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Caught with Child ticket at 18 GWR

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avy

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when my train arrived at london paddington i was stopped by a gwr (i think) staff member when i was coming up to the barriers and they asked me for my age i said multiple times im 15 then after like 5 mins standing around repeating lies it wasn’t going anywhere so i showed to them that i was 18 on my phone, then they took down some information like email, name, address, phone number. also asked me to do some interview but i denied. they also wanted to look through my trainpal and trainline app to see if ive done this before and she seen that it was my first ever train journey but i think she thought i was lying asking me if i had other accounts but i didnt. then she gave me a small “gwr reported for prosecution” card and said ill get a letter in 4 to 8 weeks. what will happen to me as im really anxious and cant stop thinking about it. i’m really worried that they will take me to court or give me a really high fine. like im okay with paying a £100 fine but anything higher i’m scared. please reassure me what will happen as i regret doing what i did heavily. thankyou
 
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WesternLancer

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when my train arrived at london paddington i was stopped by a gwr (i think) staff member when i was coming up to the barriers and they asked me for my age i said multiple times im 15 then after like 5 mins standing around repeating lies it wasn’t going anywhere so i showed to them that i was 18 on my phone, then they took down some information like email, name, address, phone number. also asked me to do some interview but i denied. they also wanted to look through my trainpal and trainline app to see if ive done this before and she seen that it was my first ever train journey but i think she thought i was lying asking me if i had other accounts but i didnt. then she gave me a small “gwr reported for prosecution” card and said ill get a letter in 4 to 8 weeks. what will happen to me as im really anxious and cant stop thinking about it. i’m really worried that they will take me to court or give me a really high fine. like im okay with paying a £100 fine but anything higher i’m scared. please reassure me what will happen as i regret doing what i did heavily. thankyou
Hi - you have committed a criminal offence by travelling on a train without a valid ticket - in this case a child ticket when you are over age of 16 years old. You can be prosecuted in the magistrates court for that - however, there will be some stages before it gets to that, which will give the opportunity to try and avoid prosecution

You should read this in full to understand their approach


You can get help here on what to expect and how to handle it.

It's vital you get the letter they will send to you in due course - it could take some weeks or even months before you get that. it's vital that you receive it and that you respond to it if you want to avoid being prosecuted (a non response will mean it just gets automatically escalated to court)

Also be aware they will interrogate your online purchases of tickets (using the data from the ticket you will have showed) to see how often you have done this before. they will want to charge you for those fares that you have avoided.

It was probably wise not to answer the questions you were being asked, since those questions are usually designed to get you to say things that would incriminate yourself, which they can use if this goes to court, to ensure they can easily secure a guilty verdict from the court.

In the mean time you

a) should buy a Railcard (16-25 Railcard probably) - so that you can reduce your train fares legally, and that is something you can then tell them you have done to show that you have changed your ways. This is an important part of avoiding prosecution, so you can see the cost of the Railcard as an investment in avoiding court - as well as a way to reduce your future travel costs.

b) look over all your past ticket purchases on line to see how many you have bought at a child discount (or other discount you are not entitled to use) and list them out for your private use - calculate how much money that involves and start saving that up because that is the sum they will be asking you to repay if they find the digital evidence - which is easy for them to do.

c) Have a look at other threads involving GWR to get the idea of how things will progress.
 

avy

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Hi - you have committed a criminal offence by travelling on a train without a valid ticket - in this case a child ticket when you are over age of 16 years old. You can be prosecuted in the magistrates court for that - however, there will be some stages before it gets to that, which will give the opportunity to try and avoid prosecution

You should read this in full to understand their approach


You can get help here on what to expect and how to handle it.

It's vital you get the letter they will send to you in due course - it could take some weeks or even months before you get that. it's vital that you receive it and that you respond to it if you want to avoid being prosecuted (a non response will mean it just gets automatically escalated to court)

Also be aware they will interrogate your online purchases of tickets (using the data from the ticket you will have showed) to see how often you have done this before. they will want to charge you for those fares that you have avoided.

It was probably wise not to answer the questions you were being asked, since those questions are usually designed to get you to say things that would incriminate yourself, which they can use if this goes to court, to ensure they can easily secure a guilty verdict from the court.

In the mean time you

a) should buy a Railcard (16-25 Railcard probably) - so that you can reduce your train fares legally, and that is something you can then tell them you have done to show that you have changed your ways. This is an important part of avoiding prosecution, so you can see the cost of the Railcard as an investment in avoiding court - as well as a way to reduce your future travel costs.

b) look over all your past ticket purchases on line to see how many you have bought at a child discount (or other discount you are not entitled to use) and list them out for your private use - calculate how much money that involves and start saving that up because that is the sum they will be asking you to repay if they find the digital evidence - which is easy for them to do.

c) Have a look at other threads involving GWR to get the idea of how things will progress.
this was my first time buying a ticket and travelling on a train since the ticket prices are high so is it more likely that i’ll just get a £100 fine? i’m also worried i won’t get the letter and my parents will throw it away or something. since they have my email and phone number will they send the letter on there too because i’ll 100% receive it if they do that.
 

Bungle158

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I think you are possibly confusing a Penalty Fare with the process GWR have begun. You have been reported for fare evasion, which is a criminal offence, so there will not be the option of a "£100 fine".

@WesternLancer has given sound advice and a very clear outline of what you can expect to happen next. Hopefully you will avoid court proceedings. That almost certainly means GWR seeking payment for the fare avoided and an admin charge, typically around £150
 

WesternLancer

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this was my first time buying a ticket and travelling on a train since the ticket prices are high so is it more likely that i’ll just get a £100 fine?

No. Penalty Fares for that sum are not issued after the event, and in any case Penalty Fares are not usually given when the member of staff suspects deliberate evasion (probably re-inforced by your repeated attempts to claim you were 15 when your were not). Realistically you will have two options:

- seek an out of court settlement involving the sum evaded and costs they will incur looking into it (typically the railway companies charge about £150 for those costs). If you have only done this once then they won't be seeking money for other fares evaded as they won't be able to find any evidence of other fares evaded.

or

- they take the matter to court, and if found guilty, you receive a court fine, costs, and a criminal record. You should seek to avoid this option if you can

i’m also worried i won’t get the letter and my parents will throw it away or something.

You need to prevent this happening.

It may be that you need to think about talking to your parents about what has happened if you can, as hopefully they will want to help you sort this out in the best way possible and avoid it going to court. This is entirely possible to achieve.

You should tell your parents that you are expecting an important letter.

It's a separate issue but it seems odd to me that people in your house throw away post that is sent to other people in the house, especially if those people are over 18. Some of the most important communications in life are still likely to be sent in a formal hard copy letter.

since they have my email and phone number will they send the letter on there too because i’ll 100% receive it if they do that.

Probably not - the railway companies usually prefer to do this in writing, with hard copy letters.

You are not in a process now where things are done in ways that are convenient to you I'm afraid. It's not some sort of customer care experience. Their view is that you have stolen money from them by not paying the fare you were supposed to pay.

If you read the document I linked to you will get a better idea of what to expect.
 
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avy

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I think you are possibly confusing a Penalty Fare with the process GWR have begun. You have been reported for fare evasion, which is a criminal offence, so there will not be the option of a "£100 fine".

@WesternLancer has given sound advice and a very clear outline of what you can expect to happen next. Hopefully you will avoid court proceedings. That almost certainly means GWR seeking payment for the fare avoided and an admin charge, typically around £150
what i meant by £100 fine is the £100 plus £50 but pay within 21 days so its £100. will i just have to wait for the letter then pay the fine but if i ignore it then it’ll be taken to court?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

No. Penalty Fares for that sum are not issued after the event, and in any case Penalty Fares are not usually given when the member of staff suspects deliberate evasion (probably re-inforced by your repeated attempts to claim you were 15 when your were not). Realistically you will have two options:

- seek an out of court settlement involving the sum evaded and costs they will incur looking into it (typically the railway companies charge about £150 for those costs). If you have only done this once then they won't be seeking money for other fares evaded as they won't be able to find any evidence of other fares evaded.

or

- they take the matter to court, and if found guilty, you receive a court fine, costs, and a criminal record. You should seek to avoid this option if you can



You need to prevent this happening.

It may be that you need to think about talking to your parents about what has happened if you can, as hopefully they will want to help you sort this out in the best way possible and avoid it going to court. This is entirely possible to achieve.

You should tell your parents that you are expecting an important letter.

It's a separate issue but it seems odd to me that people in your house throw away post that is sent to other people in the house, especially if those people are over 18. Some of the most important communications in life are still likely to be sent in a formal hard copy letter.



Probably not - the railway companies usually prefer to do this in writing, with hard copy letters.

You are not in a process now where things are done in ways that are convenient to you I'm afraid. It's not some sort of customer care experience. Their view is that you have stolen money from them by not paying the fare you were supposed to pay.

If you read the document I linked to you will get a better idea of what to expect.
okay thank you for your responses. is the seek out of court thing the first thing they’ll send a letter about and i have 21 days to pay them and if i don’t then they’ll take it to court? i read the link you sent and they said they’ll do everything they can to avoid taking it to court but i’ll have to pay for the fine and ticket so about £100 - £150. the whole court thing is what is making me anxious i’m 100% up to paying £150
 
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avy

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WesternLancer

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Lewisham2221

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one person in this discussion said it and it says here on page 9. https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-...WR-Revenue-Protection-Policy-January-2023.pdf maybe i’m wrong idk that’s why im here for help because im unsure of what’s going on and i want to think the worst outcome won’t happen
I think you are getting confused with a Penalty Fare. A Penalty Fare is a specific thing with very specific, strict rules in place regarding how they are issued. A Penalty Fare can only be issued at the time of the offence. You have not been issued with a Penalty Fare, and cannot now be issued with one for this offence.

You have been reported for potential prosecution. This means the details of the incident will be passed onto GWRs revenue/fraud/prosecution team, for investigation. They will then (highly likely), write to you with a Notice of Intended Prosecution. This will give details of the incident/offence and clearly state that they are seriously considering taking you to court. They will give you the chance to reply to them, providing your version of events and are likely to offer you the chance to resolve the issue without going to court. If this is the one and only ticket purchase on your account, that resolution will be a settlement of the Adult Anytime Single fare for the journey you made - GWR a very good in this regard and will usually take into account what you did actually already for the incorrect ticket and deduct this from the total - and an admin fee to cover the costs incurred by their revenue protection team, these costs can vary, but around £150 is common.
 

WesternLancer

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what i meant by £100 fine is the £100 plus £50 but pay within 21 days so its £100.
I don't think this exists, I think you are getting muddled up with Penalty Fares (that you often se on posters at stations). Penalty Fares are £100 reduced to £50 if paid promptly within 21 days

I do not believe you have been issued with a penalty fare but if you upload a copy of any paperwork you were given that can be checked - obscure your name and ref number / any other personal details before uploading


will i just have to wait for the letter
Yes you will

then pay the fine but if i ignore it then it’ll be taken to court?

That letter will not include a fine - it will threaten to prosecute you but give you the chance to explain what happened from your point of view. Your reply will be the basis on which the Railway company will decide what option to then take


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


okay thank you for your responses. is the seek out of court thing the first thing they’ll send a letter about
No - they will give you the chance to explain what happened from your point of view. This is your chance to apologise, promise to never do this again and ask them if they are kind enough not to prosecute you and settle it out of court

and i have 21 days to pay them
IF they offer to settle it out of court they will tell you how quickly they want you to pay that settlement - it will likely be around 14 to 21 days

and if i don’t then they’ll take it to court?
If they don't offer you a settlement / or if you don't pay the settlement if they offer you one, then yes they will take it to court

i read the link you sent and they said they’ll do everything they can to avoid taking it to court but i’ll have to pay for the fine and ticket so about £100 - £150. the whole court thing is what is making me anxious i’m 100% up to paying £150

It will probably cost you more than £150. They will seek payment of the train fare (you have not said where you travelled from so we can't tell you how much the fare is, but if you state it we can advise. The fare would be much more if you started from say Bristol, compared with if you started from Reading, for example.
 

avy

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I don't think this exists, I think you are getting muddled up with Penalty Fares (that you often se on posters at stations). Penalty Fares are £100 reduced to £50 if paid promptly within 21 days

I do not believe you have been issued with a penalty fare but if you upload a copy of any paperwork you were given that can be checked - obscure your name and ref number / any other personal details before uploading



Yes you will



That letter will not include a fine - it will threaten to prosecute you but give you the chance to explain what happened from your point of view. Your reply will be the basis on which the Railway company will decide what option to then take


No - they will give you the chance to explain what happened from your point of view. This is your chance to apologise, promise to never do this again and ask them if they are kind enough not to prosecute you and settle it out of court


IF they offer to settle it out of court they will tell you how quickly they want you to pay that settlement - it will likely be around 14 to 21 days


If they don't offer you a settlement / or if you don't pay the settlement if they offer you one, then yes they will take it to court



It will probably cost you more than £150. They will seek payment of the train fare (you have not said where you travelled from so we can't tell you how much the fare is, but if you state it we can advise. The fare would be much more if you started from say Bristol, compared with if you started from Reading, for example.
on the reply to the letter that threatens to prosecute me, do i have to be 100% honest with that happened such as explaining i bought a child ticket as an 18 year old and claiming that i was 15 multiple times when questioned or do i have to word things smartly so i don’t admit things that can be used against me in court such as saying that i understand im in the wrong for an invalid ticket. i’ll apologise and say i promise to never do this again. my journey was from swindon to paddington and it was a child ticket same day open return.
 

notmyrealname

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You mustn't lie but depending on what they're saying or asking you, there could be ways to word it.

We'll need to see the letter when it arrives, unless you already have it?
 

WesternLancer

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on the reply to the letter that threatens to prosecute me, do i have to be 100% honest with that happened such as explaining i bought a child ticket as an 18 year old and claiming that i was 15 multiple times when questioned or do i have to word things smartly so i don’t admit things that can be used against me in court such as saying that i understand im in the wrong for an invalid ticket. i’ll apologise and say i promise to never do this again. my journey was from swindon to paddington and it was a child ticket same day open return.
Ultimately this depends on what they ask you in the letter - but you should not lie in what you reply.

When you receive the letter it is best you then come back here for specific advice on how best to reply - but in the meantime you can read other threads.

It looks to me like the Anytime Single Frae from Swindon to London is £87.90. This will be what they consider you have evaded in terms of the ticket.

If you have done this 15 times and they can find this on your ticket buying records on line then you need to prepare for them to ask you for this for each one way trip. They may off set what you already paid for the child ticket, but you can not be certain of that.

How did you get back to Swindon? Did you buy a legitimate adult priced ticket for that journey?
 
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saismee

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do i have to word things smartly so i don’t admit things that can be used against me in court such as saying that i understand im in the wrong for an invalid ticket.
It really doesn't matter if you incriminate yourself because they already have enough evidence to convict you if it reaches court. If you have done this in the past, don't mention it unless they specifically question it - you have said this is your first time which is a good thing (as long as you are telling the truth to the forum members trying to help you). Your best bet will be owning up to your mistake, admitting that you did it on purpose and that you won't do it again. If you intend to continue travelling by train in the future, buying a 16-25 railcard could be helpful to show that you are willing to start paying the correct fares (you also save 1/3 on most tickets for only 35 pounds!)
If you have done this 15 times and they can find this on your ticket buying records on line then you need to prepare for them to ask you for this for each one way trip. They may off set what you already paid for the child ticket, but you can not be certain of that.
The OP said they said they were 15 years old repeatedly, not that they have done this 15 times. OP stated that their online account only has one (this) trip.

OP, the letter you receive will have very scary wording and threaten prison time, but you won't need to worry about that. The worst outcome of the conviction for an offence like this will just be a fine, but you may have to disclose the conviction to some employers or when travelling abroad. I am mentioning this just to help ease your nerves about a potential conviction, someone more knowledgeable about this type of conviction can explain it better. Also, does anyone know how litigious GWR are? Is it common for them to prosecute on the first offence, or are they likely to settle?
 

avy

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Ultimately this depends on what they ask you in the letter - but you should not lie in what you reply.

When you receive the letter it is best you then come back here for specific advice on how best to reply - but in the meantime you can read other threads.

It looks to me like the Anytime Single Frae from Swindon to London is £87.90. This will be what they consider you have evaded in terms of the ticket.

If you have done this 15 times and they can find this on your ticket buying records on line then you need to prepare for them to ask you for this for each one way trip. They may off set what you already paid for the child ticket, but you can not be certain of that.

How did you get back to Swindon? Did you buy a legitimate adult priced ticket for that journey?
for me swindon to london with a return is £60 and a non return is £30. i paid £25 for child ticket open return. the gwr inspector printed off a return anytime adult ticket back to swindon so i guess that was nice of her but she didn’t have to escalate it for prosecution but yeah since this is the first i wouldn’t need to pay for any other trips

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

You mustn't lie but depending on what they're saying or asking you, there could be ways to word it.

We'll need to see the letter when it arrives, unless you already have it?
but would i need to specifically mention that im sorry for buying a child ticket when im 18 and repeatedly said im 15 until i gave up or would i say things like im sorry for buying an invalid ticket i wont do it again etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It really doesn't matter if you incriminate yourself because they already have enough evidence to convict you if it reaches court. If you have done this in the past, don't mention it unless they specifically question it - you have said this is your first time which is a good thing (as long as you are telling the truth to the forum members trying to help you). Your best bet will be owning up to your mistake, admitting that you did it on purpose and that you won't do it again. If you intend to continue travelling by train in the future, buying a 16-25 railcard could be helpful to show that you are willing to start paying the correct fares (you also save 1/3 on most tickets for only 35 pounds!)

The OP said they said they were 15 years old repeatedly, not that they have done this 15 times. OP stated that their online account only has one (this) trip.

OP, the letter you receive will have very scary wording and threaten prison time, but you won't need to worry about that. The worst outcome of the conviction for an offence like this will just be a fine, but you may have to disclose the conviction to some employers or when travelling abroad. I am mentioning this just to help ease your nerves about a potential conviction, someone more knowledgeable about this type of conviction can explain it better. Also, does anyone know how litigious GWR are? Is it common for them to prosecute on the first offence, or are they likely to settle?
when you say i might have to disclose the conviction to some employers or when traveling abroad are you talking about if i ended up going court and ill have a criminal record? i’ve been searching for quite a while and also emailing their prosecution email and it seems like they try to avoid court and will push out fines unless its more serious such as doing this multiple times or not paying for the fine. but they haven’t got my notice yet as the incident just happened yesterday so it’s gonna be a long wait… they said 4 - 8 weeks
 
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WesternLancer

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The OP said they said they were 15 years old repeatedly, not that they have done this 15 times. OP stated that their online account only has one (this) trip.
Thanks - I confused myself - I've amended my post.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

for me swindon to london with a return is £60 and a non return is £30. i paid £25 for child ticket open return. the gwr inspector printed off a return anytime adult ticket back to swindon so i guess that was nice of her but she didn’t have to escalate it for prosecution but yeah since this is the first i wouldn’t need to pay for any other trips

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Those fares are off peak fares that are cheaper (so discounted from the Anytime fare). You should not assume the railway will use off peak prices to calculate what was evaded. They may charge you for an Anytime Return fare if you were issued with a slip to allow you to return home. You should save up money in case they do

You can see all the fares here:
i’ve been searching for quite a while and also emailing their prosecution email and it seems like they try to avoid court and will push out fines unless its more serious such as doing this multiple times or not paying for the fine. but they haven’t got my notice yet as the incident just happened yesterday so it’s gonna be a long wait… they said 4 - 8 weeks

You should not contact them until they contact you - you risk actually making your situation worse by saying something in e-mails to them that might be used against you. I would advise you to cease e-mailing them

You also need to appreciate the railway do not 'push out fines' - these are the typical options:

- the railways can issue a Penalty Fare on the date stopped and questioned (you have not been issued one)

- a court can issue a fine as the punishment if it goes to court and someone is found guilty, there is a also a record of this guilty verdict (known as a criminal record, ie a court record of a crime that has been committed by the person concerned)

- the railway might offer to settle this out of court in exchange for you paying them the sum they consider you have evaded (this is not a fine although it might understandably seem like one) - it is a sum of money they ask you to pay in exchange for them not taking you to court
 
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saismee

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when you say i might have to disclose the conviction to some employers or when traveling abroad are you talking about if i ended up going court and ill have a criminal record?
Yes.
i’ve been searching for quite a while and also emailing their prosecution email and it seems like they try to avoid court and will push out fines unless its more serious such as doing this multiple times or not paying for the fine. but they haven’t got my notice yet as the incident just happened yesterday so it’s gonna be a long wait… they said 4 - 8 weeks
You don't need to do anything but wait for their email/letter at the moment. A fine is only able to be issued by a court, you currently have two possible resolutions:
1: Settle in court, where you will be found guilty and given a conviction and a fine. This type of conviction won't show up in DBS checks but you may need to disclose it in certain cases (someone else will need to specify, I'm not an expert)
2: Settle out of court (best case), where they will ask for a sum of money (not a fine) and will not prosecute you if paid within a certain amount of time. You don't need to say that you lied about your age repeatedly (they know you lied by the fact that you bought a child ticket), but you will need to own up to your mistake and admit that it was intentional. Your response letter basically needs to convince GWR that you will not fare dodge again, and they will let you off with an expensive warning.

I wouldn't suggest sending any emails or letters until you have received their letter/email first, and I would recommend sharing any correspondence here with information redacted (personal information and reference numbers). You are very lucky that you were caught on your first attempt at evading a fare, as this would be a much worse (and more expensive) situation if you had been doing it for a long time.

It is very easy to be panicked or worked up about this, but even a criminal conviction in this case is not a major problem (depending on your future career). Until you receive anything, it is best not to think about it beyond checking your emails (and junk/spam) and letterbox each day.
 

avy

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Yes.

You don't need to do anything but wait for their email/letter at the moment. A fine is only able to be issued by a court, you currently have two possible resolutions:
1: Settle in court, where you will be found guilty and given a conviction and a fine. This type of conviction won't show up in DBS checks but you may need to disclose it in certain cases (someone else will need to specify, I'm not an expert)
2: Settle out of court (best case), where they will ask for a sum of money (not a fine) and will not prosecute you if paid within a certain amount of time. You don't need to say that you lied about your age repeatedly (they know you lied by the fact that you bought a child ticket), but you will need to own up to your mistake and admit that it was intentional. Your response letter basically needs to convince GWR that you will not fare dodge again, and they will let you off with an expensive warning.

I wouldn't suggest sending any emails or letters until you have received their letter/email first, and I would recommend sharing any correspondence here with information redacted (personal information and reference numbers). You are very lucky that you were caught on your first attempt at evading a fare, as this would be a much worse (and more expensive) situation if you had been doing it for a long time.

It is very easy to be panicked or worked up about this, but even a criminal conviction in this case is not a major problem (depending on your future career). Until you receive anything, it is best not to think about it beyond checking your emails (and junk/spam) and letterbox each day.
thankyou for the explanation i thought it was a fine but it’s to pay them to not prosecute. when i was emailing them they said the pre court settlement would be the fare of the journey plus the administrative charge. do you roughly know how much the administrative charge would be? i’m only emailing them for questions im
not saying anything else as they haven’t received the report in their system yet so i’ll definitely just have to wait for the letter.
 

WesternLancer

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do you roughly know how much the administrative charge would be?
possibly about £150 (as well as the fare for the journey as you say - with the fare usually calculated at the Anytime Single fare price)

i’m only emailing them for questions im
not saying anything else as they haven’t received the report in their system yet so i’ll definitely just have to wait for the letter.
OK - but stop e-mailing them anyway
 

saismee

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possibly about £150 (as well as the fare for the journey as you say - with the fare usually calculated at the Anytime Single fare price)
It may be two anytime singles as they issued a return ticket for OP. I'd say its safe to assume the settlement will be around 300 pounds.
 

avy

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possibly about £150 (as well as the fare for the journey as you say - with the fare usually calculated at the Anytime Single fare price)


OK - but stop e-mailing them anyway
yeah i’m hoping it’ll be about £150 i won’t do this ever again. i’ll also stop emailing them as you said. i appreciate all you’re replies this has helped me understand the situation more.

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It may be two anytime singles as they issued a return ticket for OP. I'd say its safe to assume the settlement will be around 300 pounds.
it probably was for free just so i could get back home and she knows id have to pay more money anyway as she reported it for prosecution
 
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