NRW-NOT EMR services

[rocrat]

Quick query from me! https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W21756/2025-03-16/detailed#allox_id=0 shows 1R76 Norwich to Nottingham as a 6 car set

There's been a few others today too in either direction also showing as 6 cars.

Is this just because RTT (Realtimetrains.co.uk) has been fed/is displaying 2 sets of information, or are these trains actually running as 6 cars (and if so, do they fit!?).

It would be dreamy to have this many seats as these trains are usually overcrowded at weekends, at least Norwich-Peterborough (and often further!), but I didn't think there were enough trains for it, nor space at Ely in 3B (though I see this one used platform 1).

 

[skyhigh]

As far as I can see, they are actually 6 cars (well, at least the one I checked that is linked above).

 

[rocrat]

Is there a reason for the doubling up of the 170s? Sounds like a fab idea, but wondering how/why this is possible

 

[louis97]

Is there a reason for the doubling up of the 170s? Sounds like a fab idea, but wondering how/why this is possible

MML is shut south of Luton this weekend, this has been common recently to provide capacity for Nottingham to/from London via the ECML I suspect.

 

[rocrat]

MML is shut south of Luton this weekend, this has been common recently to provide capacity for Nottingham to/from London via the ECML I suspect.

This makes total sense -- thank you!

Gutted to have missed the 6 car trains at TTF this weekend!

 

[Class 170101]

Does Thetford actually take 6 cars?

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Does Thetford actually take 6 cars?

No. Railwaydata says the platform is 111 metres and Wikipedia says the car length of a 170 is about 23.6 metres. Times that by 6 and you get 141.6 metres.
It could fit in the down platform though, which is 150 metres.

 

[tramdan]

Does Thetford actually take 6 cars?

4 on the Up and 5 on the Down for EMR 170s. The shorter platforms than the train are dealt with by use of the Door Deselect system.

 

[dk1]

Last Sunday the 09:18 Nottingham to Norwich was formed of 170204/531 and continually and annoyingly lost time.

 

[MikeWM]

1R50 (the 1552 Norwich->Liverpool) yesterday was formed of 5 carriages (of 170), a 2-car and 3-car coupled together. I was on it - lots of space!

1R56 (the 0955 Norwich->Liverpool) on Sundays seems to be generally run as two sets coupled together, though it has only been 158s whenever I've got it, dunno if it has ever ran as 170s. As the (much later than ideal) first train to Peterborough from Ely (except in the magical summer months when we get an earlier GA service) it is rather popular so the extra carriages are very helpful.

On looking it up, I've very surprised to see that a class 170 carriage is longer than a 158. Possibly it is due to the position of the doors, but 158s feel considerably longer to me, at least on the inside.

 

[chubs]

We're talking quite a while back now but one summer (2015 give or take a couple of years, would have been August) I was on a 6 car 158 from Manchester to Norwich. I assumed we'd drop some of them off at Nottingham but no.

This was when both engineering works and strike action were ongoing and only a few trains actually ran so it may not have stopped everywhere. Made for a very pleasant journey!

 

[RailWonderer]

1R50 (the 1552 Norwich->Liverpool) yesterday was formed of 5 carriages (of 170), a 2-car and 3-car coupled together. I was on it - lots of space!

1R56 (the 0955 Norwich->Liverpool) on Sundays seems to be generally run as two sets coupled together, though it has only been 158s whenever I've got it, dunno if it has ever ran as 170s. As the (much later than ideal) first train to Peterborough from Ely (except in the magical summer months when we get an earlier GA service) it is rather popular so the extra carriages are very helpful.

On looking it up, I've very surprised to see that a class 170 carriage is longer than a 158. Possibly it is due to the position of the doors, but 158s feel considerably longer to me, at least on the inside.

158s have very narrow double doors and narrow luggage racks and the EMR ones they have a high density seating so they feel longer than the lower density 170s with larger luggage racks and wider doors.

Last Sunday the 09:18 Nottingham to Norwich was formed of 170204/531 and continually and annoyingly lost time.

Did it lose time because it had to stop twice or is there manual SDO Nottingham - Norwich for 5 or 6 cars?

 

[MikeWM]

158s have very narrow double doors and narrow luggage racks and the EMR ones they have a high density seating so they feel longer than the lower density 170s with larger luggage racks and wider doors.

Yeah, that's probably why.

What's the seating capacity of a 2-car EMR 158 vs. a 2-car 170? Does the latter differ depending on where it previously came from? (The ex-LM *feel* very low on seats, the ex-GA *feel* a bit denser, but I'd be surprised if either had the same capacity as the 158s). It seems surprisingly hard to find any source giving this info.

 

[rocrat]

Yeah, that's probably why.

What's the seating capacity of a 2-car EMR 158 vs. a 2-car 170? Does the latter differ depending on where it previously came from? (The ex-LM *feel* very low on seats, the ex-GA *feel* a bit denser, but I'd be surprised if either had the same capacity as the 158s). It seems surprisingly hard to find any source giving this info.

I know they differ quite a lot

The ex-TfW trains have declassified 1st for example! Lovely seats for doing TTF-MAN, but less useful if you're just trying to cram everyone in ELY-PBO!

 

[dk1]

158s have very narrow double doors and narrow luggage racks and the EMR ones they have a high density seating so they feel longer than the lower density 170s with larger luggage racks and wider doors.

Did it lose time because it had to stop twice or is there manual SDO Nottingham - Norwich for 5 or 6 cars?

No idea. Everything just seemed to take time delaying us behind.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

On looking it up, I've very surprised to see that a class 170 carriage is longer than a 158. Possibly it is due to the position of the doors, but 158s feel considerably longer to me, at least on the inside.

Platform 5 has class 158 at 22.57m and 170 as either 23.61 or 23.62m.
The extra length of the 170 is probably explained by the sloping cab front and the sticking-out anti-collision things (to give them their technical name!)

Yeah, that's probably why.

What's the seating capacity of a 2-car EMR 158 vs. a 2-car 170? Does the latter differ depending on where it previously came from? (The ex-LM *feel* very low on seats, the ex-GA *feel* a bit denser, but I'd be surprised if either had the same capacity as the 158s). It seems surprisingly hard to find any source giving this info.

The same source has an EMR 158 at 74 seats in the DMSL(A) and 68+3 tip-up in the DMSL(B), so 145 all in.
Ex-Anglia 2-car 170/2 at 57 for the DMSL and 9 former first plus 53 standard in the DMCL, so 119 altogether.
Ex-WM 170/5 55 in the DMSL(A) and 67 in the DMSL(B), total 122.
There are other variations depending where the units came from. So the wider doors and 1/3 and 2/3 door arrangement on the 170 cuts capacity quite a bit.

 

[MikeWM]

There are other variations depending where the units came from. So the wider doors and 1/3 and 2/3 door arrangement on the 170 cuts capacity quite a bit.

Thanks for that. Can't say this was top of my list of 'routes where a capacity reduction is a good plan', but it seems it is happening anyway.

 

[RailWonderer]

Thanks for that. Can't say this was top of my list of 'routes where a capacity reduction is a good plan', but it seems it is happening anyway.

Dwell times on 158s/159s are way worse though so there are trade offs. As long as 170s run doubled on busier diagrams and in singles on quieter diagrams they often have plenty of space. Can't complain especially as their legroom is better even if the cushions are feeling flat especially on the ex-LM ones as of late.

 

[Class 170101]

Dwell times on 158s/159s are way worse though so there are trade offs. As long as 170s run doubled on busier diagrams and in singles on quieter diagrams they often have plenty of space. Can't complain especially as their legroom is better even if the cushions are feeling flat especially on the ex-LM ones as of late.

Hopefully 3 cars east of Nottingham and 6 cars to the west so a gain all round. Not convinced the six cars is needed east of Nottingham but three is certainly needed.

 

[chubs]

I haven't used it for awhile now but there always was a healthy loading from Norwich. A lot of people here value the direct route, they might go via London if the advances are a lot cheaper. If there was more capacity on the direct they could have more advances?

 

[Julia]

Some pretty healthy loadings between Nottingham and Grantham too, especially as the intervals between them and the Skegnesses are very uneven (eastbound, typically 9/51 minute gaps leaving Nottingham).

 

[duffield]

I wonder if loadings for Nottingham to Grantham will increase measurably when the hourly Grantham to York/Newcastle service starts in December. It's a good connection northbound, and much better than trying to cram onto a Cross Country service going via Sheffield and Leeds.

 

[Llandudno]

I wonder if loadings for Nottingham to Grantham will increase measurably when the hourly Grantham to York/Newcastle service starts in December. It's a good connection northbound, and much better than trying to cram onto a Cross Country service going via Sheffield and Leeds.

Might depend on how much LNER charge for the privilege…!

 

[transportphoto]

I wonder if loadings for Nottingham to Grantham will increase measurably when the hourly Grantham to York/Newcastle service starts in December. It's a good connection northbound, and much better than trying to cram onto a Cross Country service going via Sheffield and Leeds.

Remember that with the East Coast recast, timings may not align as well as one would hope. Absolute potential for increased passenger follow but remains to be seen if connections helpfully align.

 

[rocrat]

Late Western Railway ended up aligning me a treat for my final connection last night!
I always think EMR has one of the best pride liveries!

 

[duffield]

Might depend on how much LNER charge for the privilege…!

At present with the two hourly York service from Grantham, via LNER seems about £10 cheaper than XC for an advance single Nottingham to York; split tickets are about the same price, and fully flexible tickets are only slightly more expensive (£5) on LNER. So LNER looks like a good choice if those sort of prices still hold in December (it's also nearly 30 minutes faster).

 

[ChrisC]

I wonder if loadings for Nottingham to Grantham will increase measurably when the hourly Grantham to York/Newcastle service starts in December. It's a good connection northbound, and much better than trying to cram onto a Cross Country service going via Sheffield and Leeds.

Even at a slightly higher cost it’s certainly a route that I would use. I do everything I can to avoid XC when travelling to Yorkshire, the NE and Scotland from Nottingham. Northbound connections at Grantham for Newcastle and Edinburgh have been almost non existent and the connection onto the 2 hourly York train doesn’t allow for more than a few minutes late running. Last summer I travelled up very early morning from Hucknall to Aberdeen changing at Worksop, Retford and Edinburgh as via Grantham was not at all convenient.

 

[bunnahabhain]

It's a decision made by the events committee to utilise the fleet to best advantage to shift passengers over to LNER services from Nottingham to Grantham and Peterborough. The strengthening was previous focused on Skegness which missed the connections, so it was changed to the Norwich route. There should be 5 services in each direction that are strengthened, some are now booked 4, 5 or 6 cars on a Saturday and Sunday but only during MML blocks. On a Sunday two ECS movements are run in service (AM to Grantham and PM to Peterborough) to provide additional seats.

The only caveat really is that it won't ever be on a diagram that starts or ends at Norwich.

 

[duffield]

Even at a slightly higher cost it’s certainly a route that I would use. I do everything I can to avoid XC when travelling to Yorkshire, the NE and Scotland from Nottingham. Northbound connections at Grantham for Newcastle and Edinburgh have been almost non existent and the connection onto the 2 hourly York train doesn’t allow for more than a few minutes late running. Last summer I travelled up very early morning from Hucknall to Aberdeen changing at Worksop, Retford and Edinburgh as via Grantham was not at all convenient.

As discussed previously, the Grantham connections improve to hourly for York/Newcastle from December, but it's true it is and will be a bit tight. The connecting service from Nottingham often seems to arrive at least a few minutes late which makes it a little bit stressful. FWIW I had a look at the data for a recent month (Mon-Fri) and the connection worked 17 times out of 20. Once it was missed by about a minute, and twice by a mile due to the incoming service from Sheffield being very late. At least when that happens you can potentially switch to the Newark option below if your ticket allows.

The via Newark option works very well at times, particularly if you're going further north. It's a perfectly fine 12 minute trot across Newark if you're mobile and travelling light, and with 2tph from Nottingham to Newark fairly well spaced you can potentially chose between allowing a generous or just adequate connection time.

 

[saismee]

Late Western Railway ended up aligning me a treat for my final connection last night!
I always think EMR has one of the best pride liveries!

Definitely one of the better pride liveries. TfL might take the cake for the most absolutely awful clashing colours I've ever seen.