GTR Class 377/387 cascade updates 2026

[Class15]

What does 'utterly rammed' mean in this context

People left on the platform

 

[physics34]

Southern needs a net gain of units from this cascade, very urgently. 17:00 London Victoria to Epsom Downs - utterly rammed leaving Clapham Junction.

Suspect there must have been other cancellations. There should be the 16.45 and 17.15 Suttons either side of that Epsom Downs, so normally is 'bareable'. Pre 2018 there wouldve been the odd extra Vic to Selhurst also.

 

[cactustwirly]

IIRC, it was 4tph to Caterham but 4tph to Coulsdon Town, of which 2tph went forward to Tattenham Corner, no?

The Coulsdon Town services were separate from the Caterham and Tattenham Corner services It was a stopping service via Brockley.

The additional 2tph to Caterham was a stopping train via Peckham Rye and separate from the splitting/joining service

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The Coulsdon Town services were separate from the Caterham and Tattenham Corner services It was a stopping service via Brockley.

The additional 2tph to Caterham was a stopping train via Peckham Rye and separate from the splitting/joining service

Yes I’m well aware but I was talking about what the branches received independently.

 

[Baji]

Southern needs a net gain of units from this cascade, very urgently. 17:00 London Victoria to Epsom Downs - utterly rammed leaving Clapham Junction.

I suppose they could increase these services in the peak hour to increase from 8 cars to 10

 

[JonathanH]

I suppose they could increase these services in the peak hour to increase from 8 cars to 10

Only by reallocating units off another service.

 

[paul1609]

Southern needs a net gain of units from this cascade, very urgently. 17:00 London Victoria to Epsom Downs - utterly rammed leaving Clapham Junction.

It's not just London some of the Evening Peak Brighton to Southampton services are full and standing from Brighton with more trying to join at Hove and Portslade, passengers thin out after Worthing.

 

[JonathanH]

It's not just London some of the Evening Peak Brighton to Southampton services are full and standing from Brighton with more trying to join at Hove and Portslade, passengers thin out after Worthing.

These short distance passenger flows are a real problem for the railway to deal with. Brighton to Southampton may never need more than a four coach train across most of its distance, but then proves inadequate for the short distance flow out of Brighton. On a two track railway, the longer distance service has to play its part in moving the short distance passenger flow.

 

[Robski]

According to a GTR press release, 387101-387114 are being retained at Great Northern. 7 units will be split between Hornsey and Lovers Walk depots as “maintenance holdings”. Everything else to Southern.

 

[brad465]

According to a GTR press release, 387101-387114 are being retained at Great Northern. 7 units will be split between Hornsey and Lovers Walk depots as “maintenance holdings”. Everything else to Southern.

If I've counted correctly, that's 15 units to Southern, not including those 7. If the 2 units that have already moved are not in that total, Southern will have receive a total of 17 units, which would mean a net gain of only 4 units after all the 13x 377s move to Southeastern.

 

[JonathanH]

If I've counted correctly, that's 15 units to Southern, not including those 7. If the 2 units that have already moved are not in that total, Southern will have receive a total of 17 units, which would mean a net gain of only 4 units after all the 13x 377s move to Southeastern.

Isn't it a reasonable assumption that at least half of the 7 'floating' units work for Southern? That would then be a gain of 8, rather than 4 units.

 

[Robski]

If I've counted correctly, that's 15 units to Southern, not including those 7. If the 2 units that have already moved are not in that total, Southern will have receive a total of 17 units, which would mean a net gain of only 4 units after all the 13x 377s move to Southeastern.

The press release contains the following:

Cascading Class 387s

GTR has a total combined fleet of 65 Class 387 units (32 Class 387/1s; 27 Class 387/2s; 6 Class 387/3s) which in future will be split between its Great Northern, Southern and Gatwick Express brands. By the end of the introduction of 30 Class 379s and the cascade of 13 Class 377 units to Southeastern, GTR intends that the 65 Class 387s will be split as follows:

• 12 units will be required for use on Great Northern routes
• 46 units will be required for use on Southern and Gatwick Express routes
• The remaining seven units will be split between Hornsey and Lovers Walk depots as maintenance holdings including planned overhaul and ETCS digital signalling fitment programme. The flexibility of the dual voltage fleet enables us to be agile as demand requires.

It is expected that 387101 – 387114 will remain with Great Northern and the remainder (24 units in total) move from Great Northern to Southern, however the exact number will depend on the maintenance holdings as described above.

So it appears that the majority of the “maintenance holdings” units will be at Lovers Walk.

 

[43096]

The press release contains the following:

So it appears that the majority of the “maintenance holdings” units will be at Lovers Walk.

It seems fairly obvious. There are 65 units, of which 12 will be diagrammed on Great Northern and 46 on Southern/GatEx. The remaining 7 are maintenance sets, of which normally 2 at Hornsey and 5 at Brighton, but ability to flex between north and south maintenance allocations as needed (which ultimately will be restricted by ETCS implementation).

 

[xxjcz]

The press release contains the following:

So it appears that the majority of the “maintenance holdings” units will be at Lovers Walk.

What is exactly do they mean by “maintenance holdings”? Does that mean those 7 units can work for both gn and Sn?

 

[JonathanH]

What is exactly do they mean by “maintenance holdings”? Does that mean those 7 units can work for both gn and Sn?

Yes, rather than having maintenance spares on both sides.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Southern's via Norbury services do seem to be busier than the Crystal Palace services. The trains sharply empty out after Streatham Common though.

 

[wls1]

which 387s have moved over to southern so far? 128 + 302 are together on Victoria - Eastbourne today

 

[bramling]

which 387s have moved over to southern so far? 128 + 302 are together on Victoria - Eastbourne today

I have it down as 387123/126/128/129/302.

The GWR ones went over but came back.

As an aside, AFAIK 387101/107 are long-term out of use.

 

[Class455]

There appears to be another cascade move planned for this afternoon:

Realtime Trains | 5Q45 1511 Hornsey E.M.U.D. to Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D | 24/02/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q45 1511 departure from Hornsey E.M.U.D. to Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D on 24/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[brad465]

There appears to be another cascade move planned for this afternoon:

Realtime Trains | 5Q45 1511 Hornsey E.M.U.D. to Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D | 24/02/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q45 1511 departure from Hornsey E.M.U.D. to Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D on 24/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Is it a cascade, or is it a maintenance move in reference to an earlier post about a pool of units being based out of both Hornsey and Lovers Walk for maintenance/resilience?

 

[Class455]

Is it a cascade, or is it a maintenance move in reference to an earlier post about a pool of units being based out of both Hornsey and Lovers Walk for maintenance/resilience?

It’s a GB Railfreight crewed move so I would assume a cascade. Not sure what units are on it though.

EDIT: Been told it’s 387207 and 387223 on 5Q45, so it’s just two GX units heading home from maintenance.

 

[SolomonSouth]

So far, 4X 466 have gone to make way for 377s - 007, 014, 025 and 037. This is nowhere near enough carriages (the 377s will need 52 carriages’ worth of space and only 8 have gone) so I assume more 466 (and potentially some 465, whether BREL or GEC I don’t know) are scheduled to go?

In theory they could simply get rid of all 466 (IIRC there are 25 remaining and they are definitely seem to be focusing on binning them first) and that would line up pretty well with a net loss of just 6 carriages. If needed they could keep around 3X 466 to make it evens. However, I’m not in the know on this.

 

[brad465]

So far, 4X 466 have gone to make way for 377s - 007, 014, 025 and 037. This is nowhere near enough carriages (the 377s will need 52 carriages’ worth of space and only 8 have gone) so I assume more 466 (and potentially some 465, whether BREL or GEC I don’t know) are scheduled to go?

In theory they could simply get rid of all 466 (IIRC there are 25 remaining and they are definitely seem to be focusing on binning them first) and that would line up pretty well with a net loss of just 6 carriages. If needed they could keep around 3X 466 to make it evens. However, I’m not in the know on this.

On another post somewhere someone said 16x 465/9s and 16x 466s are on lease for another couple of years at least, so presumably more than 0-3x 446s will be left.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So far, 4X 466 have gone to make way for 377s - 007, 014, 025 and 037. This is nowhere near enough carriages (the 377s will need 52 carriages’ worth of space and only 8 have gone) so I assume more 466 (and potentially some 465, whether BREL or GEC I don’t know) are scheduled to go?

In theory they could simply get rid of all 466 (IIRC there are 25 remaining and they are definitely seem to be focusing on binning them first) and that would line up pretty well with a net loss of just 6 carriages. If needed they could keep around 3X 466 to make it evens. However, I’m not in the know on this.

You cannot run 10car services without needing 466s. I assume there still are 10car services ?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You cannot run 10car services without needing 466s. I assume there still are 10car services ?

Yes but 376s and 707s work most of them. There are still ten carriage Networker formations but fewer than a few years ago.

 

[Bikeman78]

You cannot run 10car services without needing 466s. I assume there still are 10car services ?

I believe there are 16 x 10 car formations Tuesday to Thursday but only three on Mondays and Fridays.

 

[brad465]

I believe there are 16 x 10 car formations Tuesday to Thursday but only three on Mondays and Fridays.

There's more than 3x 466s in use on Mondays; Monday has a number in use between 3 and 16, with a couple of 10-car Tunbridge Wells' allocations and some 6-car services, among the handful of 10-car Networker Metro allocations. There are also occasional 8-car services with 2x 466s in the formation on any day, although these are ad-hoc.

 

[SolomonSouth]

You cannot run 10car services without needing 466s. I assume there still are 10car services ?

There are, but nowhere near as many as there were.
As @TT-ONR-NRN was alluding to, if they were to remove all 466, they could deploy a higher number of 376 and 707 to cover more 10 car diagrams. If they are still struggling for capacity they could make some 8-car diagrams 12 car (I know for a fact that lines down to Dartford and Sevenoaks are 12 car cleared. It used to happen, it just doesn't anymore. However if they needed to, they could make it happen again).

There's more than 3x 466s in use on Mondays; Monday has a number in use between 3 and 16, with a couple of 10-car Tunbridge Wells' allocations and some 6-car services, among the handful of 10-car Networker Metro allocations. There are also occasional 8-car services with 2x 466s in the formation on any day, although these are ad-hoc.

The 2X 466 + 465 services could easily be made 2X 465. The 6-car services would be slightly trickier - I think platform lengths prohibit 8 car down the Maidstone line, though they are only 4 car on Monday and Friday, so making it 4 car every day would be doable. Alternatively (and probably ideally), you could replace any Ashford Networkers with 8 car 377s/375s (I think both have SDO).

My point is, getting rid of all 466, although it may not seem ideal, is nowhere near impossible by any stretch, and could fairly easily be done with some unit shuffling and diagram alterations.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There are, but nowhere near as many as there were.
As @TT-ONR-NRN was alluding to, if they were to remove all 466, they could deploy a higher number of 376 and 707 to cover more 10 car diagrams. If they are still struggling for capacity they could make some 8-car diagrams 12 car (I know for a fact that lines down to Dartford and Sevenoaks are 12 car cleared. It used to happen, it just doesn't anymore. However if they needed to, they could make it happen again).

The 2X 466 + 465 services could easily be made 2X 465. The 6-car services would be slightly trickier - I think platform lengths prohibit 8 car down the Maidstone line, though they are only 4 car on Monday and Friday, so making it 4 car every day would be doable. Alternatively (and probably ideally), you could replace any Ashford Networkers with 8 car 377s/375s (I think both have SDO).

My point is, getting rid of all 466, although it may not seem ideal, is nowhere near impossible by any stretch, and could fairly easily be done with some unit shuffling and diagram alterations.

But I have seen quite a few services using 466+465+465 this year, enough to make me believe South Eastern cannot cover all 10car diagrams with 376 and 707s. There are 30 class 707s which are new arrivals (making up 15 10car trains) so that would theoretically allow removal of 15 class 466s AND 30 class 465s assuming no service changes.

 

[Bikeman78]

There are, but nowhere near as many as there were.
As @TT-ONR-NRN was alluding to, if they were to remove all 466, they could deploy a higher number of 376 and 707 to cover more 10 car diagrams. If they are still struggling for capacity they could make some 8-car diagrams 12 car (I know for a fact that lines down to Dartford and Sevenoaks are 12 car cleared. It used to happen, it just doesn't anymore. However if they needed to, they could make it happen again).

The 2X 466 + 465 services could easily be made 2X 465. The 6-car services would be slightly trickier - I think platform lengths prohibit 8 car down the Maidstone line, though they are only 4 car on Monday and Friday, so making it 4 car every day would be doable. Alternatively (and probably ideally), you could replace any Ashford Networkers with 8 car 377s/375s (I think both have SDO).

My point is, getting rid of all 466, although it may not seem ideal, is nowhere near impossible by any stretch, and could fairly easily be done with some unit shuffling and diagram alterations.

I think the class 376 and 707 are already intensively diagrammed. I had forgotten about the six car Networkers to Maidstone. I believe that the plan is for all trains on that line to be worked by class 377 once the cascade is complete. So it will be interesting to see if the current six cars run as four or eight.