Stopped by GTR over expired railcard

[Haywain]

Thanks - so could be bought a day or two before 26th birthday and be valid until almost 27 years of age.

Correct.

I had a quick look - it seems to me that the

16-25 railcard has no £12 minimum fare before 10am weekdays July and August (so for example could be used for work commuting in the morning on a short distance trips costing less than £12 during those months)
but
the 26-30 railcard looks as if it has a the weekday morning minimum fare for every month

I agree that there is no other difference.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think my last question before I wait for any letter is, what if I receive an SJP before I can even resolve my case or explain my case? Can that happen?

It can happen - but we find on here that when it does it almost always because of some admin cock up at a prior stage
eg letter sent by railway company to person gets lost in post
or
- railway company never sends letter even though believes it has
or
- letter gets sent, delivered correctly and 'lost / misplaced / eaten by dog' after delivery to your house - we had one of these a few weeks ago

the usual advice on that is to then
a) urgently contact railway company to say 'not heard from you before and surprised to get that can we settle this out of court and could you withdraw the court action (you usually get 2 or 3 weeks notice from court before plea date).
and / or
b) please not guilty to SJPN which then buys more time as an in court hearing gets timetables - and use that time to negotiate for settlement

but if this happens head back here for advice on what to do immediately you become aware of it

if you have not heard from the railway in about 6 to 8 weeks or so then that would be the time to start wondering what is happening (though they can and do take longer if they are busy dealing with lots of evasion cases)

 

[traveller3699]

It can happen - but we find on here that when it does it almost always because of some admin cock up at a prior stage
eg letter sent by railway company to person gets lost in post
or
- railway company never sends letter even though believes it has
or
- letter gets sent, delivered correctly and 'lost / misplaced / eaten by dog' after delivery to your house - we had one of these a few weeks ago

the usual advice on that is to then
a) urgently contact railway company to say 'not heard from you before and surprised to get that can we settle this out of court and could you withdraw the court action (you usually get 2 or 3 weeks notice from court before plea date).
and / or
b) please not guilty to SJPN which then buys more time as an in court hearing gets timetables - and use that time to negotiate for settlement

but if this happens head back here for advice on what to do immediately you become aware of it

if you have not heard from the railway in about 6 to 8 weeks or so then that would be the time to start wondering what is happening (though they can and do take longer if they are busy dealing with lots of evasion cases)

Okay thank you so much!
Hopefully that doesn't happen and I can just go for out of court settlement. Though has there even been cases where they just send an SJP as the only letter? Or do they always want to hear you out. This is the first time I've ever been caught or told off. So I'd imagine I can plead my case that I'd never do it deliberately. God what a mess lol.

 

[WesternLancer]

Okay thank you so much!
Hopefully that doesn't happen and I can just go for out of court settlement. Though has there even been cases where they just send an SJP as the only letter? Or do they always want to hear you out. This is the first time I've ever been caught or told off. So I'd imagine I can plead my case that I'd never do it deliberately. God what a mess lol.

From what we see they always want to hear from you before moving to court prosecution. Ie they don't just press the 'send to court' button immediately the report is received at the ack office so to speak.

Even Transport for London send a letter asking you if you have any mitigating circumstances before going to court even though their is clearly policy to prosecute in almost every case.

So my view remains that if you get the court paperwork out of the blue with noting received before hand something has gone wrong with the process that is supposed to happen. Where we see this on here it almost always turns out that people have in fact had letters and didn't understand what the letter was / didn't realise that is they ignored it the issue would not go away / someone in their house had misplaced the letter etc etc

for example see posts #1 and #7 in particular of this thread involving a different railway company:

SWR - Single Justice Notification

Hi All, Firstly, i have been reading a few other threads and wanted to say that the advice here and the manner in which these thread are handled is incredibly admirable and very cool that people give their time helping others with these matters. That being said, here is mine... On the 26th of...

www.railforums.co.uk

By reading the thread you can see it still got resolved without prosecution when the mess was untangled

 

[traveller3699]

From what we see they always want to hear from you before moving to court prosecution. Ie they don't just press the 'send to court' button immediately the report is received at the ack office so to speak.

Even Transport for London send a letter asking you if you have any mitigating circumstances before going to court even though their is clearly policy to prosecute in almost every case.

So my view remains that if you get the court paperwork out of the blue with noting received before hand something has gone wrong with the process that is supposed to happen. Where we see this on here it almost always turns out that people have in fact had letters and didn't understand what the letter was / didn't realise that is they ignored it the issue would not go away / someone in their house had misplaced the letter etc etc

for example see posts #1 and #7 in particular of this thread involving a different railway company:

SWR - Single Justice Notification

Hi All, Firstly, i have been reading a few other threads and wanted to say that the advice here and the manner in which these thread are handled is incredibly admirable and very cool that people give their time helping others with these matters. That being said, here is mine... On the 26th of...

www.railforums.co.uk

By reading the thread you can see it still got resolved without prosecution when the mess was untangled

Thank you so much you've been a great help this has put me at ease!
I'm really grateful. I'll keep an eye out for the letter.

 

[Same_Promo3006]

Thanks - so could be bought a day or two before 26th birthday and be valid until almost 27 years of age.

So presumably worth doing if the 16-25 railcard gives better use potential / discounts than the 26-30 Railcard

I had a quick look - it seems to me that the

16-25 railcard has no £12 minimum fare before 10am weekdays July and August (so for example could be used for work commuting in the morning on a short distance trips costing less than £12 during those months)
but
the 26-30 railcard looks as if it has a the weekday morning minimum fare for every month

There may be other differences, but that looks like a key one to me, in favour of buying the 16-25 railcard whilst still able to do so

Please correct me if I am wrong!

links to compare and contrast:

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2025 ==


They both give 1/3rd off (like most Railcards apart from the 16-17 saver Railcard which is 50% off for that age group)

See above, it's the times you can use them that are different....

It's annoyingly confusing!

Main difference between the 2 railcards are just this, July and August there are NO minimum fare. That gives you better conditions for that period.

 

[traveller3699]

Sorry I've like dragged this post to the ground. I suppose my only query would be that I am travelling at the end of July to America and I worry that any correspondence will be missed. I'm sure it won't take that long (at least I hope) for this whole matter to be resolved by then. But has it ever taken as long as 4 months and more for this to be dragged out? I mean I assume they'll get back to me within 2 months so I can sort this. I don't wanna come back and find out I've delayed payment and they're taking me to court.

Obviously this is worst case scenario but is there any information on time frame? Do I need to inform them that I will be travelling?

 

[WesternLancer]

Sorry I've like dragged this post to the ground. I suppose my only query would be that I am travelling at the end of July to America and I worry that any correspondence will be missed. I'm sure it won't take that long (at least I hope) for this whole matter to be resolved by then. But has it ever taken as long as 4 months and more for this to be dragged out? I mean I assume they'll get back to me within 2 months so I can sort this. I don't wanna come back and find out I've delayed payment and they're taking me to court.

Obviously this is worst case scenario but is there any information on time frame?

See post #26 of this one where I link to and copied a typical timeline

I received a witness statement as an American visitor (Balcombe to London journey)

I was visiting my husband in England (We are long distance) He takes care of the train tickets because I am not familiar with trains or the station names. I was very confused the whole time we were being questioned about tickets because I was not able to provide them with much information. We...

www.railforums.co.uk

If you go away use the Royal Mail redirection service (see their website) to get your post forwarded to a trusted person who can open it and alert you to contents.

 

[traveller3699]

See post #26 of this one where I link to and copied a typical timeline

I received a witness statement as an American visitor (Balcombe to London journey)

I was visiting my husband in England (We are long distance) He takes care of the train tickets because I am not familiar with trains or the station names. I was very confused the whole time we were being questioned about tickets because I was not able to provide them with much information. We...

www.railforums.co.uk

If you go away use the Royal Mail redirection service (see their website) to get your post forwarded to a trusted person who can open it and alert you to contents.

Issue is I'm only there for two weeks. I'm hoping that with the timeline you've sent, I got caught yesterday, I'd get my letter by May if not sooner (hopefully sooner, Inspector told me two weeks from now??) round this date. Send off my letter and hopefully get the out of court settlement before I fly so I can pay in full and travel worry free. I will have someone trusted at my place so I'll ask them to check mail daily and send me over any payment requirements.

 

[WesternLancer]

Issue is I'm only there for two weeks. I'm hoping that with the timeline you've sent, I got caught yesterday, I'd get my letter by May if not sooner (hopefully sooner, Inspector told me two weeks from now??) round this date. Send off my letter and hopefully get the out of court settlement before I fly so I can pay in full and travel worry free. I will have someone trusted at my place so I'll ask them to check mail daily and send me over any payment requirements.

I doubt inspectors on the front line know how fast the back office can process the cases and letters. Two weeks is probably just what they hope to achieve, and is a plausible thing to tell people who ask.

But I wouldn’t worry about that until it gets nearer the date you plan to be away.

 

[traveller3699]

I doubt inspectors on the front line know how fast the back office can process the cases and letters. Two weeks is probably just what they hope to achieve, and is a plausible thing to tell people who ask.

But I wouldn’t worry about that until it gets nearer the date you plan to be away.

In which case I guess I'll keep an eye on the letters. My issue is that my railcard is 9 months expired and I've taken some trips on it stupidly not realising that it was meant to be renewed. Can they backtrack all that? I'm gonna have to really push and apologize for settlement out of court if they can and beg they don't jump to prosecuting me in court. A lot of this is ignorant and me not realising but knowing I will never do it again.

Had no intention of doing it either! So now I'm an anxious mess till I get this letter. Of course I'm gonna push that I'd never intend to evade on purpose and that it was just irresponsible on my part. If I'd known that it was expired I would've renewed it and not evaded at all.
I'm also gonna push that since my interaction I have been paying full price for all tickets until I'm able to get a railcard for my age group.

 

[WesternLancer]

In which case I guess I'll keep an eye on the letters. My issue is that my railcard is 9 months expired and I've taken some trips on it stupidly not realising that it was meant to be renewed. Can they backtrack all that? I'm gonna have to really push and apologize for settlement out of court if they can and beg they don't jump to prosecuting me in court. A lot of this is ignorant and me not realising but knowing I will never do it again.

Had no intention of doing it either! So now I'm an anxious mess till I get this letter. Of course I'm gonna push that I'd never intend to evade on purpose and that it was just irresponsible on my part. If I'd known that it was expired I would've renewed it and not evaded at all.
I'm also gonna push that since my interaction I have been paying full price for all tickets until I'm able to get a railcard for my age group.

I’m afraid they can easily go back 9 months if the tickets were bought on line.

But you should prepare for that by going thru your own ticket buying records to list out for your own private records of all the tickets bought after the railcard expired. Then you can calculate the sort of sum they might require as part of the agreement they will hopefully offer. I’m afraid you should calculate this on the basis that they will not give credit cost wise for the sums already paid for those erroneously discounted tickets.

 

[traveller3699]

I’m afraid they can easily go back 9 months if the tickets were bought on line.

But you should prepare for that by going thru your own ticket buying records to list out for your own private records of all the tickets bought after the railcard expired. Then you can calculate the sort of sum they might require as part of the agreement they will hopefully offer. I’m afraid you should calculate this on the basis that they will not give credit cost wise for the sums already paid for those erroneously discounted tickets.

That's fair I figured that much. I hadn't made that many trips between my expiration and now so it shouldn't be *too* bad to pay back. Again I'm always happy to defend and reassure them I will never do it again and I will buy a new railcard.
Is it in my interest to call them and ask for an out of court settlement or is that too incriminating/a waste of time?

 

[Cuthbert]

That's fair I figured that much. I hadn't made that many trips between my expiration and now so it shouldn't be *too* bad to pay back. Again I'm always happy to defend and reassure them I will never do it again and I will buy a new railcard.
Is it in my interest to call them and ask for an out of court settlement or is that too incriminating/a waste of time?

Waste of time.
You calling them won't help and they won't have a telephone number for the public.

Just wait for the letter. Most cases you will get an out of court settlement if you apologise and not do it again. Buying a new railcard helps.

Best to wait for the letter and then post it on here with personal details redacted and the case reference.

You can work out a cost normally they charge a standard single per journey and not all ToCs give discount of tickets paid.
So if you bought a return with the expired railcard that will be two standard singles for that return. Check your history add them up with around £150-£200 admin and you should have a rough idea what they might ask for if an out of court settlement is offered.

The guru's on this forum will help with your drafted reply after a letter arrived.

 

[traveller3699]

Waste of time.
You calling them won't help and they won't have a telephone number for the public.

Just wait for the letter. Most cases you will get an out of court settlement if you apologise and not do it again. Buying a new railcard helps.

Best to wait for the letter and then post it on here with personal details redacted and the case reference.

You can work out a cost normally they charge a standard single per journey and not all ToCs give discount of tickets paid.
So if you bought a return with the expired railcard that will be two standard singles for that return. Check your history add them up with around £150-£200 admin and you should have a rough idea what they might ask for if an out of court settlement is offered.

The guru's on this forum will help with your drafted reply after a letter arrived.

Thank you so much!
Yeah that's extremely reassuring I really appreciate it. It's helped put my mind at ease at least a bit.

What if I bought a ticket somewhere, say to Manchester with the railcard and haven't used that ticket at all but instead bought a brand new ticket to Manchester without the railcard. Will they count this do you think?

 

[WesternLancer]

That's fair I figured that much. I hadn't made that many trips between my expiration and now so it shouldn't be *too* bad to pay back. Again I'm always happy to defend and reassure them I will never do it again and I will buy a new railcard.
Is it in my interest to call them and ask for an out of court settlement or is that too incriminating/a waste of time?

Yes. Don’t ring them. Just wait till they contact you then head back here for advice.

Buy a Railcard soon. It’s something you can then tell the railway you have done to actively correct your error.

 

[traveller3699]

Yes. Don’t ring them. Just wait till they contact you then head back here for advice.

Buy a Railcard soon. It’s something you can then tell the railway you have done to actively correct your error.

Okay cool will do I can't use it I'm not 26 yet for a few weeks but if it helps my case I'll take it and just store it.

 

[Haywain]

I can't use it I'm not 26 yet for a few weeks but if it helps my case I'll take it and just store it.

You are still eligible for a 16-25 Railcard which you can buy immediately.

 

[WesternLancer]

Okay cool will do I can't use it I'm not 26 yet for a few weeks but if it helps my case I'll take it and just store it.

Yes. I see your point. You’ll probably be 26 before you get their letter if this is the railcard you prefer to buy, so would have it before you reply to them and thus can still say ‘I have bought a new railcard…’

 

[traveller3699]

Yes. I see your point. You’ll probably be 26 before you get their letter if this is the railcard you prefer to buy, so would have it before you reply to them and thus can still say ‘I have bought a new railcard…’

Yeah ofc ofc

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

Okay so if my calculations are correct. I would have to pay back around £800 (this includes the £150 admin fee I've seen talked about) I tried to calculate as close as I could. It's not as terrible as I thought I guess.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2025 ==

So I just tried to apply for a 26-30 railcard, it said no understandably but it also makes no sense to update my 16-25. I'm essentially in a weird limbo lmao

 

[WesternLancer]

So I just tried to apply for a 26-30 railcard, it said no understandably but it also makes no sense to update my 16-25. I'm essentially in a weird limbo lmao

Why does it make no sense to buy a 16-25 railcard? It offers slightly better terms and you are still 25. It expires on the anniversary of purchase not on your 26th birthday AFAIK.

Up to you to choose of course.

 

[traveller3699]

Why does it make no sense to buy a 16-25 railcard? It offers slightly better terms and you are still 25. It expires on the anniversary of purchase not on your 26th birthday AFAIK.

Up to you to choose of course.

Cause I'm literally 26 on the 6 Apr. Literally two weeks. I won't be 25 anymore so I don't think it'll make sense to have it. Also what if I get stopped again and show that I have a 16-25 railcard when I could have the 26-30? Idk maybe I'm too literal. I don't mind waiting. I will probably be 26 when I write to them like you said earlier

 

[AlterEgo]

Cause I'm literally 26 on the 6 Apr. Literally two weeks. I won't be 25 anymore so I don't think it'll make sense to have it. Also what if I get stopped again and show that I have a 16-25 railcard when I could have the 26-30? Idk maybe I'm too literal. I don't mind waiting. I will probably be 26 when I write to them like you said earlier

It’s been explained already that a 16-25 railcard expires a year after its purchase and not on your 26th birthday.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It’s been explained already that a 16-25 railcard expires a year after its purchase and not on your 26th birthday.

It worth looking at the terms and conditions for the Railcard at https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/:

4. Conditions of use of the 16-25 Railcard

4.1. You must be aged between 16 and 25 years old to purchase this Railcard, unless you qualify under condition 4.3.

(...)

INFORMATION:

As long as you are aged 25 at the time you purchased the 1-year Railcard, you may still travel at the discounted fare throughout the validity period of the Railcard. Likewise, 3-year 16-25 Railcards purchased by the day before your 24th birthday will be valid for a full 3 years.

 

[traveller3699]

So I've read on the GTR penalty fares and prosecution part of the site that
"However, we may, once we have considered the inspector's report, or once we have considered any explanation, mitigation or relevant documentation sent to us, offer to settle the matter outside of court. The settlement figure is made up of the outstanding fare and a contribution towards the Prosecution Teams administration costs"
So if I understood correctly, that yes they send a letter offering you to explain yourself but they might just send a letter offering to settle it out of court already?

I've been waiting for their letter whilst also drafting my own vague-ish response which will ofc be altered depending on what they say. I've put up like a ton of alerts on my phone too to check my post so I guess we wait.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So if I understood correctly, that yes they send a letter offering you to explain yourself but they might just send a letter offering to settle it out of court already?

They might. But our experience here is that GTR always give you the chance to give your side of the story before deciding whether to offer an out of court settlement. And given that in your case you had been using an expired Railcard for several months, there's enough reason for GTR to want to check that this was careless on your part rather than intentional

Nothing is special about your case: so GTR won't give it special treatment.

 

[traveller3699]

They might. But our experience here is that GTR always give you the chance to give your side of the story before deciding whether to offer an out of court settlement. And given that in your case you had been using an expired Railcard for several months, there's enough reason for GTR to want to check that this was careless on your part rather than intentional

Nothing is special about your case: so GTR won't give it special treatment.

I'm gonna have to convince them it was careless and I'll never do it again. Praying that they're okay with an out of court settlement!

 

[dciuk]

What if I bought a ticket somewhere, say to Manchester with the railcard and haven't used that ticket at all but instead bought a brand new ticket to Manchester without the railcard. Will they count this do you think?

If the ticket is for a future date you could just buy the correct railcard that matches the ticket to make that ticket valid. If it was for a previous date (perhaps between you finding out your previous railcard was expired and the date you posted this message) and you therefore purchased a new undiscounted ticket, it is possible they might include it in any settlement, but if you advise them you did not use it (and evidence of having purchased a new ticket would help with this) they may well remove it from the settlement amount.

 

[traveller3699]

If the ticket is for a future date you could just buy the correct railcard that matches the ticket to make that ticket valid. If it was for a previous date (perhaps between you finding out your previous railcard was expired and the date you posted this message) and you therefore purchased a new undiscounted ticket, it is possible they might include it in any settlement, but if you advise them you did not use it (and evidence of having purchased a new ticket would help with this) they may well remove it from the settlement amount.

I just went ahead and bought a new ticket without the railcard. I'll be using my new ticket (without the railcard) on the way there cause I'm travelling with a friend. I will be using that ticket to check us onto the train. I can advise them that I did not use that ticket with the railcard and show evidence that I bought one immediately after getting caught. I'll also advise that I bought a 26-30 railcard as soon as I turned 26 which I probably will be by the time I get their letter.

 

[traveller3699]

Hey so it's been a month since this whole thing happened. I still haven't received any letter. At what point do I need to write to them to ask if there's an update?