This sounds more like a case of:

Passenger has an invalid ticket > checks options with booking office > on the day price is too expensive > can't pay > asks for options > well you can board and speak to the guard, they will give you a zero fare ticket and take your details to pay later

It's almost incomprehensible that a member of staff would describe the TIR process but also say the ticket was valid. The whole reason the OP went to the ticket office is that they knew their ticket was not valid and it would have formed the whole basis of the discussion, surely?

 

[jaydenma]

This sounds more like a case of:

Passenger has an invalid ticket > checks options with booking office > on the day price is too expensive > can't pay > asks for options > well you can board and speak to the guard, they will give you a zero fare ticket and take your details to pay later

It's almost incomprehensible that a member of staff would describe the TIR process but also say the ticket was valid. The whole reason the OP went to the ticket office is that they knew their ticket was not valid and it would have formed the whole basis of the discussion, surely?

Hi there thanks for your support

This isn't the case as I whould of paid the fair on the train if offered or at least to the next stop where I whould of purchase a ticket on train line ect.

I can understand how it looks like I tried to avoid the cost of a ticket but I truly just booked the wrong date and whent to the ticket office when I noticed the issue and when I was on the train issued a free ticket with no mention of a fine or prosecution so therfore belive I wasn't treated fairly as i wasn't told about any potential penalties.

Do I have a case for appeal and if I loes the appeal do I still have the opportunity to pay


Any help whould be really appreciated

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi there thanks for your support

This isn't the case as I whould of paid the fair on the train if offered or at least to the next stop where I whould of purchase a ticket on train line ect.

I can understand how it looks like I tried to avoid the cost of a ticket but I truly just booked the wrong date and whent to the ticket office when I noticed the issue and when I was on the train issued a free ticket with no mention of a fine or prosecution so therfore belive I wasn't treated fairly as i wasn't told about any potential penalties.

Do I have a case for appeal and if I loes the appeal do I still have the opportunity to pay


Any help whould be really appreciated

There is no formal appeal process for this, so you can try to write a letter to the company explaining what has happened. I do think it is very unlikely the company will agree that there is no fare to pay; you had no valid ticket, and the fare remains due. The fare being charged is likely not in fact the fare you would have been charged on the train, though, so you could ask they reduce the fare element rate to £129.20 (The Super Off Peak Single).

 

[Haywain]

Passenger has an invalid ticket > checks options with booking office > on the day price is too expensive > can't pay > asks for options > well you can board and speak to the guard, they will give you a zero fare ticket and take your details to pay later

I don't think a member of staff at the station would go further than saying "you can speak to the guard". They wouldn't suggest boarding first, or talk about zero fare tickets and paying later.

when I was on the train issued a free ticket with no mention of a fine or prosecution so therfore belive I wasn't treated fairly as i wasn't told about any potential penalties.

The free ticket is to allow you to complete the journey after your details have been taken.

 

[jaydenma]

There is no formal appeal process for this, so you can try to write a letter to the company explaining what has happened. I do think it is very unlikely the company will agree that there is no fare to pay; you had no valid ticket, and the fare remains due. The fare being charged is likely not in fact the fare you would have been charged on the train, though, so you could ask they reduce the fare element rate to £129.20 (The Super Off Peak Single).

Thanks again for your response

within my letter how whould I write a polite message where I accept responsibility but still tell my part of being told I was told to board the train and speak to a member of train crew is it worth also mentioning That there was no intent to commit fraud as a ticket was bought and not used for the intended day and for then to consider a reduced fare rate to match the super off peak rate of 129.20

Any help whould be appreciated

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi there thanks for your support

This isn't the case as I whould of paid the fair on the train if offered or at least to the next stop where I whould of purchase a ticket on train line ect.

I can understand how it looks like I tried to avoid the cost of a ticket but I truly just booked the wrong date and whent to the ticket office when I noticed the issue and when I was on the train issued a free ticket with no mention of a fine or prosecution so therfore belive I wasn't treated fairly as i wasn't told about any potential penalties.

Do I have a case for appeal and if I loes the appeal do I still have the opportunity to pay


Any help whould be really appreciated

If you had been clearly advised at the ticket office the official process should have been to offer you the cheapest 'walk up and buy' ticket for the time of day you were travelling (or to advice you of when that time was) - ie the Super Off Peak ticket. Alternatively they perhaps might have thought it worth saying along the lines of, 'well show your ticket to the guard before you get on (and it is the 'before you get' on that would be vital) and ask if they are prepared to accept the ticket'.

Even if you had got off the train at the next stop and bought a new ticket for the next train I doubt there would have been anything cheaper than a Super Off Peak fare.

But there is never going to be a transcript of the discussion verbatim anyway - and that's the problem as you can't prove something that I suspect the investigating office probably won't believe happened in the ticket office.

Given the circumstances, and that you are firm in your understanding of what you think you were told - I think your options are

a) - pay the sum demanded in full
b) - refuse to pay, but they will just escalate it to prosecution (there is no formal right of appeal) - even if there was no clear explanation of what was happening the business involving taking your address and ID was either to send you an Unpaid Fare Notice or to commence enforcement proceedings
or
c) write politely to them setting out clearly what happened from your point of view, (as you have done here),
- say that you firmly believed you have been given permission to travel by staff on board, who you had sought out promptly after boarding,
- that you had no intention to evade a fare,
- that you had the wrong ticket for the day as a result of an error in booking,
- point out you had already paid £x for travel for the ticket,
- ask if they would allow you to pay the ticket you would otherwise have bought at the ticket office had yuo been clearly advised to do so (a Super Off Peak Single) and kindly consider taking into account the sum paid for the ticket you did hold.

I'd do (C) - they are not obliged to do that but just maybe they will be kind enough to do it.

The tone needs to be more pleading than demanding.

I can't see you have anything to loose by asking

It Would be a good idea to post a draft of whatever you want to reply with here first so people can check your wording generally and the 'railway language' in particular

You have my sympathy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2025 ==

Thanks again for your response

within my letter how whould I write a polite message where I accept responsibility but still tell my part of being told I was told to board the train and speak to a member of train crew is it worth also mentioning That there was no intent to commit fraud as a ticket was bought and not used for the intended day and for then to consider a reduced fare rate to match the super off peak rate of 129.20

Any help whould be appreciated

just seen this - hope my suggested points in post #24 help you with a first draft (try to aim for Super Off Peak minus what you had already paid)

 

[jaydenma]

If you had been clearly advised at the ticket office the official process should have been to offer you the cheapest 'walk up and buy' ticket for the time of day you were travelling (or to advice you of when that time was) - ie the Super Off Peak ticket. Alternatively they perhaps might have thought it worth saying along the lines of, 'well show your ticket to the guard before you get on (and it is the 'before you get' on that would be vital) and ask if they are prepared to accept the ticket'.

Even if you had got off the train at the next stop and bought a new ticket for the next train I doubt there would have been anything cheaper than a Super Off Peak fare.

But there is never going to be a transcript of the discussion verbatim anyway - and that's the problem as you can't prove something that I suspect the investigating office probably won't believe happened in the ticket office.

Given the circumstances, and that you are firm in your understanding of what you think you were told - I think your options are

a) - pay the sum demanded in full
b) - refuse to pay, but they will just escalate it to prosecution (there is no formal right of appeal) - even if there was no clear explanation of what was happening the business involving taking your address and ID was either to send you an Unpaid Fare Notice or to commence enforcement proceedings
or
c) write politely to them setting out clearly what happened from your point of view, (as you have done here),
- say that you firmly believed you have been given permission to travel by staff on board, who you had sought out promptly after boarding,
- that you had no intention to evade a fare,
- that you had the wrong ticket for the day as a result of an error in booking,
- point out you had already paid £x for travel for the ticket,
- ask if they would allow you to pay the ticket you would otherwise have bought at the ticket office had yuo been clearly advised to do so (a Super Off Peak Single) and kindly consider taking into account the sum paid for the ticket you did hold.

I'd do (C) - they are not obliged to do that but just maybe they will be kind enough to do it.

The tone needs to be more pleading than demanding.

I can't see you have anything to loose by asking

It Would be a good idea to post a draft of whatever you want to reply with here first so people can check your wording generally and the 'railway language' in particular

You have my sympathy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2025 ==


just seen this - hope my suggested points in post #24 help you with a first draft (try to aim for Super Off Peak minus what you had already paid)

Thanks for your reply

If i do go ahead with option c do i wave my right to pay the fine and prevent prosecution

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your reply

If i do go ahead with option c do i wave my right to pay the fine and prevent prosecution

A good question so you may want to weigh up answers to it before you chose your course of action.

To your question here I believe the answer is no - ie you could be prosecuted and fined in court

But at this stage you are not being given a fine as I understand it.

You are being asked to pay the full price for a new ticket (£211.40 fare) plus £100 for their admin over all this. This is an Out of Court settlement offer (and a fairly standard formula that railway companies use) - ie "if you pay this sum we will not prosecute you in court for boarding the train without a valid ticket".

I believe the Railway company can withdraw their offer here at any time, and move to prosecution. So this is a risk you need to weigh up. But they do have incentives in settling rather than going to court (basically the railway company keeps the settlement payment, but if it goes to court the court gets the fine). If it did go to court IMHO you would be found guilty of boarding a train without a valid ticket - which you did - and you have no proof you were given any permission or advice by a member of railway staff to do this that you could show to the Magistrates. It all rather hinges on what was said to you on board the train, but you can not proove it - I suspect it's probably a case of one of those conversations where two people are speaking the same language but come away with totally different understandings of what was being said...ie you think you are being given permission to travel at no extra cost, the staff believe they are taking your details for the back office to decide what to do about it (which is inevitably that the back office - a contractor - charge you as mush as they can I'm afraid)

The outcome from the court guilty verdict would cost more than this 'out of court settlement offer' in the letter as I think it would include the ticket costs here plus the court fine (and a criminal record of course). All my instincts say 'avoid court'.

However, they are inviting you to respond with mitigation - so it's reasonable to reply with your story and request in my view.

An added problem is you are dealing with ITAL, who are a contractor for Cross Country Trains, not dealing with Cross Country Trains directly. I doubt ITAL have much incentive to consider the 'customer service' aspects of this in terms of your future views on train travel with Cross Country - they won't care about that.

If you have a little bit of time before responding do wait and see what others on the forum think you should do.

 

[jaydenma]

Thanks again for your reply If will check with others in the subreddit and weigh up my options as a primal record whould ruin my career do you know if there is anyone I can speak to / phone to discuss

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks again for your reply If will check with others in the subreddit and weigh up my options as a primal record whould ruin my career do you know if there is anyone I can speak to / phone to discuss

For the fares issue you will simply not find anywhere with more expert knowledge than is on this forum.

For discussing about impact of a prosecution and guilty verdict / criminal record for this on your career (is that what you mean?) then you could contact your trade union if you are a member, or a professional body if you are a member of one associated with your job / career.

There is a charity called 'Unlock' that provides information on the impact of criminal records - you could look at their website / contact them.

I very much suspect if you tried to appeal to the railway company / ITALs better nature on this as a response to their invitation to tell them of any mitigating circumstances (i.e. my suggested course of action in (c) above), they could say no in reply if they do not agree to your request, and you would still have a last chance to pay what they are demanding before it went to court prosecution.

I'd welcome other experts views on this of course.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Was there any major disruption on Saturday 1st March causing there to be ticket acceptance in place for the following day? Disruption might not have affected the CrossCOuntry route from York to Taunton but the ticket clerk might've thought the OP was travelling via London etc.


I expect there will be CCTV covering the ticket office where the footage is routinely kept for 31 days. If they were very quick @jaydenma could submit a subject access request to LNER but while this would show they visited the ticket office I doubt it will be helpful as audio is highly unlikely to be recorded.


A ticket office can amend an Advance purchased elsewhere (subject to competent staff being available...) but any amendment has to be done before the departure time kisted on the ticket. As the ticket was dated 1st March it would not be possible to amend it the 2nd.

Thanks I didn’t know that they could amend Advances for other TOCs and sellers.

 

[island]

This sounds more like a case of:

Passenger has an invalid ticket > checks options with booking office > on the day price is too expensive > can't pay > asks for options > well you can board and speak to the guard, they will give you a zero fare ticket and take your details to pay later

Or "well you can go and speak to the guard, they might use discretion to allow you to travel with this ticket".

I do not make any accusations of dishonesty, but I do however observe that in times of stress there can be an element of people "hearing what they want to hear" or focusing on the positive aspects and neglecting to consider or mention the provisos or the rest of what they are told.

In any event, I think it is unlikely that the ticket office will have granted permission to travel without any strings attached, and yet more unlikely that should the case progress to court, the defendant will be able to prove same.

c) write politely to them setting out clearly what happened from your point of view, (as you have done here),
- say that you firmly believed you have been given permission to travel by staff on board, who you had sought out promptly after boarding,
- that you had no intention to evade a fare,
- that you had the wrong ticket for the day as a result of an error in booking,
- point out you had already paid £x for travel for the ticket,
- ask if they would allow you to pay the ticket you would otherwise have bought at the ticket office had yuo been clearly advised to do so (a Super Off Peak Single) and kindly consider taking into account the sum paid for the ticket you did hold.

I'd do (C) - they are not obliged to do that but just maybe they will be kind enough to do it.

If so inclined, one could also send two cheques, one for the "amount you feel would be appropriate" and the other for the balance of the £311.40 demanded, asking that they only bank the former.

None of this is however without risk – the TOC could then withdraw the settlement and proceed to court.