South Western Railway wrongfully gave me a penalty fare.

[badgermushroom]

Hello RailUK Forums. Apologise for the long post, but I am hoping someone can offer some advice here.

On Monday 17 March I was travelling from Wokingham to Frimley via Ascot. There was an outage at Wokingham station which meant no credit/debit card payments were able to be accepted at TVMs and Ticket Offices meaning that there was only cash payments accepted at the time. The ticket barriers were open for anyone to get on and off the platform without a ticket needed. As I don’t carry cash with me, I boarded the train with the view to get a ticket at my destination.

On route I was stopped by a train inspector who asked for my tickets. When I said about the situation at Wokingham station he replied, “you could have got a ticket at Ascot”. This is incorrect as I am unfamiliar with Ascot station having never been there so I was unable to correctly locate the ticket machine.

On top of this the connecting train was already in the platform and I had to use the bridge to get over from platform 1 to platform 3. I am registered disabled with a mild physical disability; therefore, I find using the stairs more difficult than abled bodied person and need more time to be able to move across platforms safely.

As I have an Expressive Speech Disorder as well, I was unable to think quickly on top of my head what to say to the train inspector. He then proceeded to see if I could pay via the app. As I have never brought a train ticket via a smartphone app, I was unable to perform this.

He then proceeded to get my personal information from me which made me nervous. When he asked for my date of birth, I asked him why this is needed to which he replied, “I’m just doing my job”. I complied and went along with it, getting more confused why he was asking for my personal information.

After getting the required personal information, he then printed out a penalty notice, which caused significant emotional distress as I was not made aware this was what he was going to do after getting my personal details. As I suffer from anxiety having been referred from my local GP to Talking Therapy for help, I found the situation extremely distressing and unfortunately I punched myself 3 times in front of the ticket inspector.

At no point did the ticket inspector ask for a Railcard, which I carry a disabled persons railcard with me at all times. On the SWR Penalty Fare website, it states the following:

"If you are a disabled passenger, and are unable to easily purchase a ticket at the station where the journey starts, then the appropriate fare, including discount if applicable, can be paid en route without penalty."

Out of just wanting to put an end to this distressing event I called the South Western Railway Prosecution service and paid the penalty fare and threw the notice in the bin. It wasn’t until speaking to my parents and South Western Railway Customer Service a couple days later that I realised I have a good case for an appeal, though SWR Customer Service is unable to help with Penalty Fares.

Unfortunately the penalty services website requires a notice number, which I no longer have so cannot proceed with an appeal on their website. I do have the reference number South Western Prosecution Service gave me when I paid my penalty fare. Additionally I can remember the exact time that I was issued a penalty fare which was 9:37am.

So, I’m posting this thread to see if someone can direct me on how to appeal this. I will be lodging a complaint against South Western Railway for causing significant emotional distress and mistreatment of a disabled passenger

 

[methecooldude]

On route I was stopped by a train inspector who asked for my tickets. When I said about the situation at Wokingham station he replied, “you could have got a ticket at Ascot”. This is incorrect as I am unfamiliar with Ascot station having never been there so I was unable to correctly locate the ticket machine.

The inspector was "technically" correct. The rule is you need to purchase a ticket at the first avaliable opportunity to do so, which minus the Guard on Wokingham to Ascot train being able to sell you a ticket, would be Ascot ticket office.

At no point did the ticket inspector ask for a Railcard, which I carry a disabled persons railcard with me at all times

Did you present the Railcard to the inspector at any time during this interaction, requested or not?

On the SWR Penalty Fare website, it states the following:

"If you are a disabled passenger, and are unable to easily purchase a ticket at the station where the journey starts, then the appropriate fare, including discount if applicable, can be paid en route without penalty."

Correct, and the change at Ascot is en-route

 

[badgermushroom]

Did you present the Railcard to the inspector at any time during this interaction, requested or not?

Unfortunately I did not present the Railcard to the inspector during the interaction.

 

[GadgetMan]

The inspector was "technically" correct. The rule is you need to purchase a ticket at the first avaliable opportunity to do so, which minus the Guard on Wokingham to Ascot train being able to sell you a ticket, would be Ascot ticket office.

Did you present the Railcard to the inspector at any time during this interaction, requested or not?

Correct, and the change at Ascot is en-route

The passenger is not at fault for not being able to purchase ticket at the start of the journey.

They are also not required to delay their journey at connecting stations. So if as they say, the connecting train was already there then Ascot may not have been their first opportunity.

An appeal should be successful in my opinion.

I'm sure someone will be along soon with a phone number you can ring to get the penalty fare reference number.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

An 'informed source' tells me that the following was posted at 08:16 on internal railway systems on the day in question:

At Wokingham station, the following issues have been reported:
The ticket vending machines are only accepting cash.
The customer information system is out of order.
Debit/Credit card payments cannot be accepted at the ticket office or ticket vending machines.
Prepaid tickets and Smartcard tickets cannot be collected from this station at this time.
The wifi is not working.
This is due to an IT issue.

It is unfortunate that @badgermushroom paid the Penalty Fare and no longer has the original notice because I would expect a properly worded appeal to succeed.

It still should be possible to appeal if @badgermushroom has a payment reference but the appeal will need to be lodged in writing because the online system is unlikely to accept a payment reference.

It is important that the appeal is worded correctly to make it very clear what has happened and I suggest that a draft is posted in this thread so we can proof read it. Should the appeal be unsuccessful then I suggest involving London Travelwatch and/or your MP.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'm sure someone will be along soon with a phone number you can ring to get the penalty fare reference number

As the OP seems to have an expressive speech disorder,an email or postal address might also be helpful.

Does SWR have a support contact for customers with disabilities?

 

[Pushpit]

SWR uses Penalty Services Limited, and their address - which can be used instead of the online screen is below:

Penalty Services, 12 Deben Mill Business Centre, Old Maltings Approach, Woodbridge, IP12 1BL

If you give the information you have - the payment reference and other details - they should be able to locate the incident.

You can also ask someone else to appeal on your behalf, if you think that is a better idea. You would need to write a short letter to authorise that, or alternatively fill in page 3 of this attached form, the top section if you are over 18, the lower section if you are under 18. This can be your parents, but actually it can be anyone who knows you well and can perhaps get across your limitations.

Your key lines are
- no facilities for buying tickets at Wokingham (inciude Hadders note, he means someone in the railway has disclosed this to him)
- disability means you don't have the normal capacity for buying tickets (provide proof of disability)
- getting a ticket at Ascot is therefore impractical
- the inspector should have shown more compassion since by the sounds of it, it should have been obvious why you didn't have a ticket.

By all means give a draft for comments here before sending in the appeal, you have a week or two to do that.

Unfortunately you may need to appeal three times over, but we can support you with this.

 

[WesternLancer]

SWR uses Penalty Services Limited, and their address - which can be used instead of the online screen is below:

Penalty Services, 12 Deben Mill Business Centre, Old Maltings Approach, Woodbridge, IP12 1BL

If you give the information you have - the payment reference and other details - they should be able to locate the incident.

You can also ask someone else to appeal on your behalf, if you think that is a better idea. You would need to write a short letter to authorise that, or alternatively fill in page 3 of this attached form, the top section if you are over 18, the lower section if you are under 18. This can be your parents, but actually it can be anyone who knows you well and can perhaps get across your limitations.

Your key lines are
- no facilities for buying tickets at Wokingham (inciude Hadders note, he means someone in the railway has disclosed this to him)
- disability means you don't have the normal capacity for buying tickets (provide proof of disability)
- getting a ticket at Ascot is therefore impractical
- the inspector should have shown more compassion since by the sounds of it, it should have been obvious why you didn't have a ticket.

By all means give a draft for comments here before sending in the appeal, you have a week or two to do that.

Unfortunately you may need to appeal three times over, but we can support you with this.

Not to detract from this excellent advice but I think the op is a disabled railcard holder. I would think they don’t need to provide any further details of any disability since the railcard shows the railway has already accepted this by virtue of the railcard eligibility and the strict criteria attached to the issuing checks for that Railcard.

Tho perhaps if other info on any disability is to hand it can do no harm to also include it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not to detract from this excellent advice but I think the op is a disabled railcard holder. I would think they don’t need to provide any further details of any disability since the railcard shows the railway has already accepted this by virtue of the railcard eligibility and the strict criteria attached to the issuing checks for that Railcard.

Tho perhaps if other info on any disability is to hand it can do no harm to also include it.

A Disabled Railcard isn't proof that they cannot access the station or ticketing facilities though. I have one, and can access all types of booking office and TVM.

 

[WesternLancer]

A Disabled Railcard isn't proof that they cannot access the station or ticketing facilities though. I have one, and can access all types of booking office and TVM.

I do agree. But I recall occasions where we have seen greater flexibility shown to such Railcard holders.

At first stage appeal it may be sufficient if other supporting documentation is not to hand.

 

[Starmill]

A Disabled Railcard isn't proof that they cannot access the station or ticketing facilities though. I have one, and can access all types of booking office and TVM.

Indeed but the OP suggests they intended to use the machine at their origin anyway so presumably they can too to some extent. From what they've said it sounds like the issue was a lack of time to do this and change platforms at Ascot?

 

[Snow1964]

Indeed but the OP suggests they intended to use the machine at their origin anyway so presumably they can too to some extent. From what they've said it sounds like the issue was a lack of time to do this and change platforms at Ascot?

And the plan of Ascot shows ticket issuing is inside a building (which may or may not have been open) and outside the station facing road approach. There appears to be nothing in building on Aldershot platform or on bridge or subway or platforms.

This suggests a deviation is needed to get to the ticket issuing, so supports case might be insufficient time to buy at interchange location if other train was already there. Thus not obliged to miss the train to find a machine.

Linking station plan

https://images.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/78eXyb4YOVAp2TBXAdhoOW/26e812cb97950fd2c49336229eb57a50/Ascot_station_map.jpg

 

[nuts & bolts]

Welcome to the forum!

An 'informed source' tells me that the following was posted at 08:16 on internal railway systems on the day in question:


It is unfortunate that @badgermushroom paid the Penalty Fare and no longer has the original notice because I would expect a properly worded appeal to succeed.

It still should be possible to appeal if @badgermushroom has a payment reference but the appeal will need to be lodged in writing because the online system is unlikely to accept a payment reference.

It is important that the appeal is worded correctly to make it very clear what has happened and I suggest that a draft is posted in this thread so we can proof read it. Should the appeal be unsuccessful then I suggest involving London Travelwatch and/or your MP.

Normally revenue staff have TVM (& IT outages) issues messaged to their phones to corroborate situations similar to what the op has experienced.

 

[father_jack]

Normally revenue staff have TVM (& IT outages) issues messaged to their phones to corroborate situations similar to what the op has experienced.

Yes that message in @Hadders post looks like "Tyrellcheck" which most SWR railway staff will have and the RPI clearly hasn't read or scrolled down to the pertinent message

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed but the OP suggests they intended to use the machine at their origin anyway so presumably they can too to some extent. From what they've said it sounds like the issue was a lack of time to do this and change platforms at Ascot?

I think the OP had fifteen minutes from what I can piece together. Regardless, the appeal should be based on compelling circumstances given there is no notice to examine. I would expect it to be allowed given the OP’s post.

 

[badgermushroom]

I think the OP had fifteen minutes from what I can piece together. Regardless, the appeal should be based on compelling circumstances given there is no notice to examine. I would expect it to be allowed given the OP’s post.

Hi AlterEgo. I didn't know what time the train left the platform from Ascot, all that I saw coming out of the train from Wokingham to Ascot was that my required train was inside the platform 3 waiting to depart.