E-bikes to be banned

[Bletchleyite]

And these same people are going to tell what's an ebike and what isn't are they? They're going to be able to tell with a quick glance if this is an ebike or not?

A small number of e-bikes such as the one pictured, some by Ribble Cycles and VanMoof have the battery hidden in the frame and look like normal bikes. However these aren't the cheap tat, because making custom batteries to fit inside a frame tube is expensive. Thus, the above pictured bike might well sneak through but poses no real threat.

Though to be fair the obvious way to tell with the one pictured is the motor by the pedals.

 

[Mawkie]

Are the unions running TfL now? Sorry, I must have missed that announcement. So now TfL management have made it known that they will allow themselves to be bulled into implementing unfair and illogical restrictions on pax. Sorry, I've supported other disputes, but on this they are just wrong.

You need to read the room. Every professional organisation involved in this issue is saying the same thing.

Feel free to write to London Fire Brigade as well as everyone else on your list to protest about the ban as the LFB published their overwhelming support today on their website.

Transport for London (TfL) has announced that all non-folding e-bikes will be banned on parts of the London’s transport network from 31 March to ensure the safety of customers and staff.
Responding to this announcement, London Fire Brigade Deputy Commissioner for Prevention, Protection & Policy, Charlie Pugsley, said: "We welcome this move by Transport for London following their detailed safety review, as it acknowledges the risks that we know e-bike batteries can pose.
"While we recognise the sustainable benefits e-bikes, and micro mobility generally, bring to our city, the reality is that across London we have been seeing an e-bike or e-scooter fire every other day, on average, and we have particular concern about the risk posed by conversion kits or modified e-bikes. When these fires occur, they can be sudden, incredibly ferocious and produce smoke that is extremely toxic.
"As part of London Fire Brigade's #ChargeSafe campaign, we have been raising awareness about the fire risks and educating Londoners on how they can store and charge their e-bikes safely. We are also working closely with the Government to improve the regulation around e-bikes and e-scooters. We hope this will reduce the risk of consumers being exposed to products like batteries and chargers that are more likely to malfunction because of the way they have been built, especially if they have been brought from an online market place or auction site where products may not meet safety standards.”

 

[Egg Centric]

I'm not sure it is. The majority of e-bikes I've seen on TfL services are these dodgy ones used by food couriers. You almost never see proper ones, which look very different in most cases (though there do exist proper ones with the big wheels).

The majority of them haven't gone up in flames, but I guess all of the cheapo ones pose the same theoretical risk of so doing.

Right, but consider that most "legit" e-bike users would not be using TfL services very often (bike hire schemes or just... cycling... would be more sensible for most commutes). Whereas the courier nuisances are presumably using them daily (because they've run out of battery maybe? I'm not sure). So although I don't know this I'm pretty sure that the majority of e-bike using passengers will be legit even if the majority of journies aren't.

 

[Non Multi]

I have zero issues with banning all bikes, should you carry on with the same whinge, either.

So that's your agenda after all. Any e-bike riders feeling aggrieved should simply boycott the Tube and all other TfL services.

What'll end up happening is clueless gateline staff stopping anyone with what may look like an e-bike when it just has a boxy frame.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

You need to read the room. Every professional organisation involved in this issue is saying the same thing.

Feel free to write to London Fire Brigade as well as everyone else on your list to protest about the ban as the LFB published their overwhelming support today on their website.

The LFB "overwhelming support" actually says "we have particular concern about the risk posed by conversion kits or modified e-bikes". I doubt they'd be worried at all if most bikes met UK/EU safety standards. A wider crackdown on the dangerous modified/non-compliant bikes is needed; they're a fire risk everywhere, including in people's homes.

 

[Egg Centric]

You need to read the room. Every professional organisation involved in this issue is saying the same thing.

Professional organisations / legislators / civil servants / whatever almost never consider the slow erosion of freedom in how they evaluate their rules. Which is fair enough, they're not incentivised to. Heck the British public from whom they are drawn loves a good ban of things. And so I agree that "reading the room" politically this is doomed, but it's a shame. A self-funding licensing scheme along with robust enforcement of those breaking it could have been considered instead, for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Right, but consider that most "legit" e-bike users would not be using TfL services very often (bike hire schemes or just... cycling... would be more sensible for most commutes). Whereas the courier nuisances are presumably using them daily (because they've run out of battery maybe? I'm not sure). So although I don't know this I'm pretty sure that the majority of e-bike using passengers will be legit even if the majority of journies aren't.

With TfL services being quite slow, I suspect the majority of legit e-bike users would just use them for recovery or if it's tipping down. Which is quite different from the mainline where you see far more legit bikes and far fewer dodgy ones.

 

[Egg Centric]

With TfL services being quite slow, I suspect the majority of legit e-bike users would just use them for recovery or if it's tipping down. Which is quite different from the mainline where you see far more legit bikes and far fewer dodgy ones.

Yes, I agree - as I said I used it exactly once and it was partly to "do it". But that's kind of my point - if legit e-bike users use them rarely (but a non zero number of times) then even if the majority of journeys are illegit the majority of users affected are legit.

 

[Mojo]

With TfL services being quite slow, I suspect the majority of legit e-bike users would just use them for recovery or if it's tipping down. Which is quite different from the mainline where you see far more legit bikes and far fewer dodgy ones.

On a weekday evening from about 2030 - 2200 you will see numerous bikes on Northbound Met line trains, usually from The City or Euston Square, and they tend to alight at stations between Preston Rd and Rayners Lane. Every single train will have between 2 and 4 bikes at the front and the same number at the back, they place them blocking the doorways and aisles at the first and last set of doors. They are all food delivery cycles. I’d love to understand where they are going to / from and why they always travel at the same time of day.

 

[Class 317]

Any electrical product containing a battery that meets quality standards including an ebike should be very low risk on public transport.

What is really needed to reduce the fire risk is national legislation to control the illegal conversions and selling of ebikes that do not meet standards. Secondly to this Escooters should be made legal and have the same standards/rules applied as ebikes. Fire risk would rapidly drop all round across all public and private spaces including TFL if this was implemented.

Ebikes and Escooters should really be seen as a natural bedfellow to public transport because by allowing journeys at both ends to be made quickly they effectively increase catchment areas and would help.grow use.

Without the only way to reduce the fire risk is unfortunately to ban them to the detriment of the majority of users who both use ones that meet standards and use them responsibly.

 

[Bungle73]

Let's call a spade a spade here. I'll you what this is. This part of the ongoing hate campaign in this country aimed at cycling and cyclists. It's as simple as that. Apparently we're all terrible people for choosing an unselfish mode of transport that doesn't pollute and keeps us healthy, and other people out of the hospital. Where as the drivers who kill 5 people and seriously injure thousands a day, what find upstanding people they are!

Where's the call to ban cars? Nowhere that's where. Hypocrites.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This part of the ongoing hate campaign in this country aimed at cycling and cyclists.

The people riding these illegal monstrosities that have led to this are not "cycling" and are not "cyclists". They are illegally motorcycling, and are motorcyclists. The vehicles are illegal electric motorcycles.

 

[Central]

All the money spent on cycle lanes that have wreaked havoc with London’s buses could’ve been better spent improving London’s transport infrastructure.

 

[bramling]

Let's call a spade a spade here. I'll you what this is. This part of the ongoing hate campaign in this country aimed at cycling and cyclists. It's as simple as that. Apparently we're all terrible people for choosing an unselfish mode of transport that doesn't pollute and keeps us healthy, and other people out of the hospital. Where as the drivers who kill 5 people and seriously injure thousands a day, what find upstanding people they are!

Where's the call to ban cars? Nowhere that's where. Hypocrites.

Not quite sure how an e-bike keeps someone healthy. But we aren’t talking about a cycle, it’s effectively a motorcycle, and these are already prohibited on LU.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not quite sure how an e-bike keeps someone healthy.

A legal one provides assistance, you still have to pedal.

 

[bramling]

A legal one provides assistance, you still have to pedal.

Bit of a cop-out compared to a regular bike though. It’s like the people who cycle a couple of miles along an almost-flat disused railway path, and think they’ve had an effective workout.

 

[Egg Centric]

Bit of a cop-out compared to a regular bike though. It’s like the people who cycle a couple of miles along an almost-flat disused railway path, and think they’ve had an effective workout.

It entirely depends how you ride it (I will admit that I meet your description, but there is nothing stopping me using it in a way that makes it harder to use than a normal bike by just turning the motor off - and everything in between).

 

[ChrisC]

Bit of a cop-out compared to a regular bike though. It’s like the people who cycle a couple of miles along an almost-flat disused railway path, and think they’ve had an effective workout.

I bought my legal folding e-bike almost 3 years ago now. At the age of 65 it was the first time I had been on a bike since I was in my teens. After a short try out on a quiet country lane, on my second trip out I cycled 17 miles along a cycle trail peddling all the way. I find the electric motor great for assisting on hills especially if I have to set off on a hill. Now in addition to doing at least one walk of between 5 and 10 miles each week I also try to do a cycle ride each week.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Let's call a spade a spade here. I'll you what this is. This part of the ongoing hate campaign in this country aimed at cycling and cyclists. It's as simple as that. Apparently we're all terrible people for choosing an unselfish mode of transport that doesn't pollute and keeps us healthy, and other people out of the hospital. Where as the drivers who kill 5 people and seriously injure thousands a day, what find upstanding people they are!

Where's the call to ban cars? Nowhere that's where. Hypocrites.

This is neither an attack on cyclists nor an attack on people with disabilities.

This is a problem caused by a lack of action on the part of the authorities (Government, Police and Trading Standards). Trading Standards authorities have done next to nothing to prevent the sales of dodgy e-bikes and dodgy conversion kits. Police forces do next to nothing to prevent people riding (clearly) non-legal cycles. Government has sat and watched all this happen without forcing anyone's hand or introducing new legislation to try and combat the issues. It is this lack of action that has led to the huge influx of non-compliant e-cycles (many of which should actually be classed as motorcycles). It is this lack of action that is forcing TfL to introduce it's own rules in order to reduce the risk to its staff and customers.

 

[Horizon22]

Greater Anglia have banned e-bikes, including folding e-bikes, and e-scooters, for fire safety reasons, for a while now - I think TfL are a bit slower to this than some other main-line TOCs have been.

Indeed, I thought it was already banned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, I thought it was already banned.

It does appear that Greater Anglia is the only TOC to have banned them so far, though this will no doubt spread.

 

[stuu]

Let's call a spade a spade here. I'll you what this is. This part of the ongoing hate campaign in this country aimed at cycling and cyclists. It's as simple as that. Apparently we're all terrible people for choosing an unselfish mode of transport that doesn't pollute and keeps us healthy, and other people out of the hospital. Where as the drivers who kill 5 people and seriously injure thousands a day, what find upstanding people they are!

Where's the call to ban cars? Nowhere that's where. Hypocrites.

Disagree. I ride thousands of miles on my bike every year but I don't see how banning e-bikes remotely comes under the hating of cyclists (which I agree is a real thing). As others have said, it is down to the failure of policing, customs and trading standards to stop this dodgy stuff coming into the country and being common outside every takeaway. Deliveroo etc should also be held to account.

I really wouldn't want to be in a tunnel on a train which had a dodgy lithium battery catch fire

 

[Florence Rox]

Personally, I think e bikes should be banned due to the sheer size of them. Three or four in one Metropolitan Line train carriage pretty takes up all the spare space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I think e bikes should be banned due to the sheer size of them. Three or four in one Metropolitan Line train carriage pretty takes up all the spare space.

Proper, legal e-bikes are mostly the same size as a regular cycle. They're just a bit heavier (carrying mine up the stairs at Bletchley when the lift was broken was not fun!) and have a thicker lower frame tube to accommodate the battery (or it's visibly mounted on that tube). There are even some (one is pictured above) where the frame is the same size and the batteries are distributed through it.

These stupid fake motorcycles (which are available as the legal type, but are mostly illegal) are certainly a problem - particularly the folders which take up half a vestibule. Perhaps part of the spec should be a maximum tyre thickness?

 

[Mawkie]

Weirdly, Toronto Transit bans ebikes in winter, but not summer. They had a fire inside a carriage as shown in this news news report from YouTube.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Proper, legal e-bikes are mostly the same size as a regular cycle. They're just a bit heavier (carrying mine up the stairs at Bletchley when the lift was broken was not fun!) and have a thicker lower frame tube to accommodate the battery (or it's visibly mounted on that tube).

These stupid fake motorcycles (which are available as the legal type, but are mostly illegal) are certainly a problem - particularly the folders which take up half a vestibule. Perhaps part of the spec should be a maximum tyre thickness?

I would've expected that there would already be some sort of maximum dimensions specified for folded bikes (even conventional ones) for the purposes of being able to take them on TfL services, but if there is, TfL certainly haven't made it obvious or easy to find.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would've expected that there would already be some sort of maximum dimensions specified for folded bikes (even conventional ones) for the purposes of being able to take them on TfL services, but if there is, TfL certainly haven't made it obvious or easy to find.

There would certainly be a benefit to that. Bromptons and clones take up about the same vestibule space as a medium suitcase (but unlike the suitcase can't really go in the overhead) and so are fine unless you're going to ban suitcases from peak time trains. Those 20" wheel hybrids that just fold in the middle take up far too much space.

I suppose the only rule you could apply is the standard luggage one and say "no bigger than 90x50x30 when folded" - but that would rule out the really silly ones - the 90 would get those "fold in half" ones, and the 30 would get the ones with the massive tyres. The only problem there is that most trolley cases and rucksacks stand upright, so the 90 dimension is usually vertical (nobody seems to use traditional suitcases any more and even if they did they can be stood on end), whereas a folding bike has it horizontal which gets in the way far worse.

A requirement to be encased might also help, because nobody really does cases for those silly ones, and a soft nylon case fitting a Brompton would fit easily in your pocket or rucksack.

 

[Tetragon213]

Last time I checked, my phone battery is about 15Wh, whereas batteries on an e-bike are often in the >500Wh range, aka around 33 times the capacity.

I'm willing to wager that a 500Wh battery pack going up will produce far more of a light show than my phone battery would if it went up in smoke.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transit/comments/1jcb7yp/some_photos_of_another_australian_melbourne_ebike/

I would not want to be the unfortunate soul cleaning up after that!

 

[Julia]

With London* being quite flat...

Beg to differ, there's a reason why the bit between Kings Cross and Farringdon is called "Mount Pleasant"...

(And it's the reason why I take my non-e-Brompton on the Circle line sometimes, if I've overdone it on the pedalling at the country end of my journey in)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Beg to differ, there's a reason why the bit between Kings Cross and Farringdon is called "Mount Pleasant"...

I've walked that a lot and it isn't that bad (and there is more than one route if you don't like the hill). But if you're riding an e-bike, you obviously won't feel any hills, thus you don't need to take it on the Tube. Your Brompton is allowed anyway.