How far could the Eurostar get

[andy33gmail]

I’ve been dipping in and out of the various public fora here for years. I also watch various rail nerd videos. But only just thought to actually sign up tonight, whilst on holiday in Europe

I have a silly question. How far could the Eurostar (all class 374?) get in the UK if we wanted it to?

Ignoring constraints like who operates the lines, where there’s capacity, commercial sense, passport control and the like

Just based on loading gauge, platform length, where could it physically get to? I imagine there a lot of lines cut off to European trains by low victorian bridges … are the overhead lines in the UK even high enough?

 

[cle]

Helensburgh Central? Or Dunblane, actually - I would think. Unless you're thinking about looping back around.

If platform length is 'in' as a consideration, but capacity is not? Then probably Edinburgh. Not many places can take 400m.

 

[Harpo]

Unless 374s have UK standard AWS/TPWS the answer might be ‘not far’.

Power supply constraints would need checking too.

 

[hexagon789]

The 374s are too wide surely to go off HS1?

Unlike the older 373s, the 374s were built to take advantage of the generally larger loading guage on the continent.

The 373s made it as far as Glasgow, albeit being towed.

 

[Trainbike46]

I’ve been dipping in and out of the various public fora here for years. I also watch various rail nerd videos. But only just thought to actually sign up tonight, whilst on holiday in Europe

I have a silly question. How far could the Eurostar (all class 374?) get in the UK if we wanted it to?

Ignoring constraints like who operates the lines, where there’s capacity, commercial sense, passport control and the like

Just based on loading gauge, platform length, where could it physically get to? I imagine there a lot of lines cut off to European trains by low victorian bridges … are the overhead lines in the UK even high enough?

A 374 does not fit within the UK loading gauge (outside HS1), so would get until the first obstacle or platform after leaving HS1 at best.

A 373, which Eurostar still operates, would get much further, as they do fit within the UK loading gauge.

Eurostar also operates the ex-thalys PBA and PBKA sets, that can't make it to the UK at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2025 ==

A more interesting question might be how far you could get on the other end!

 

[andy33gmail]

so would get until the first obstacle or platform

I was curious as to how far that would be in practice.

Although I’ve overlooked a platform would do it too, not just a bridge

 

[mike57]

Width wise, digging around the net I think 373s were 2.81m wide and 374s are 2.92m (open to correction on this...) so not a big difference, but obviously if that extra width fouls something then its game over. Not sure about hieght although AI seems to come up with 3.7m for 374 and 373s, but I am not sure I believe that they are both the same.

Assuming those widrths are correct, and Mk3s were/are 2.74 then what about the dynamic envelope, might the answer be quite a long way without hitting anything if you went slowly. I am just guessing here, but its an interesting thought...

 

[zwk500]

Width wise, digging around the net I think 373s were 2.81m wide and 374s are 2.92m (open to correction on this...) so not a big difference, but obviously if that extra width fouls something then its game over. Not sure about hieght although AI seems to come up with 3.7m for 374 and 373s, but I am not sure I believe that they are both the same.

Assuming those widrths are correct, and Mk3s were/are 2.74 then what about the dynamic envelope, might the answer be quite a long way without hitting anything if you went slowly. I am just guessing here, but its an interesting thought...

It's not just about headline width, but about the total profile of course. 374s would definitely foul UK Platforms. Look for side-by-side comparisons at St Pancras to see the difference, it's quite marked, such as this from twitter:

So a 374 isn't getting beyond Camden Road, or if using the reversal and emergency/maintenance connections Kentish Town/Finsbury Park. On the ECML/MML the 374s may not even clear the tunnel profiles or adjacent line clearance before that.

 

[mike57]

So a 374 isn't getting beyond Camden Road,

I must admit seeing it like that the difference looks far more significant than the figures I found (if they are even right...) And again, if the figures are right 373s are slightly wider than Mk 3s. Would be interesting to see a 374 next to one of the old Hastings units...

 

[Jan Mayen]

I must admit seeing it like that the difference looks far more significant than the figures I found (if they are even right...) And again, if the figures are right 373s are slightly wider than Mk 3s. Would be interesting to see a 374 next to one of the old Hastings units...

Now that's a mixed traffic Gala I'd be pulling out all the stops to go to!

 

[Helvellyn]

I must admit seeing it like that the difference looks far more significant than the figures I found (if they are even right...) And again, if the figures are right 373s are slightly wider than Mk 3s. Would be interesting to see a 374 next to one of the old Hastings units...

But the 373 vehicles are not as long as a Mark 3. The Driving Motors are the longest at 22.15m, the fully articulated trailers the shortest at 18.70m.

As well as a Class 373 having being hauled to Glasgow we know some North of London sets were used by GNER between King's Cross and Leeds/York. There were restrictions on which platforms could be used due to unit length. But there were also constraints on how many units could be in the same section for power supply at the same time.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Helensburgh Central? Or Dunblane, actually - I would think. Unless you're thinking about looping back around.

If you hit Dunblane at line speed, and somehow overrode anything that was meant to stop... well, this exact scenario... you'd have enough momentum to climb the hill about as far as Lower Quoigs farm south of Blackford. And enough duty hours left to make it to your disciplinary hearing.

No idea how the power supply would stand up to that, mind you. I'd guess a Class 373 draws a decent chunk more power than a couple of 385s, even throttled back to 70mph.

 

[mike57]

North of London sets were used by GNER between King's Cross and Leeds/York

Am I remembering correctly that they were also limited to 110mph? Saw them a few times obviously but cant remember ever travelling on one, as I got the 'fast' first/last stop York service out of King X when I was doing the journey almost weekly.

 

[Class15]

So a 374 isn't getting beyond Camden Road, or if using the reversal and emergency/maintenance connections Kentish Town/Finsbury Park. On the ECML/MML the 374s may not even clear the tunnel profiles or adjacent line clearance before that.

You’re not getting to Camden Road either I don’t think - the bridge just east of the station (the blue one) would probably stop you there! And that’s before you even reach the platforms…

 

[VioletEclipse]

Saw and April fools headline yeaterday about a train service being introduced between Glasgow and Kyiv. I am aware of the numerous reasons why it's virtually guarenteed not to happen in the forseeable future, but it would be technically possible seeing as track exists the whole way there and I would honestly imagine that unless it were rediculously expensive then thousands of people would use it rather than flying, espescially for stations along the route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Saw and April fools headline yeaterday about a train service being introduced between Glasgow and Kyiv. I am aware of the numerous reasons why it's virtually guarenteed not to happen in the forseeable future, but it would be technically possible seeing as track exists the whole way there

You'd have to have adjustable gauge bogies or change the bogies at the border, though. Ukraine has Russian broad gauge, though I can see that changing!

and I would honestly imagine that unless it were rediculously expensive then thousands of people would use it rather than flying, espescially for stations along the route.

Hardly anybody would use a direct train from Glasgow to Kyiv in preference to flying. Even those who hate flying wouldn't be dedicating several days to doing that.

 

[zwk500]

Saw and April fools headline yeaterday about a train service being introduced between Glasgow and Kyiv. I am aware of the numerous reasons why it's virtually guarenteed not to happen in the forseeable future, but it would be technically possible seeing as track exists the whole way there and I would honestly imagine that unless it were rediculously expensive then thousands of people would use it rather than flying, espescially for stations along the route.

To get from Poland to Kyiv you'd need a bogie change or Variable Gauge Axles. Ukraine's track gauge is largely still Russian Gauge (1520mm) not Standard Gauge (1435mm), there is some odd bits of mixed gauge near the border for industrial traffic but not as far as Kyiv.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Saw and April fools headline yeaterday about a train service being introduced between Glasgow and Kyiv. I am aware of the numerous reasons why it's virtually guarenteed not to happen in the forseeable future, but it would be technically possible seeing as track exists the whole way there and I would honestly imagine that unless it were rediculously expensive then thousands of people would use it rather than flying, espescially for stations along the route.

That actually wasn't an April Fools - it's being proposed by a self-described think tank as part of their 'Starline' trans-European high speed rail network. Presumably all lines would be dedicated standard-gauge high-speed lines with new construction where appropriate. Other lines would include Naples-Helsinki, Lisbon-Kyiv, Madrid-Istanbul, and Milan-Oslo.

Just about all of the 'lines' seem to look like they were designed with the aid of a political map of Europe and a box of crayons. A high-speed line routed Zagreb-Tirana-Athens-Sofia would be an entertaining engineering challenge. And several of them don't actually make sense as through routes at all, involving lengthy deviations in the wrong direction.

 

[Snow1964]

HS2 is being built the bigger continental gauge.

At the moment there is no HS1-HS2 link, but if it was built then presumably could get to both Birmingham Curzon Street and end of line at Handsacre.

The original idea was 2 batches of trains for HS2, initially UK gauge versions which could continue on existing lines, and a second batch of Continental gauge trains (maybe double deck) once section to Manchester was open, for dedicated services London-Birmingham-Manchester with the spare initial trains becoming services on eastern leg to Yorkshire and Anglo Scottish services.

Going other way, it's possible Eurostar will specify quad voltage sets to replace the old Thayls sets which could in theory run to Italy, Spain, Austria etc

 

[zwk500]

Going other way, it's possible Eurostar will specify quad voltage sets to replace the old Thayls sets which could in theory run to Italy, Spain, Austria etc

The 374s are already quad-voltage aren't they? 25KV AC for High-Speed Lines, France, UK and the Tunnel, 15KV AC (16.7hz) for the projected German services (the same standard is also used in Switzerland and Austria) that haven't yet happened, 3KV DC for Belgium (same standard as Spain and Italy), and 1.5KV DC for Netherlands (same standard as southern France).

Running through to Spain, Italy or Germany would however require either those networks to permit ETCS-only operation or the trains to be fitted with the existing national signalling systems. I don't know if Perpignan-Barcelona or maybe Madrid is possible under only ETCS operation?

 

[43066]

Am I remembering correctly that they were also limited to 110mph? Saw them a few times obviously but cant remember ever travelling on one, as I got the 'fast' first/last stop York service out of King X when I was doing the journey almost weekly.

Correct re. 110mph max - confirmed to me a while back by someone who used to drive them!

 

[Bald Rick]

Just based on loading gauge, platform length, where could it physically get to? I imagine there a lot of lines cut off to European trains by low victorian bridges … are the overhead lines in the UK even high enough?

They would not be able to get off HS1 infrastructure, as they do not have compatible signalling equipment. If that was overcome, they would get at most a couple of hundred metres off HS1 infrastructure beofre either bringing the wires down (incompatible pantographs) or striking either an adjacent train or lineside infrastruture duee to their loading gauge.

I don't know if Perpignan-Barcelona or maybe Madrid is possible under only ETCS operation?

Perpignan - Barcelona is ETCS L2.

 

[HSTEd]

I believe the GNER 'White Rose' Class 373 sets had a gauging issue on the approach to Newcastle.

Something relating to the curve over the bridge into the station putting the trains out of gauge if the airbag secondary suspension deflated for whatever reason? I can't perfectly remember the details.

Consequently, the sets remained exclusively on Leeds trains to my knowledge.

 

[dazzler]

Consequently, the sets remained exclusively on Leeds trains to my knowledge.

The 373 sets also worked York terminating services for a while. Pretty much the equivalent of the current all stations stoppers.

 

[Bald Rick]

Consequently, the sets remained exclusively on Leeds trains to my knowledge.

Definitely went to York - I regularly caught one!

 

[brad465]

I believe the GNER 'White Rose' Class 373 sets had a gauging issue on the approach to Newcastle.

Something relating to the curve over the bridge into the station putting the trains out of gauge if the airbag secondary suspension deflated for whatever reason? I can't perfectly remember the details.

Consequently, the sets remained exclusively on Leeds trains to my knowledge.

My understanding was they could go round the curve onto the bridge from the south, but the curve was given a 10mph permanent speed restriction while 373s were with GNER (as opposed to 20-30mph now), to ensure no serious consequences resulted if they ever went to Newcastle.

 

[Peter Wilde]

Given the use of a slightly modified 373 and a gauge-changer at the Russian border, how about Thurso to …. Vladivostock? Add in a resurrected train ferry and the UK end could be wherever the furthest point in NI is beyond Belfast. (Oh dear. Maybe I need to get out more).

 

[Indigo Soup]

Given the use of a slightly modified 373 and a gauge-changer at the Russian border, how about Thurso to …. Vladivostock? Add in a resurrected train ferry and the UK end could be wherever the furthest point in NI is beyond Belfast. (Oh dear. Maybe I need to get out more).

Without changes to the gauge or power supply, but with some kind of signalling solution worked out, you could get as far as central Turkey before the 25kV ran out. Use the 3000V DC to get across northern Italy.

After that, you can drag it with diesel and use the train ferry across Lake Van to reach Iran, where it can keep the Pacers company until it reaches Zahedan. There, the track gauge changes to 1676mm and progress will finally stop.