Confused about barrier staff's opinion L4 ticketing restriction doesn't matter

[kanraku]

I don't use trains much and bought a return ticket from a station north of London on Thameslink down to Finsbury Park; I got an off-peak ticket which the machine said "might have restrictions" (but didn't say what they actually were) and the office wasn't staffed so I just got it anyway. Once I was on the train going down I saw that it had a link to the restrictions printed on the ticket at nre.co.uk/l4 -- after loading that up on my phone I saw that for the return journey it said:

"Not valid on any services scheduled to depart London Kings Cross, London St Pancras International, Moorgate or pass through London St Pancras International after 16:29 and before 19:02, regardless of where you join or leave the service."

Well, that was annoying, because I wanted to come back from Finsbury Park at around 6pm. Anyway, in Japan they have things called Fare Adjustment Kiosks where you can pay extra/get refunds depending on changes you make on the journey, so I walked around trying to find someone who sold tickets to see if I could upgrade it. Didn't find anyone but I did ask the gate staff where I could change the ticket to include the return journey at this time in the evening. They said there were "No time restrictions on any of our trains," I then read out what it said on the website linked from my ticket, they just said the same thing again. So, whatever, I didn't want to wait for an hour on the platform (I was already "inside the rail system" since I'd arrived on the tube from somewhere else in London so didn't have to go through any National Rail barriers) so just got the train back. When I got back to my original departure station, of course the barrier didn't open for me since the ticket was invalid, but the person at the gate just looked at the ticket, pressed a button on a screen (didn't see which of about eight options it was) and let me out. I said, "Is everything okay?" since I was pretty sure it wasn't. He just said, "Yes."

So, what happened? All I can think is maybe since I bought it from a machine which didn't at any point explain what the restriction was until after I'd paid for it, I was let through, but that's just a guess and probably wrong.

 

[MrJeeves]

I got an off-peak ticket which the machine said "might have restrictions" (but didn't say what they actually were) and the office wasn't staffed so I just got it anyway

I believe that it should be possible to get Thameslink ticket machines to tell you the restrictions that apply, but it's not an obvious button that does so. I also think it just tells you to go to nre.co.uk/L4 rather than showing the restrictions itself.

Anyway, in Japan they have things called Fare Adjustment Kiosks where you can pay extra/get refunds depending on changes you make on the journey, so I walked around trying to find someone who sold tickets to see if I could upgrade it. Didn't find anyone but I did ask the gate staff where I could change the ticket to include the return journey at this time in the evening. They said there were "No time restrictions on any of our trains," I then read out what it said on the website linked from my ticket, they just said the same thing again.

In the UK, if you travel with a ticket that isn't valid at the time you're travelling at, but would otherwise be valid, you are entitled to simply pay the difference between the ticket you bought and the cheapest ticket available for immediate travel on your journey. The process is similar to what you describe in Japan, where you'd go to either an excess fares window (these are pretty rare these days) or just to a ticket office to pay the difference.

This right is included in the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

9.5 Where you:

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;

you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

All I can think is maybe since I bought it from a machine which didn't at any point explain what the restriction was until after I'd paid for it, I was let through, but that's just a guess and probably wrong.

It seems like the, presumably poorly trained, staff members you encountered had no idea of even the most basic elements of railway ticketing.

We'd normally hear stories about staff that refuse to let people through (*cough* Paddington), but the reverse as you experienced is likely to be far more common that that. It's just the fact that being incorrectly allowed travel is understandably less likely to make someone post online than being incorrectly refused travel.

 

[Watershed]

I don't use trains much and bought a return ticket from a station north of London on Thameslink down to Finsbury Park; I got an off-peak ticket which the machine said "might have restrictions" (but didn't say what they actually were) and the office wasn't staffed so I just got it anyway. Once I was on the train going down I saw that it had a link to the restrictions printed on the ticket at nre.co.uk/l4 -- after loading that up on my phone I saw that for the return journey it said:

"Not valid on any services scheduled to depart London Kings Cross, London St Pancras International, Moorgate or pass through London St Pancras International after 16:29 and before 19:02, regardless of where you join or leave the service."

Well, that was annoying, because I wanted to come back from Finsbury Park at around 6pm. Anyway, in Japan they have things called Fare Adjustment Kiosks where you can pay extra/get refunds depending on changes you make on the journey, so I walked around trying to find someone who sold tickets to see if I could upgrade it. Didn't find anyone but I did ask the gate staff where I could change the ticket to include the return journey at this time in the evening. They said there were "No time restrictions on any of our trains," I then read out what it said on the website linked from my ticket, they just said the same thing again. So, whatever, I didn't want to wait for an hour on the platform (I was already "inside the rail system" since I'd arrived on the tube from somewhere else in London so didn't have to go through any National Rail barriers) so just got the train back. When I got back to my original departure station, of course the barrier didn't open for me since the ticket was invalid, but the person at the gate just looked at the ticket, pressed a button on a screen (didn't see which of about eight options it was) and let me out. I said, "Is everything okay?" since I was pretty sure it wasn't. He just said, "Yes."

So, what happened? All I can think is maybe since I bought it from a machine which didn't at any point explain what the restriction was until after I'd paid for it, I was let through, but that's just a guess and probably wrong.

What probably happened is that the staff you encountered (incorrectly) assumed that your ticket didn't have an evening peak restriction, since most Off-Peak Day Returns (CDRs) on the Thameslink/Great Northern network don't have such restrictions.

The L4 restriction code is mostly used for Super Off-Peak Day Returns; these have a variety of three letter codes, but for TL/GN on weekdays it's generally PDR (they have a cheaper, unrestricted version for weekends which has the code CBA).

For example if you had bought a CDR to London Terminals, the likelihood is that it would have had a restriction code such as B1, which would mean it's valid throughout the evening peak. In many cases this means it's cheaper to buy a ticket to London Terminals than to intermediate stations like Finsbury Park.

The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) do allow you to pay the difference in fare, if your Off-Peak ticket isn't valid at the time you want to travel (but is otherwise valid on that day and route). This is referred to as an "excess" fare; there is no penalty for obtaining an Off-Peak -> Anytime excess onboard the train or at your destination.

That said, you should have been given the opportunity to pay the excess fare at Finsbury Park. As a minimum the ticket office there (which is right next to the eastern barriers) should have been able to process it.

 

[kanraku]

Thanks for the responses! Regarding having the "right" to pay the difference to bump up the cost of a valid ticket for that peak-time service, based on 9.5 in the code, I had a look and 10.1 then says "You may be charged a Penalty Fare if you travel on a train service without a valid ticket or permit to travel," but wouldn't that have included me in 9.5.1: "that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling." I didn't have a valid ticket, as far as I can understand. Do I always have the right to pay up right away to make up the difference, or could a ticket inspector having a bad day be able to give me a penalty fare immediately even if I say I want to pay? I couldn't see anywhere where it says how the procedure works, other than here where it makes it seem like either one or the other may happen, but not whether it's dependent on me refusing to pay or being unable to, etc.

Would it have made a difference if I'd got a "Promise to Pay" ticket from a self-service machine as a way of acknowledging I knew the ticket was wrong and wanted to do something about it? I didn't actually know these even existed until I just read that document, but I assume there's some sort of way to get it to give me that, although would probably have to jump through quite a few menus to get it.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the responses! Regarding having the "right" to pay the difference to bump up the cost of a valid ticket for that peak-time service, based on 9.5 in the code, I had a look and 10.1 then says "You may be charged a Penalty Fare if you travel on a train service without a valid ticket or permit to travel,"

A Penalty Fare can be charged under certain circumstances if you travel at an invalid time, such as if you are on an Advance and get the wrong train, but not where the remedy is an excess fare.

...Would it have made a difference if I'd got a "Promise to Pay" ticket from a self-service machine as a way of acknowledging I knew the ticket was wrong and wanted to do something about it?

These only apply for journeys on Northern Rail and where you are paying by cash.

 

[Lewisham2221]

"Not valid on any services scheduled to depart London Kings Cross, London St Pancras International, Moorgate or pass through London St Pancras International after 16:29 and before 19:02, regardless of where you join or leave the service."

What an awful restriction - why should anybody be required to know which station their train calls at or passes through before or after their journey, let alone at which times it calls or passes?!

 

[Hadders]

It farcical that GTR hasn’t sorted this out.

Historically there were no evening restrictions on the Great Northern lines. When First Capital Connect held the franchise they introduced evening restrictions on many (but by no means all) off peak tickets. This was a sneaky price increase and caused much confusion for staff and passengers. Many staff believed all off peak tickets were restricted when this was far from the case. I remember being denied travel using an off peak ticket with no evening restrictions by Kings Cross gateline staff following a forum event, that was witnessed by several forum members.

GTR to their credit, removed most (but not all off peak restrictions) around 2017 and introduced cheaper super off peak restrictions that do have evening restrictions. Staff now think that all off peak tickets are unrestricted in the evening peak but restrictions on some tickets still exist.

The issue is that GTR retained the evening peak restrictions from Finsbury Park to many destinations which really is an oversight, when there are no restrictions from Kings Cross. In many cases the price is the same! This has been pointed out to GTR but they never do anything to sort it out.

The workaround, in most instances, is to buy a ticket from London Terminals and start short at Finsbury Park.

 

[yorkie]

What an awful restriction - why should anybody be required to know which station their train calls at or passes through before or after their journey, let alone at which times it calls or passes?!

Whoever worded that doesn't actually understand how fares restriction data works!

Booking engines don't apply restrictions on this basis.

Unfortunately several train companies have insufficient safeguards in place to ensure that people in the relevant positions have appropriate levels of knowledge.

 

[Starmill]

The station staff were giving you permission to travel using that ticket when, after they opened the gate for you, you clarified "is everything OK?" and they replied "yes". So in these circumstances you would have been covered regardless of the actual restrictions.

It's actually very common that valid tickets won't open the ticket gates. Gates are frequently not kept up to date in their programming, or rely on very outdated technology which is currently being very slowly phased out. I'm aware that with British ticket gates, there may be a big difference to Japanese ones in that respect. Gates in the UK should have a member of staff or a video call button to allow the gate to be opened for you by a member of staff where necessary.

 

[Hadders]

Whoever worded that doesn't actually understand how fares restriction data works!

Booking engines don't apply restrictions on this basis.

Unfortunately several train companies have insufficient safeguards in place to ensure that people in the relevant positions have appropriate levels of knowledge.

First Capital Connect used this form of wording when people started buying travelcards to circumvent the restrictions. The restriction code needs binning off as I don't believe GTR intend any off peak day tickets to be restricted in the evening peak.

 

[Haywain]

The restriction code needs binning off as I don't believe GTR intend any off peak day tickets to be restricted in the evening peak.

If they didn't have that intention there is no reason for the existence of their Super Off Peak tickets on weekdays.

 

[Hadders]

If they didn't have that intention there is no reason for the existence of their Super Off Peak tickets on weekdays.

To illustrate the point, let's look at fares from Stevenage:

Stevenage to London Terminals:
Anytime Day Return £28.90
Off Peak Day Return £22.80 (no evening restrictions)
Super Off Peak Day Return £22.50 (has evening restrictions)

Stevenage to Finsbury Park:
Anytime Day Return £28.90
Off Peak Day Return £22.10 (has evening restrictions)
There is no Super Off Peak ticket

GTR really should rename the Off Peak Day Return Super Off Peak and introduce a more expensive Off Peak Day Return priced at which I suggest should be priced at £22.40.

 

[Haywain]

To illustrate the point, let's look at fares from Stevenage:

The thing is, the fares from Stevenage have considerably smaller differentials than elsewhere. For example, let's look at the fares from Luton:

Luton to London Thameslink:
Anytime Day Return £38.00
Off Peak Day Return £26.70 (no evening restrictions)
Super Off Peak Day Return £21.00 (has evening restrictions)

Luton to West Hampstead Thameslink:
Anytime Day Return £37.10
Off Peak Day Return £19.90 (has evening restrictions)
There is no Super Off Peak ticket

The problem is how the restriction codes are used, and clearly West Hampstead should have either a Super Off Peak ticket or the CDR should have a B3 restriction in common with Cricklewood. The fare difference for Stevenage to Finsbury Park is trivial in comparison.

 

[Hadders]

The thing is, the fares from Stevenage have considerably smaller differentials than elsewhere. For example, let's look at the fares from Luton:

Luton to London Thameslink:
Anytime Day Return £38.00
Off Peak Day Return £26.70 (no evening restrictions)
Super Off Peak Day Return £21.00 (has evening restrictions)

Luton to West Hampstead Thameslink:
Anytime Day Return £37.10
Off Peak Day Return £19.90 (has evening restrictions)
There is no Super Off Peak ticket

The problem is how the restriction codes are used, and clearly West Hampstead should have either a Super Off Peak ticket or the CDR should have a B3 restriction in common with Cricklewood. The fare difference for Stevenage to Finsbury Park is trivial in comparison.

I do agree that the fare difference for Stevenage is ridiculous (more so with a railcard discount).

I suppose in the Oval world we’ll end up with a big fare increase as travel between 16:00 and 19:00 will be ‘peak’….

 

[saismee]

the person at the gate just looked at the ticket, pressed a button on a screen (didn't see which of about eight options it was) and let me out. I said, "Is everything okay?" since I was pretty sure it wasn't. He just said, "Yes."

Just a tiny bit of context/trivia, the buttons on that screen (the SCU) are just for controlling the gates. They have absolutely nothing to do with tickets, other than the let the operator know that a ticket reader is malfunctioning. The button was likely "release" which opens the selected gate for one person to pass through.

 

[kieron]

What an awful restriction - why should anybody be required to know which station their train calls at or passes through before or after their journey, let alone at which times it calls or passes?!

If you'd feel happier with a long list of "don't depart X between Y and Z" statements, you could try brfares.com.

One thing I notice about the restriction code (and one which is fairly common) is that it has an easement for the 16:40 from London Kings Cross. There isn't a train due to leave then, and there hasn't been for years.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Whoever worded that doesn't actually understand how fares restriction data works!

Booking engines don't apply restrictions on this basis.

Unfortunately several train companies have insufficient safeguards in place to ensure that people in the relevant positions have appropriate levels of knowledge.

I assume it's a badly worded and (in my opinion) terribly user unfriendly attempt to summarise what would otherwise be a long list. Bizarrely they do provide such a list for the AM restrictions.

The unpublished restriction data is, of course, a long list of "Not valid to depart from <station X> between <time Y> and <time Z>" which (again, in my opinion) is far more user friendly (although it would be even better if it was in alphabetical order )

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2025 ==

If you'd feel happier with a long list of "don't depart X between Y and Z" statements, you could try brfares.com.

One thing I notice about the restriction code (and one which is fairly common) is that it has an easement for the 16:40 from London Kings Cross. There isn't a train due to leave then, and there hasn't been for years.

Much better, although the average punter shouldn't need to go trawling through an unofficial source just to confirm that their ticket is (or isn't) valid on a particular train.

 

[kieron]

Personally, I would imagine that trying to make sense of a long restriction code like L4 is quite a niche activity, with "the average punter" either searching for an itinerary on which the ticket is valid, or simply guessing.